Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[Ardy]

Over the weekend I went back over MSM articles from the April 2009 time period, and found it interesting to read some statements and quotes, many of which were never discussed during the Crown's presentation.

I am wondering if we will hear from some of these people during the defense presentation.

In my opinion, if the defense doesn't present any refuting evidence, or any support for the drug theory.............the best MR can hope for is a mistrial due to a hung jury.

At this point, I don't think he is going to be acquitted and walk away.

JMO............

 

[Flowercb]

Trial summary video by LFP.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/26/19685496.html

 

[Flowercb]

s


Because I believe it was TLM who did the killing..JMO she confessed to the killing so I believe it was TLM and her alone who did the stomping and kicking and also swung the hammer...JMO

http://canindia.com/2012/04/tori-stafford-jury-to-hear-about-evidence-from-raffertys-home/ I could ask you the same question...who do you think did the deed...

If you believe this--do you believe the part where she says MTR raped Tori repeatedly? If not, why not?

 

[robynhood]

..thanks Flowercb ...yes that is the link I looked at last night...I could not find the orginal video of Mr pulling into home depot on dreaded day april 8 2009 as some one mentioned here....that they saw Mr get out of his car ...driver side and walk around his car BEFORE TLM got out to go inside Home depot....????

I was curious because >>>>I never saw MR get out of his car...???>>>I wanted to see a few things ...Is that video clip gone????....I only see TLM as she walks in and makes that purchase and than leaves Home depot ????...ty robynhood

 

[otto]

...well I am being careful in my reply as this is websleuther and do NOT want to offend anyone here....there is MOST definitely a Petition tited The Tori Law !....It was on TV in which Tori's father voiced his Opinions pertaining to his daughter 's horrific MURDER ....15,000 signatures are required and they are almost there !!!!... ONTARIO PArents and Citzen's are as you said "HORRIFIED with TORI's brutal MURDER "....RODNEY"S final words that are on video and he was interviewed on Friday AFTER the crown has now rested their case ...parphrased ...Rodney wishes are to MAKE ONTARIO a SAFER place for all CHILDREN!....once 15.000 signatures are met this PETION shall be re INTRODUCED into our Legislature!....All I will comment is shall we all watch than how it is handled !!!...the end Robynhood ...and yes finally ! more sleep and than ...FINALLY AFTER 3 years of waiting we shall see what MR>. Detstine ...the defence intends to handle all this EVIDENCE and foresic science and video tapes....I MAY VERY WELL be in London court this week!....I find it EXTREMELY HARD to get a clear picture of what is going on.....AS a teacher and a PARENT in ONTARIO ....I want the see OUR CHILDREN SAFE like Tori's dad....sorry end of this reant for the monent ....Oh yes ...I am applauding SWEDE for that long list of evidence ...etc...which the CROWN DID IN THIS CASE ...IMO THE CROWN did an EXCELLEnt job OF PRODUCING ....THANKS AGIN SWEDE FOR WHAT i FEEL WAS A GREAT post HERE ....ROBYNHOOD

I think that after 15,000 signatures are there, they each have to be authenticated. It's an online petition and anyone can create 10 aliases from anywhere in the world and pretend to be Canadians voicing an opinion about the laws in Canada. We recently saw exactly that problem regarding the pipeline through Northern BC. It turned out that "foreign radicals" were attempting to strongly influence Canadian decisions through polls (link). It would only take one fake foreign signature for the entire petition to be tossed ... since one fake signature means that there were no safeguards in the process. Furthermore, 15,000 online people can't speak for 33 million Canadians. Rob Anders is one of the few MPs interested in this law change and that is not enough to change the law.

 

[otto]

I thought that I read somewhere recently that Harper said no to even bringing this to the table for discussion. Did anyone else here this? I thought I saw it on a tweet yesterday or the day before on CP24

Yes, Stephen Harper has said that he will not open the capital punishment debate ... not for 15,000 online signatures, not for any reason.

