weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[swedie]

(RSBM)

This is an oft-repeated refrain. Do you have a link to show that MTR didn't tell LE what he did with his car seat? The only thing I've ever seen is that LE couldn't find it. There is a big difference there. He may very well have told LE right after his arrest what he did with that seat.








JMO

Inquiring minds want to know. MOO is that "IF", and that is a huge IF he did tell LE where his back seat went to, it was more than likely a lie. Why would he bother to agree or give anything up to LE, as it would just help the Crown's case, kwim? There would be his and Tori's DNA all over that back seat; like maggots to a gut wagon. You shirley don't think MR would implicate himself that way do you? Give up the most damaging piece of evidence when he couldn't even go to LE in the six weeks he had before being arrested? Makes no sense at all. Did I miss something? :waitasec: :moo:

 

[flipflop]

Originally Posted by dilbert
It's irrelevant what age TLM was when she nuked the puppy, she was old enough to lie about it after and blame the injuries on a neighbourhood dog, that to me proves she knew it was wrong to put the dog in the microwave in the first place.

MOO

I am really surprised that we have not heard of TLM having Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, she does not have the facial features to make it severe, but she sure does follow the behaviour patterns. JMO

 

[Macright]

Do you think MTR knew it was wrong for the child he was with to be murdered and buried under rocks half naked, while 13,000 GOOD people searched for her?

I am curious as to how he gets an overlook for that psychotic behaviour?

JMO

I don't think he is being overlooked for that, at least not by anyone that posts on this site...IMO..I have not read one post on here to date that condones his behaviour about that....:moo:

 

[antiquegirl]

Inquiring minds want to know. MOO is that "IF", and that is a huge IF he did tell LE where his back seat went to, it was more than likely a lie. Why would he bother to agree or give anything up to LE, as it would just help the Crown's case, kwim? There would be his and Tori's DNA all over that back seat; like maggots to a gut wagon. You shirley don't think MR would implicate himself that way do you? Give up the most damaging piece of evidence when he couldn't even go to LE in the six weeks he had before being arrested? Makes no sense at all. Did I miss something? :waitasec: :moo:

Funny, it makes perfect sense to me. If he did remove the seat at the end of March, as the neighbour witnessed and told LE, and it was never put back again, and then put out for trash pick-up in early April, then it wasn't in the car on April 8th. Therefore, there would be no DNA evidence on it and no reason for him to withhold the information or to lie about it. HTH

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Funny, it makes perfect sense to me. If he did remove the seat at the end of March, as the neighbour witnessed and told LE, and it was never put back again, and then put out for trash pick-up in early April, then it wasn't in the car on April 8th. Therefore, there would be no DNA evidence on it and no reason for him to withhold the information or to lie about it. HTH

JMO

Actually I thought the pick-up was end of April?

 

[dilbert]

I don't think he is being overlooked for that, at least not by anyone that posts on this site...IMO..I have not read one post on here to date that condones his behaviour about that....:moo:

Thank you! I do not condone that behaviour and have stated that in the past. I can certainly understand why he may have helped to hide the body and not tell anyone about if after. I would never do such a thing myself, but can see why someone like MR would.

MOO

 

[Macright]

Actually I thought the pick-up was end of April?

I believe it was stated that it was mid april....if you want to go back a few pages...(well many) I am sure you will have your answer...in fact tomorrow in an area close to Woodstock they are having the same spring cleanup...maybe it also extends to the Woodstock area...I know this because my son informed me today..I am sure that the city of Woodstock would post when pickup is taking place....:moo:

 

[flipflop]

Actually I thought the pick-up was end of April?

On April 15, however, the self-described “nosy neighbour” spotted the seat on the curb outside the Rafferty household and noticed that the upholstery had been cut.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...g-in-tori-stafford-case/article2400085/print/

Not sure when the pick up was, but April 15th it was still there.

 

[dar107]

My responses to the bolded parts are in red. here is a link to the LFP article that talks a bit about the relationship.
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/15/19505826.html

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and interpretation of events. As am I.

I believe that the neighbour saw him put it in the shed at the end of March (as per his signed statement to LE) and then several others saw it at the curb a week or two later. I do not believe that he removed it, put it back in, and took it out again - all within two weeks. :moo: I believe it's possible that he told this to LE when asked. LE searched the dumps and couldn't find it. They then hoped that someone either picked it off the curb or took it from the dump. They then hoped that whoever had it might let them know. LE did give up asking about it and I have to wonder if that was after they got the neighbour's statement.

