Was Burke involved?

[Myself]

I posted this on another thread.
If Burke were a budding sex offender & killed his sister then where are his other crimes?
Generally child offenders commit other crimes, no?

 

[DeeDee249]

I posted this on another thread.
If Burke were a budding sex offender & killed his sister then where are his other crimes?
Generally child offenders commit other crimes, no?

I doubt he is/was a sex offender, budding or otherwise. Incest, which by its nature occurs in families, rarely expands to involve other victims.
Generally, child offenders do not commit other crimes. I can't think of a single case (as far as those that were public knowledge).
Sexual exploration between child siblings is common, murdering them is rare. I doubt that head blow was meant to kill her. It was meant to silence her, IMO.

 

[geojeffrey]

My gut tells me Burke was involved. I don't think he intended to cause her harm, rather, he was careless and reckless like young kids can be, and things got out of hand. Even preteen kids have sexual urges and this very well could have started out as innocent-ish playing and experimentation. Our legal system recognizes that children are not responsible for their actions in the same ways that adults are.

Nothing else explains PR and JR's weird and bizarre behavior as well as this theory. Neither would have covered for each other as much as they would cover for their surviving child.

 

[Stef88]

I think Burke knows something but not to sure about being actually involved, but fater reading that quote from the Thomas book I think he definitely knows something!

 

[UKGuy]

I think Burke knows something but not to sure about being actually involved, but fater reading that quote from the Thomas book I think he definitely knows something!

Stef88,
I agree, Burke knows something, but what? If BDI is correct, why did Burke say JonBenet walked into the house? Thats not in line with his parents version of events, which you might expect if BDI was correct?

And of course if BDI is correct we will never hear from Burke, he knows he has to remain silent forever. So one way or the other those with an interest in this case should eventually find out who did it?



.

 

[Stef88]

I'm not sure if I believe BDI, but I definitely think he knows something. It is weird that JR and PR shipped Burke off to a friends house so quickly after everything happened, wouldn't you want your other child right next to you? If only Burke would talk, what he might tell...

 

[sandover]

I'm not sure if I believe BDI, but I definitely think he knows something. It is weird that JR and PR shipped Burke off to a friends house so quickly after everything happened, wouldn't you want your other child right next to you? If only Burke would talk, what he might tell...

I enjoy questioning people who don't know anything about this case about some basic facts. It helps me reconnect with how normal people view things pre Ramsey PR assault...

Of the many things that make no sense, calling over friends and a minister at 6 in the morning while shipping a son off away from his parents -- these things make NO SENSE to anyone I tell about the crime.

You think your daughter is kidnapped -- you immediately INVITE FRIENDS over and PUSH YOUR SON OUT OF THE HOUSE?

Everyone I speak to says they would have called the police and waited for their instructions. At most, they might have called a friend for support later that day.

No one would have let their child out of their sight.

 

[UKGuy]

I enjoy questioning people who don't know anything about this case about some basic facts. It helps me reconnect with how normal people view things pre Ramsey PR assault...

Of the many things that make no sense, calling over friends and a minister at 6 in the morning while shipping a son off away from his parents -- these things make NO SENSE to anyone I tell about the crime.

You think your daughter is kidnapped -- you immediately INVITE FRIENDS over and PUSH YOUR SON OUT OF THE HOUSE?

Everyone I speak to says they would have called the police and waited for their instructions. At most, they might have called a friend for support later that day.

No one would have let their child out of their sight.

sandover,

You think your daughter is kidnapped -- you immediately INVITE FRIENDS over and PUSH YOUR SON OUT OF THE HOUSE?

Just shows you how premeditated it all was. But one bit went wrong, nobody found JonBenet.

So John had too, with Fleet White looking on. Fleet White had now looked twice into the Wine-cellar, you would think that was enough, no, he went back down and had another look. One thing is certain, he must have realized it was not a proper crime-scene. Did he notice the barbie doll, and nightgown, along with the partially opened gifts. He had a look at the duct-tape too, I wonder what he told the police about what he saw on his first visit?