 

[otto]

...interesting THE REPONSES TO MY POST...in the comment that supposively STEVE HARPER said ....parprase from previous thread...." that Steve Harper does not think Ontario people do NOT want to re open the discussion about CAPITaL punishment....stated on Fridays t.V prodcast...I did not see by the way ....IMO ..I say hmmm moment ...there are almost 12,000 Parents / people signatures ...currently on that petition...hmmm I wonder if that is not a VOICE from fellow ontario People ...we shall see ....IMO as I agree STRONGLY with what Rodney ( Tori's dad said) ....I want my daughter's name TORI ...To be remebered as how this changed ONTARIO and made it safer for other children....I shall try and find his video / interview with Adler ...oh and by the way this petition was NOT started by Rodney ...he found out about it after it was started !!!....IMO this even furthers how I think people feel ...especially Parents and teacher of young children ...similar to myself...again IMO ONLY ...robynhood!

March 16, 2012: "Prime Minister Stephen Harper says opening the debate on capital punishment is a non-starter, despite this week's outcry from Canadians horrified by details of the Tori Stafford case.

"I don't think there is a public consensus on the death penalty," Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Friday. "I don't think the public wants to reopen the debate and I don't intend to reopen the debate."

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/16/pm-wont-open-capital-punishment-debate

 

[robynhood]

I think that after 15,000 signatures are there, they each have to be authenticated. It's an online petition and anyone can create 10 aliases from anywhere in the world and pretend to be Canadians voicing an opinion about the laws in Canada. We recently saw exactly that problem regarding the pipeline through Northern BC. It turned out that "foreign radicals" were attempting to strongly influence Canadian decisions through polls (link). It would only take one fake foreign signature for the entire petition to be tossed ... since one fake signature means that there were no safeguards in the process. Furthermore, 15,000 online people can't speak for 33 million Canadians. Rob Anders is one of the few MPs interested in this law change and that is not enough to change the law.

...this petition DOES not allow the same person to sign twice...it is made that way ...But anyways TIME always tells all ...IMO ...something shall be done it is MY HOPE ...as young offenders are obviously not handled to wonderfully in Ontario...and needs IMPOVEMNTS ...again IMO ...and we shall see again once the petition is complete >>>a work in progress presently AGAIN >>>>... My opiion for what ever it is worth ...as all opinions here deserve consideration in posting here ...thanks robynhood

 

[Macright]

Over the weekend I went back over MSM articles from the April 2009 time period, and found it interesting to read some statements and quotes, many of which were never discussed during the Crown's presentation.

I am wondering if we will hear from some of these people during the defense presentation.

In my opinion, if the defense doesn't present any refuting evidence, or any support for the drug theory.............the best MR can hope for is a mistrial due to a hung jury.

At this point, I don't think he is going to be acquitted and walk away.

JMO............

I can't believe that there will be a hung jury..my reason is because he was at the scene and helped with the cover up..that is the one thing that I believe happened for reasons only MR can answer and of course because he did not say anything to LE about this but who knows..maybe he did tell them this and we have not heard anything to date..if he was there and helped then I personally think he should serve some sentence...JMO I think they could get him on a lesser charge...

 

[Macright]

If you believe this--do you believe the part where she says MTR raped Tori repeatedly? If not, why not?

simple answer NO....have given my reasons previously and if you want to scroll back you will find them...I really don't feel the need to repeat things again...JMO
respectfully.....

 

[Tahorn]

If you believe this--do you believe the part where she says MTR raped Tori repeatedly? If not, why not?

TLM wrote before VS death

In another, she talked about kidnapping someone on the side of the road, mutilating them so she could “smash their skull apart and put it back together like a puzzle.”

TLM wrote after VS death

She raged about being incarcerated with younger people and at one point wrote: “I’m ... getting blood-thirsty again, it’s like I’m ... relapsin’ a bit.”

