Was Burke involved?

[eileenhawkeye]

The thing is, I do believe the Ramseys would cover for Burke, but I feel like they'd do it belatedly like most parents in that situation. They initially try to save the other child, play kind of dumb to what actually happened and blame it on a fall, and then vehemently defend the other child when the police start investigating, and try to screw up the investigation. It's harder for me to believe that they immediately went into an elaborate staging route, although if they had suspicions about something going wrong and had been thinking about it a lot, I could see it.

The murder also doesn't seem brutal to me - it does kind of seem like most things were done after the fact, whether as staging or by a predator who accidentally killed her, or for some other reason. It seems like she was unconscious when this was going on, and yet it wasn't like she was brutalized by someone taking advantage of the fact that she wouldn't cry out or resist. It does seem staged. I just can't figure it out.

I certainly don't believe Burke did it all himself. He's turned out fine and I don't believe he's a violent sociopath, and I hope he's not involved at all and I feel terrible he's been dragged into it. But there is the possibility that there was some ongoing sexual contact and then he hit her on the head and that's how his parents covered it up. I think a lot more children molest and assault siblings than we realize, without becoming so predatory that we find out about it. It can be a fairly isolated thing due to the detachment that comes with childhood - they never think it out, just act on impulse - may not realize molestation is wrong, may whack a kid with a stick because they just don't really consider the consequences and they're mad or think it's cool. It may not be calculated violence.

But when we see cases where the child is killed, and it is blamed on a fall, the parents (or in a lot of these cases---mom's boyfriend) tend to be young and uneducated. Shouldn't we expect a wealthy couple to behave differently than some 23-year-old babysitting his girlfriend's child?

The ones who blame it on a fall are extremely dumb, and are usually arrested at the hospital.

 

[Chewy]

One has to prove the advice was given. Who is going to admit it? The client? The lawyer? The only unethical conduct I've seen is the lawyer in the DA's office who refused to subpoena the long distance records and who later went to work for Ramsey's attorney.

JMO

It's not that no lawyer is going to do it, certainly that wouldn't surprise any of us.

It's just that you keep adding people to the conspiracy on and on and on for it to be that Burke was involved.

A. Burke had to do "something" that was so horrendous that the parents would be frozen in shock.

B. Then Person One John Ramsey or Patsy Ramsey would have to be willing to be evil and corrupt and lie to the police and deny Jonbenet normal parental response

C. Then Person Two would also have to come upon the situation and instead talking sense into Person One and continue along the path of corruption

D. Then one of them needed to call a lawyer WHO ALSO would need to ignore common decency and normal response and ALSO continue along the line of corruption.

E. Then all parties involved would have to continue along lying to police


And even if this was all achieved by some stretch of the imagination


F. Burke Ramsey at 9 years old would have to deceive professional law enforcement for over a year and never change his story AND stand before a Grand Jury and not have anyone figure out what happened.


I'm sorry but it's just a ridiculous theory IMO.


I think people established suspicion and distrust of the parents for all sorts of reasons including their attitudes "not being right" and Patsy being a pagent mom, not to mention jealousy of their affluence etc.

And bottom line people are examining the evidence in hind site and readjusting all of it to make it make sense.

It's a form of cognitive dissonance.

If this was all premeditated then you might have some leg to stand on but I can't believe that all this happened in lockstep evil as the result of an accidental death by a 9 year old boy.


It makes no sense.

 

[DeDee]

The Judge may not have found her credible. Wasn't that lawsuit tossed out by the Judge?

A reporter for Vanity Fair said according to a report Arndt prepared, Ramsey did leave the house.

The ransom note warned the couple not to contact the police but to await a phone call between 8 and 10 that morning. Arndt wrote in her report that "between 10:30 and noon, John Ramsey left the house to pick up the family mail," which she later saw him open and read. At one p.m., when no call had rung, Arndt asked Ramsey and Fleet White to follow her to the kitchen. An investigator describes the scene: " She said, ' I want you to search this house. From top to bottom.' She had barely finished speaking when John Ramsey went directly to a small broken window on the north side of the house and paused.
http://bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html

A reporter for Vanity Fair said

It is helpful if you know the reporter's source for the Vanity Fair article. The source was not at the R home when LA was there. The source was no where near Boulder when the VF story broke.