.

 

[sandover]

sandover,

Just shows you how premeditated it all was. But one bit went wrong, nobody found JonBenet.

So John had too, with Fleet White looking on. Fleet White had now looked twice into the Wine-cellar, you would think that was enough, no, he went back down and had another look. One thing is certain, he must have realized it was not a proper crime-scene. Did he notice the barbie doll, and nightgown, along with the partially opened gifts. He had a look at the duct-tape too, I wonder what he told the police about what he saw on his first visit?


.

Forgive me for my ignorance UK Guy, but I thought Fleet had only looked in the room once and not seen anything because it was dark? He looked in twice? Or do you mean what he saw when he followed JR into the room?

 

[DeeDee249]

Forgive me for my ignorance UK Guy, but I thought Fleet had only looked in the room once and not seen anything because it was dark? He looked in twice? Or do you mean what he saw when he followed JR into the room?

FW actually looked into that room THREE times. The first time was very early that morning, shortly after he arrived at the house. That was when he couldn't find the light switch (because it was low down on the wall outside the room, in an unexpected place). When he looked in the dark room, he couldn't see JB in her white blanket, even though he should have been able to do so, with the light from the area outside the wineceller shining in.

The second time was when he and JR were told to "look around" by Det. Arndt. He was right behind JR when they entered the room. He alone was witness to everything JR did when he was in there (the lies about untying her wrists and ankles when forensics proved they were never really bound), and whether JR performed CPR as he claimed. Yet he has never spoken about it, at least not publicly. I would hope he told police.

The third time was right after JR carried JB up from the basement. Det. Arndt once again screws up by telling FW to stand by the door to the basement and not to let ANYONE go down there. Instead of doing as he was told, FW races right back down to the wineceller and further contaminates the crime scene by picking up the piece of duct tape. He tosses it back down on the blanket. We do not know what else, if anything, he touched.
Det. Armdt should have kept it under control by putting EVERYONE, the parents included, into one room with one way in or out, and standing guard with her gun drawn until reinforcements arrived. I mean, aren't police supposed ot be trained to keep a clear head in these kinds of events? Instead, she became unhinged at what was probably the first murder/dead body (certainly the first CHILD murder and body) that she ever encountered and ignored even the most basic rules of investigation. DO NOT TOUCH or MOVE THE BODY. It was already too late to prevent anyone else from touching her or moving her. but Armdt made it so much worse. Not only did she pick JB up AGAIN and move her under the Christmas tree (OMG) but she allowed JR to put an afghan over her body and threw a sweatshirt over her herself.

 

[Flatlander]

dodie20,
Yes, Burke , swung a golf club and accidentally whacked JonBenet in the face. Now note this, JonBenet was rushed to hospital immediately by her parents, where a doctor decided surgery would not be required.

Contrast this with her head injury and coma on the night of her death?



.

Yeppers and what about this per ST pg. 53:
Patsy awoke and staggered from the bedroom to the couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was over heard to ask someone quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?" When ST learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Netiher bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway? ST wondered what else might have been in the bag that was so important JR would even think to ask about it.

Also not finding the pg. @ the moment but ST stated that a gold club was found on the West side of the yard outside with a blond hair on it, must be lost within the locker full of evidence still not tested?

PG 123 - ST: Burke interview. What do you think happened to your sister? I know what happened to my sister. She was killed. But what happened? I know what happened. How was she killed? Have you talked to your parents about it?
I asked my dad, Where did you find her body? He said, In the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ..... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing gesture) or hit her on the head.The questioner Suzanne Bernhard, a child psychologist described BR descriptions as flat and indifferent. Bernhard detected no fear that the killer might come back for him or that Burke thought the family was in danger. The psychologist said it was very unusual for a child to feel safe when a sibling had beeen violently killed.