No doubt that she not only killed VS but it was planned for over a year ...

As far as the rape, well since there was sperm cells with out semen was also found on the back seat just above where VS blood was found, I believe it is possible VS was mixed at different times.


http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html

Picture 63

 

[crazyladi]

It is the part where she moves her body to describe MR sitting in the back seat
41:43 minutes in

Every time I have watched that video it seems as though she is making everything up as she goes along. However I find it odd but plausible that TS and MTR had no clothes from the waist down.

There are certain details that are odd in her statements. I think what is odd to me is that I think she might be telling the truth in some parts but she is downplaying her role it in it all.

It really is hard to tell. To me what always has stuck in my head was the bum comment, the MTR not wearing pants after the fact and washing his hands with the water bottles, " I heard the sound of the bags" or something along those lines etc. Little details that I would find weird if she made them up.

Again I am not good in telling if someone is lying for the most part.

What I truly got out of her statements were lack of responsibility for her role during the whole time Tori was with her. Saying things like, Tori said not to leave her alone with him, she wishes she was brave like her, holding her hand so MTR couldnt see etc etc. I dont buy those statements at all. I think she is trying to make her self feel better for what she did.

 

[crazyladi]

TLM wrote before VS death

In another, she talked about kidnapping someone on the side of the road, mutilating them so she could “smash their skull apart and put it back together like a puzzle.”

TLM wrote after VS death

She raged about being incarcerated with younger people and at one point wrote: “I’m ... getting blood-thirsty again, it’s like I’m ... relapsin’ a bit.”

No doubt that she not only killed VS but it was planned for over a year ...

As far as the rape, well since there was sperm cells with out semen was also found on the back seat just above where VS blood was found, I believe it is possible VS was mixed at different times.


http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html

Picture 63

See and the one thing I got out of what she said was it wasnt supposed to be a little girl, it wasn't planned. I think she followed through with the plan that was set forth to her and it excited her that someone had the same demented desires. However I really dont think that she was meant or knew she was going to die that day. Again that is JMO.

I think they both knew that they were busted and they had to do something.

I see TLM killing alot more people but I truly believe that TS wasnt suppose to die that day. JMO

 

[Ardy]

I can't believe that there will be a hung jury..my reason is because he was at the scene and helped with the cover up..that is the one thing that I believe happened for reasons only MR can answer and of course because he did not say anything to LE about this but who knows..maybe he did tell them this and we have not heard anything to date..if he was there and helped then I personally think he should serve some sentence...JMO I think they could get him on a lesser charge...

Good post...........if a lesser charge is a possibility, that may be the route that the jury takes.

With 12 people on the panel, I would think there are probably going to be some who just can't reach the guilty verdict without some reasonable doubt. They may believe MR.......probably did it, or likely did it, or most likely did it...........but all those fall short of the threshold.

If they have nagging questions about his guilt.......they must acquit.

Or as you say.............maybe find guilt for a lesser offense?

JMO..........

 

[otto]

...this petition DOES not allow the same person to sign twice...it is made that way ...But anyways TIME always tells all ...IMO ...something shall be done it is MY HOPE ...as young offenders are obviously not handled to wonderfully in Ontario...and needs IMPOVEMNTS ...again IMO ...and we shall see again once the petition is complete >>>a work in progress presently AGAIN >>>>... My opiion for what ever it is worth ...as all opinions here deserve consideration in posting here ...thanks robynhood

Regarding the authenticity of signatures on the Tori's Law petition, it is possible for anyone to create false information on the internet. Any IP address, which may be recorded in order to prevent someone from signing twice, can be roundabout managed with ease by going through a proxy server or by signing from several different locations (eg: work, home, library). There is nothing to prevent people from anywhere in the world from pretending to be Canadian and signing the petition. If it were so easy to regulate online signatures, national voting would have an online component ... but it doesn't because there are no safeguards that can be put in place to ensure authenticity of the results. The Prime Minister has voiced his opinion of online polls in relation to the Northern Pipeline, and he is not going to modify that opinion for this proposed change to Canadian law.