If I saw LAs sig on the document stating she witnessed that "between 10:30 and noon, John Ramsey left the house to pick up the family mail," which she later saw him open and read; I still would not believe it.

The 755 15th Street address had a mail slot in the front door which prevented the residents from a need to leave their cozy homes to venture outside to the mail drop.


OMO

 

[MyBelle]

It is helpful if you know the reporter's source for the Vanity Fair article. The source was not at the R home when LA was there. The source was no where near Boulder when the VF story broke.

If I saw LAs sig on the document stating she witnessed that "between 10:30 and noon, John Ramsey left the house to pick up the family mail," which she later saw him open and read; I still would not believe it.

The 755 15th Street address had a mail slot in the front door which prevented the residents from a need to leave their cozy homes to venture outside to the mail drop.


OMO

The Vanity Fair reporter was in Boulder and spoke to investigators. She referenced a police report. I doubt she would do that if the police report didn't exist.

Arndt was fired. All the other officers aren't lying:

Halaby said on the way to police headquarters, another officer riding with Arndt told her it would be a mistake to provide the note to the attorney.

"That is a lie," Arndt responded.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/07aarnd.html

 

[DeDee]

The Vanity Fair reporter was in Boulder and spoke to investigators. She referenced a police report. I doubt she would do that if the police report didn't exist.

Arndt was fired. All the other officers aren't lying:

Halaby said on the way to police headquarters, another officer riding with Arndt told her it would be a mistake to provide the note to the attorney.

"That is a lie," Arndt responded.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/07aarnd.html

Good gosh, never accused BPD officers of lying.

But now that you mentioned it, there was an oddness about LA. Det. LA made many errors that were not commendable. She was most certainly not the VF reporter's source.

 

[MyBelle]

Good gosh, never accused BPD officers of lying.

But now that you mentioned it, there was an oddness about LA. Det. LA made many errors that were not commendable. She was most certainly not the VF reporter's source.

I think one of the other officers leaked it to the reporter because it was so over the top wrong.

 

[gramcracker]

Hmmm why? Maybe Patsy wanted her in some clean underwear for a change? Maybe she didn't want to run back upstairs to fetch a pair of stained up ones she usually wore? Maybe knowing how much JonBenet wanted those panties, Patsy wanted to appease her somehow in death?

I don't know. I never claimed to have all the answers. I prefer to discus logical possibilities that fit the theory from all the other extraneous information available.

that is so PR, like the "for company" parts of the house being too-too while the rest was tacky, disorganized and unfinished. like the toilet paper rolls being kept on the floor instead of being hung within easy reach for a child. every single pair of underwear in JB's drawers had fecal stains but they weren't "for company" so that was no biggie. as opposed to the pristine pair of unders PR decided her daughter would be wearing when her body was discovered

 

[gramcracker]

When one is faced with the unexpected death of their child, the last thing on their mind is social status. A mother does not accept the finality of a child's death immediately, nor "soon". The concept of parental instinct, alone, dismantles all BDI theories of which I am familiar...

re BBM: not when the death is caused by another of their children, under circumstances which are neglectful or could have been prevented

 

[DeDee]

The thing is, I do believe the Ramseys would cover for Burke, but I feel like they'd do it belatedly like most parents in that situation. They initially try to save the other child, play kind of dumb to what actually happened and blame it on a fall, and then vehemently defend the other child when the police start investigating, and try to screw up the investigation. It's harder for me to believe that they immediately went into an elaborate staging route, although if they had suspicions about something going wrong and had been thinking about it a lot, I could see it.

The murder also doesn't seem brutal to me - it does kind of seem like most things were done after the fact, whether as staging or by a predator who accidentally killed her, or for some other reason. It seems like she was unconscious when this was going on, and yet it wasn't like she was brutalized by someone taking advantage of the fact that she wouldn't cry out or resist. It does seem staged. I just can't figure it out.

RSBM for topic

The murder also doesn't seem brutal to me

Brutal:
Cruel
Merciless
Harsh
Ruthless

Let me ask ya this.

Would fatally wounding a 6yowf with a stun gun, wrapping a nylon cord around her neck and tying it tightly until an 1/8" furrow is created, and knocking her over the head so hard it displaces a portion of her skull, and she still isn't visibly bleeding; hence, add a vaginal assault before she dies and that would not be a brutal enough death for ya?