IMO - As for the head wound I come up with several scenerio's: 1) the pert was caught in the act and somebody meant to hit the pert with a golf club but moved and hit JB instead. 2) I can see Patsy putting JB in the bathtub and yanking her by the hair and accidently hitting her head on the bathtub water spout. Why did the bathroom reek of peroxide/bleach? The wound is almost an exact oblong square. Putter I believe the club is named.

 

[Stef88]

I feel bad that Arndt was repeatedly denied back-up (pathetic Boulder LE!) but honestly, telling them to search the house? The LE never should have let the Ramsey's have all those people over in the first place, seems like from day 1 Ramsey's were running this case!

 

[Flatlander]

FW actually looked into that room THREE times. The first time was very early that morning, shortly after he arrived at the house. That was when he couldn't find the light switch (because it was low down on the wall outside the room, in an unexpected place). When he looked in the dark room, he couldn't see JB in her white blanket, even though he should have been able to do so, with the light from the area outside the wineceller shining in.

The second time was when he and JR were told to "look around" by Det. Arndt. He was right behind JR when they entered the room. He alone was witness to everything JR did when he was in there (the lies about untying her wrists and ankles when forensics proved they were never really bound), and whether JR performed CPR as he claimed. Yet he has never spoken about it, at least not publicly. I would hope he told police.

The third time was right after JR carried JB up from the basement. Det. Arndt once again screws up by telling FW to stand by the door to the basement and not to let ANYONE go down there. Instead of doing as he was told, FW races right back down to the wineceller and further contaminates the crime scene by picking up the piece of duct tape. He tosses it back down on the blanket. We do not know what else, if anything, he touched.
Det. Armdt should have kept it under control by putting EVERYONE, the parents included, into one room with one way in or out, and standing guard with her gun drawn until reinforcements arrived. I mean, aren't police supposed ot be trained to keep a clear head in these kinds of events? Instead, she became unhinged at what was probably the first murder/dead body (certainly the first CHILD murder and body) that she ever encountered and ignored even the most basic rules of investigation. DO NOT TOUCH or MOVE THE BODY. It was already too late to prevent anyone else from touching her or moving her. but Armdt made it so much worse. Not only did she pick JB up AGAIN and move her under the Christmas tree (OMG) but she allowed JR to put an afghan over her body and threw a sweatshirt over her herself.

You can find the basic police procedure handbook at the library. There was NO PROTOCOL followed in this case.

 

[Flatlander]

I feel bad that Arndt was repeatedly denied back-up (pathetic Boulder LE!) but honestly, telling them to search the house? The LE never should have let the Ramsey's have all those people over in the first place, seems like from day 1 Ramsey's were running this case!

Don't feel sorry for Arndt she helped contaminate the scene of the crime, failed to take matters in control; period. And yes I believe the Ramsey's were running the show before 911 with a little help from their friends.

 

[UKGuy]

Yeppers and what about this per ST pg. 53:
Patsy awoke and staggered from the bedroom to the couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was over heard to ask someone quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?" When ST learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Netiher bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway? ST wondered what else might have been in the bag that was so important JR would even think to ask about it.

Also not finding the pg. @ the moment but ST stated that a gold club was found on the West side of the yard outside with a blond hair on it, must be lost within the locker full of evidence still not tested?

PG 123 - ST: Burke interview. What do you think happened to your sister? I know what happened to my sister. She was killed. But what happened? I know what happened. How was she killed? Have you talked to your parents about it?
I asked my dad, Where did you find her body? He said, In the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ..... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing gesture) or hit her on the head.The questioner Suzanne Bernhard, a child psychologist described BR descriptions as flat and indifferent. Bernhard detected no fear that the killer might come back for him or that Burke thought the family was in danger. The psychologist said it was very unusual for a child to feel safe when a sibling had beeen violently killed.