 

[Yody04]

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html

I watched TLM statement again, this time not as shocking but still very disturbing ... But something still bothers me...

Between TLM description of the second assault and the pic of the back seat seemed a bit unnatural. Any ideas? Can't put my figure on it but something seems odd ...

TLM police statement about 41 minutes in

Good question Tahorn. To me there are endless points that just don't fit. I have another question: This is to find under evidence picture 69: Chemical indications of blood were detected........., however no blood-like staining was observed. Can somebody please explain this to me? What exactly does that mean?



I don't like that they hardly found any semen and if then it was on the front seat right? Correct me if I am wrong. Well I guess he had sex a million times in his car with all these women.

I really think for the sexual assault is not enough evidence there. unfortunately.



With everything TLM said isn't it kind of strange that the forensic didn't find more? With all these super special testing they have nowadays? I just don't know what to think.

 

[Tahorn]

See and the one thing I got out of what she said was it wasnt supposed to be a little girl, it wasn't planned. I think she followed through with the plan that was set forth to her and it excited her that someone had the same demented desires. However I really dont think that she was meant or knew she was going to die that day. Again that is JMO.

I think they both knew that they were busted and they had to do something.

I see TLM killing alot more people but I truly believe that TS wasnt suppose to die that day. JMO

I think we agree...
<modsnip> ... She may not have thought VS was going to die but sub-Consciencely I believe she did... What could TLM believe was going to happen?

 

[Wondergirl]

Edward Greenspan has defended high-profile clients such as Conrad Black and Karlheinz Schreiber. (M. Spencer Green/Associated Press)

An equally important consideration is the personality of the accused, Greenspan says, because how they act in the witness box will greatly influence how the jury perceives their version of events.

"Unfortunately, in a courtroom, a very honest person who is nervous and is upset and doesn't really know how to deal with questioning appears guilty," Greenspan says.

Likewise, he added, a person who is lying may seem completely believable if they are calm and collected.

Although the same can be said of any witness, "the accused is in the most difficult position because the jury is looking at them while the trial is going on and looking very closely," Greenspan says, noting nervousness may cause someone to say too much or too little, which can hurt their credibility

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/27/accused-testifying-own-defence.html

 

[otto]

Good post...........if a lesser charge is a possibility, that may be the route that the jury takes.

With 12 people on the panel, I would think there are probably going to be some who just can't reach the guilty verdict without some reasonable doubt. They may believe MR.......probably did it, or likely did it, or most likely did it...........but all those fall short of the threshold.

If they have nagging questions about his guilt.......they must acquit.

Or as you say.............maybe find guilt for a lesser offense?

JMO..........

In view of the totality of the crimes and the horrific nature of them, could any jury member really believe that the 18 year old woman was calling all the shots and the 28 year old man was just tagging along without any control over anything ... even though he was driving the car, he had prior history with the location of the body, he withdrew money moments before the purchase of the murder weapon, he had a knife throughout the crime and the blade of the knife is now missing, the young girl was found half undressed and murdered, he did not report the crime, he attempted to get away with it through lies and manipulation, and so on?

What "nagging question" could the jury have regarding his complicity in the crimes.

I would love to see MR testify. He thinks he's a smart guy, too smart to need a formal education. In fact, he's so stupid he doesn't realize how stupid he is ... so I would really like to see him get on the stand and try to wiggle out of the questions the prosecution has for him. He will self-incriminate in no time. Unfortunately for us, I'm pretty sure his lawyer will not let that happen.

 

[Macright]

Yes, Stephen Harper has said that he will not open the capital punishment debate ... not for 15,000 online signatures, not for any reason.

and rightly so... JMO.. we as a country have abolished Capital punishment and I would hate to see my country regress...