RIP JBR

 

[tezi]

Just for the record, Steve Thomas admits to being one of the sources for the Vanity Fair article. There are other BPD officers that were also, they just can't admit their involvement.

JMO

 

[tezi]

Brutal:
Cruel
Merciless
Harsh
Ruthless

Let me ask ya this.

Would fatally wounding a 6yowf with a stun gun, wrapping a nylon cord around her neck and tying it tightly until an 1/8" furrow is created, and knocking her over the head so hard it displaces a portion of her skull, and she still isn't visibly bleeding; hence, add a vaginal assault before she dies and that would not be a brutal enough death for ya?


RIP JBR

BBM: A stun gun WAS NOT used. According to Kolar the stun gun manufacturer said the marks on JBR were NOT consistent with marks that their product would inflict. I don't have the exact page right now, as it is too early in the morning for me to go wake my husband up to find my book, but it's in there.

JMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

BDI breaks at the first hurdle.

It just doesn't withstand logical analysis.

It rests on the Ramseys "saving" one child (from what?) and euthanising the other, as well as cold bloodedly interfering with a corpse, raping it after or during death.

What caring parent would do this?

 

[Mama2JML]

From the "intruder theories" thread:

Apparently, he whacked her in the leg too.

I assume you are referring to Burke & JonBenét? He "whacked her in the leg", with a golf club or something else? When & according to?... Please elaborate.

 

[Chewy]

BDI breaks at the first hurdle.

It just doesn't withstand logical analysis.

It rests on the Ramseys "saving" one child (from what?) and euthanising the other, as well as cold bloodedly interfering with a corpse, raping it after or during death.

What caring parent would do this?

Forget "caring parent" even bad parents wouldn't do this. Only evil psychopaths who apparently also convenient have an evil psychopath lawyer and a not socio or psychopath but "troubled" son who is a master liar and manipulator.

It's out of a movie or something.

 

[Chewy]

BBM: A stun gun WAS NOT used. According to Kolar the stun gun manufacturer said the marks on JBR were NOT consistent with marks that their product would inflict. I don't have the exact page right now, as it is too early in the morning for me to go wake my husband up to find my book, but it's in there.

JMO

[modsnip]


The stun gun is not what makes it brutal. How does this actually need to be explained.[modsnip] .

 

[Linda7NJ]

From the "intruder theories" thread:
I assume you are referring to Burke & JonBenét? He "whacked her in the leg", with a golf club or something else? When & according to?... Please elaborate.

According to Patsy.

It's in the transcript of one of the police interviews. Scroll up a bit above my post on the other thread and click the CandyRose link. Iirc that's where I read it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Linda7NJ]

Was thinking this morning, iirc didn't Ramsey lawyers fight like hell to keep the indictments sealed?
They lost.
Only a few pages were released.
Now they're bluffing IMO demanding the entire report be released... Knowing that can not be. The law doesn't permitted it, the law protects Burke.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tawny]

Malice is what makes something brutal, cruel, merciless, etc.

We don't know that the initial whack to the head was more than an accident or a "too hard" mean sibling whack to the head. We don't know that whoever garroted her and ultimately caused her death even knew if she was alive.

Doing all of that with knowledge that it would end in death is malicious. Doing it all with no knowledge does not indicate malice.

I think it takes a certain level of disconnection from emotion for a person to consider that what seems like a brutal murder could have actually been an accident and then a staged cover up.

I don't necessarily think the Ramsey's are evil. I think PR was ignorant and selfish, JR is cold and distant, and BR is a boy who grew up in a dysfunctional home. JMO, obviously.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM: A stun gun WAS NOT used. According to Kolar the stun gun manufacturer said the marks on JBR were NOT consistent with marks that their product would inflict. I don't have the exact page right now, as it is too early in the morning for me to go wake my husband up to find my book, but it's in there.

JMO

That is just a difference of opinion. Not fact. We have experts who say it was and some that says it wasn't.
IT is a wash in my opinion and you just have to decide for yourself if you believe there was a stun gun or not.

I do believe there was a stun gun used. JMO

 

[Tawny]

I believe the manufacturer of the stun gun who says the marks do not match what their product would do.