IMO - As for the head wound I come up with several scenerio's: 1) the pert was caught in the act and somebody meant to hit the pert with a golf club but moved and hit JB instead. 2) I can see Patsy putting JB in the bathtub and yanking her by the hair and accidently hitting her head on the bathtub water spout. Why did the bathroom reek of peroxide/bleach? The wound is almost an exact oblong square. Putter I believe the club is named.

Flatlander,
Good points. Either the golf-bag was used to spirit away forensic evidence, or the golf-club with the hair on it, is related to the golf-bag and JR does not want this to be established? After all, JR can buy hundreds of brand new golf-clubs and bags.

Although most RDI assume some kind of accident happened, its not beyond reason for JonBenet to have been deliberately killed, whacked on the head then strangled, plain and simple homicide?

The thing about the golf-club, if it was used, is that it should really have been dumped into the wine-cellar, it might just be coincidental, circumstantial evidence. Just as the peroxide/bleach smell could be, rather than doing anything with JonBenet's hair as many think, I reckon its more likely forensic evidence was being cleaned up?

Its unlikely JonBenet ever saw her bed that night. Going to bed is the R's preferred version of events, suggesting it never ever occurred. We know she was snacking pineapple at one point, shortly thereafter she is dead.

Now the R's failure to cleanup the breakfast bar, suggests they were ignorant about it, possibly Burke and JonBenet helped themselves, whilst Patsy and John prepared for the following day? If Patsy served up the pineapple, why would she neglect to remove evidence that shows JonBenet walking about after returning from the White's?

You can still have PDI, since JonBenet may have gone to bed, wet it, then awoke Patsy?

BDI is the most consistent in explaining more of the evidence, and JDI offers an explanation for Coroner Meyer's remarks about sexual contact.

Without Coroner Meyer's remarks it would be hard to argue against PDI, yet when we look hard at the evidence, it does not stack up firmly in favor of PDI. Those size-12's, the barbie-nightgown, the breakfast bar evidence, the sexual assault, all need to be factored into PDI?




.

 

[Flatlander]

Flatlander,
Good points. Either the golf-bag was used to spirit away forensic evidence, or the golf-club with the hair on it, is related to the golf-bag and JR does not want this to be established? After all, JR can buy hundreds of brand new golf-clubs and bags.

Although most RDI assume some kind of accident happened, its not beyond reason for JonBenet to have been deliberately killed, whacked on the head then strangled, plain and simple homicide?

The thing about the golf-club, if it was used, is that it should really have been dumped into the wine-cellar, it might just be coincidental, circumstantial evidence. Just as the peroxide/bleach smell could be, rather than doing anything with JonBenet's hair as many think, I reckon its more likely forensic evidence was being cleaned up?

Its unlikely JonBenet ever saw her bed that night. Going to bed is the R's preferred version of events, suggesting it never ever occurred. We know she was snacking pineapple at one point, shortly thereafter she is dead.

Now the R's failure to cleanup the breakfast bar, suggests they were ignorant about it, possibly Burke and JonBenet helped themselves, whilst Patsy and John prepared for the following day? If Patsy served up the pineapple, why would she neglect to remove evidence that shows JonBenet walking about after returning from the White's?

You can still have PDI, since JonBenet may have gone to bed, wet it, then awoke Patsy?

BDI is the most consistent in explaining more of the evidence, and JDI offers an explanation for Coroner Meyer's remarks about sexual contact.

Without Coroner Meyer's remarks it would be hard to argue against PDI, yet when we look hard at the evidence, it does not stack up firmly in favor of PDI. Those size-12's, the barbie-nightgown, the breakfast bar evidence, the sexual assault, all need to be factored into PDI?






.

I don't think JB ever went to sleep in her bed that night. This alway's makes me think of her when I see this:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b95oyhSd5ls"]To Excited To Sleep - YouTube[/ame]
Why were there hair ties all over her bed? Why would PR put JB hair in two ponytails when she was dead asleep according to the Ramsey's. Pulling and yanking on your hair is exactly what happens when you put them in ponytails and that didn't wake JB up? I wonder about the green garland found in her hair. Was it just a few strands or was it wrapped into the ponytails?

I do not think it odd that the golf club was outside; so was the baseball bat.
Burke had hit JB once before in the face with the golf club. He could have easily done it again.

The size 12 bloomies which had been wrapped for Jenny by PR. The Barbie gown probably clung to the blanket which was taken from the dryer. PR knew where this was as well. She could claim "Oh I just don't know" all she wants to but we know better.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think JB ever went to sleep in her bed that night. This alway's makes me think of her when I see this:
To Excited To Sleep - YouTube
Why were there hair ties all over her bed? Why would PR put JB hair in two ponytails when she was dead asleep according to the Ramsey's. Pulling and yanking on your hair is exactly what happens when you put them in ponytails and that didn't wake JB up? I wonder about the green garland found in her hair. Was it just a few strands or was it wrapped into the ponytails?

I do not think it odd that the golf club was outside; so was the baseball bat.
Burke had hit JB once before in the face with the golf club. He could have easily done it again.

The size 12 bloomies which had been wrapped for Jenny by PR. The Barbie gown probably clung to the blanket which was taken from the dryer. PR knew where this was as well. She could claim "Oh I just don't know" all she wants to but we know better.

Flatlander,

Why were there hair ties all over her bed?

IMO this is evidence of staging, most of it took place upstairs, then she was relocated to the basement.

The Barbie gown probably clung to the blanket which was taken from the dryer.

So when JonBenet was being wrapped in the blanket, how come they missed it? Remember the blanket had to be folded then rolled around JonBenet, papoose style, as described by John Ramsey.

I reckon the nightgown was what JonBenet was wearing when she arrived in the basement. This could have been part of a prior staging, whilst her original bedtime pajamas, e.g. pink bottoms were sneaked out of the house along with her size-6 underwear. You have to wonder what was on the size-6 or pink bottoms, that meant they had to be removed? I doubt it was urine, leaving either blood or semen. Next question is were any of the Ramseys checked for cuts or bruising? If you assume Burke Ramsey was prepubertile, who else in the Ramsey household might you conclude stained JonBenet's clothing with semen?

The size 12 bloomies which had been wrapped for Jenny by PR.

There is no evidence to support this statement. You only have Patsy's word and that is suspect, since the police showed her to be entirely inconsistent on this subject!

 

[sandover]

Flatlander,

IMO this is evidence of staging, most of it took place upstairs, then she was relocated to the basement.


So when JonBenet was being wrapped in the blanket, how come they missed it? Remember the blanket had to be folded then rolled around JonBenet, papoose style, as described by John Ramsey.

I reckon the nightgown was what JonBenet was wearing when she arrived in the basement. This could have been part of a prior staging, whilst her original bedtime pajamas, e.g. pink bottoms were sneaked out of the house along with her size-6 underwear. You have to wonder what was on the size-6 or pink bottoms, that meant they had to be removed? I doubt it was urine, leaving either blood or semen. Next question is were any of the Ramseys checked for cuts or bruising? If you assume Burke Ramsey was prepubertile, who else in the Ramsey household might you conclude stained JonBenet's clothing with semen?


There is no evidence to support this statement. You only have Patsy's word and that is suspect, since the police showed her to be entirely inconsistent on this subject!

Wouldn't it be hard to "limit" one's semen to such a small area and wipe away all other evidence? Wouldn't forensics have found traces of semen elsewhere?

Although there was a spot of blood on the underwear, wouldn't the autopsy have revealed had there been a significant loss of blood from that area of JB's body?

Doesn't it make more sense to think simply that they were afraid that "evidence" of their handling of the body was on those items of clothing in such a way that better to redress her towards the end of the staging?

And the bizarreness of the oversized undies -- couldn't that be like the bizarreness of the "small foreign faction" in the ransom note? An over the top flourish that made sense to Patsy but not to "normal" people who could not believe the bogeyman she created?

 

[UKGuy]

Wouldn't it be hard to "limit" one's semen to such a small area and wipe away all other evidence? Wouldn't forensics have found traces of semen elsewhere?

Although there was a spot of blood on the underwear, wouldn't the autopsy have revealed had there been a significant loss of blood from that area of JB's body?

Doesn't it make more sense to think simply that they were afraid that "evidence" of their handling of the body was on those items of clothing in such a way that better to redress her towards the end of the staging?

And the bizarreness of the oversized undies -- couldn't that be like the bizarreness of the "small foreign faction" in the ransom note? An over the top flourish that made sense to Patsy but not to "normal" people who could not believe the bogeyman she created?

sandover,

Wouldn't it be hard to "limit" one's semen to such a small area and wipe away all other evidence? Wouldn't forensics have found traces of semen elsewhere?

The pink pajama bottoms and the size-6 underwear may have been used to wipe JonBenet down and remove whatever semen had been deposited. Later this could have been repeated with John's shirt and/or soapy water?

The motivation to remove the size-6 underwear has to be to hide forensic evidence, otherwise why bother with the own goal of the size-12's?

Doesn't it make more sense to think simply that they were afraid that "evidence" of their handling of the body was on those items of clothing in such a way that better to redress her towards the end of the staging?

No details regarding any Ramsey dna found on JonBenet has been released, and since John and Patsy have both stated they touched JonBenet the night before, so removing evidence of prior handling does not achieve anything.

Unless of course the Ramsey dna being removed was that of Burke Ramsey, his dna should not appear either on the longjohns or the size-12's since we all reckon those were clean on JonBenet?

And the bizarreness of the oversized undies -- couldn't that be like the bizarreness of the "small foreign faction" in the ransom note? An over the top flourish that made sense to Patsy but not to "normal" people who could not believe the bogeyman she created?

Well when interviewed she just lied her way through the interview, no mention of a foreign faction, until the police told her no size-12's were found anywhere in the house.

Patsy may have been prone to drama and impulse but she was not stupid, so it was either her desire to promote a death on the Wednesday, with JonBenet wearing the correct underwear or another Ramsey, with a similar motive but without the intelligence to recognise the underwear which would simply have fallen down, and as a staging element would look totally out of place.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

No semen was found anywhere in or on JB.

The small fabric "loops" that were found (on the floor of her room, I believe?) were not hair ties, but actually fabric loops that were part of her potholder weaving set. The red plastic potholder loom can be seen on her nightstand in the photos. Iy wouldn't surprise me to have it described as hairties by the investigators, who were men. Det. Arndt, while a woman, did not have children and I would be surprised if she recognized the small loops as part of a children's craft set.

As far as JB's two ponytails- she often wore a topknot, with the rest of her hair falling down long over her shoulders. She can be seen in this hairstyle at her family's Christmas party, in photos wearing a dark dress with white lace trim.
Patsy said that she would usually pull back JB's hair into a ponytail before bed. I did the same with my own daughter's long hair. In can be easily seen how JB ended up with what many consider an odd hairstyle- one ponytail at the top of the head (the topknot) and another at the nape of her neck (the bedtime ponytail). If you consider this scenario, the hairstyle she was found in is not all that unusual and has a fairly easy explanation.
It isn't hard to imagine that Patsy would have simply left the topknot ponytail in place rather than take it out with a sleepy, cranky child.
Of course, the coroner (as would most men) would not really think about this kind of thing, simply seeing her hairstyle as unusual. And the Rs, just as they did with the broken window and the moved suitcase, would certainly not come forward with the real explanation when IDI could jump all over it as further "proof" of an intruder.