It's too bad that we can't access the old threads. We had a man on here back then whose wife had the same car. This nice guy actually went to his garage, removed the bench from that vehicle, and then reported back to us on how difficult it was. They are also not easy to lift and carry by a single person.

Again, JMO!

Thank-you AG, you make it quite clear where you stand on the car seat, and the neighbours testimony raises doubt IMO as to whether the seat was actually there when Tori was taken. In the pictures with the blanket over the area, it is hard to see that it is missing. So it could of not been there and TLM did not even realize it. And for all we know MR could have told LE exactly what he did with the seat, put it out in the trash on his curb because it was spring cleanup week, with his neighbours confirming it. He would have no reason to lie about this if the seat had not been out back in.Possible :moo:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Funny, it makes perfect sense to me. If he did remove the seat at the end of March, as the neighbour witnessed and told LE, and it was never put back again, and then put out for trash pick-up in early April, then it wasn't in the car on April 8th. Therefore, there would be no DNA evidence on it and no reason for him to withhold the information or to lie about it. HTH

JMO

I believe it was stated that it was mid april....if you want to go back a few pages...(well many) I am sure you will have your answer...in fact tomorrow in an area close to Woodstock they are having the same spring cleanup...maybe it also extends to the Woodstock area...I know this because my son informed me today..I am sure that the city of Woodstock would post when pickup is taking place....:moo:

Well whichever it was, mid or end of april, I was responding to AG who said it was early april.

 

[Macright]

To me the fact the Tori was naked apart from her shirt coupled with the fact that her blood was found with sperm is evidence of sexual assault. I cannot think of any good reason as to why she would be only in her shirt and also how her blood had traces of sperm. I think the chance the her blood landed on the exact spot where sperm was is very very minimal.

My opinion only of course, but to me that IS evidence.

I can if it was a setup by either TLM or MR or both to make it LOOK like a rape and murder...would not put anything past TLM from what I have read about her to date...MR I can't judge at this time because I have not read a lot about him or his behaviour in the past...:moo:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I can if it was a setup by either TLM or MR or both to make it LOOK like a rape and murder...would not put anything past TLM from what I have read about her to date...MR I can't judge at this time because I have not read a lot about him or his behaviour in the past...:moo:

I think we know enough about his behaviour in the past (namely helping to hide a little girl's body under a pile of rocks, etc) to be able to judge if he is capable of doing something like that.

 

[SFB73]

Regarding the backseat of the car, In Woodstock they have spring cleanup...large items can be put to the curb. Otherwise regular garbage collection won't take large household items. While I have not lived in the city for a decade, I'm not familiar with spring cleanup schedules. I doubt spring cleanup would be scheduled when there still is potential for heavy snow ie) feb, march.... I'd be more inclined to think April or May as it is where i am located Outside the city. I'm sure you can find this years schedule on the city of Woodstocks website it's probably similar to years past. Not to mention, if there was a collection before VS was kidnapped and then after the arrests it was highly publicized that they were looking for a car seat, would it not perhaps jog the memory of the person who picked up the seat albeit a garbage collection employee or a private person who obtained the seat from curbside outside a home that became a central point of the investigaion, assuming it was put to curb there. MR resided on a street one would need to have a purpose to be on and is not a heavilly travelled street, a private person scoring a new used seat from a Honda civic would remember being on that street and finding the seat. If this really happened, it would be in MR's best interest for the seat to have been located in order to prove his story about the seat not being in the car. Since it was never recovered, it only casts suspicion to the case.

Tomorrow I think I'll take my backseat out and put it at the curb, after all I bet there are many many cars driving around with missing backseats, most of those likely discarded at the curb... I've never seen any.... Again, the seat story doesn't pass the sniff test! It's just another piece of circumstantial evidence putting another X against the defendant.

 

[brighidin]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and interpretation of events. As am I.

I believe that the neighbour saw him put it in the shed at the end of March (as per his signed statement to LE) and then several others saw it at the curb a week or two later. I do not believe that he removed it, put it back in, and took it out again - all within two weeks.
Again, JMO!

I don't know if he removed it and put it back in again either. But this quote from the article I posted earlier is interesting:
"If the back seat was taken out prior to Tori being taken it certainly shows some pre-planning."
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090525/stafford_search_090525/20090525?hub=Toronto

And, I think you can access the old threads. I was just reading one the other day.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I can if it was a setup by either TLM or MR or both to make it LOOK like a rape and murder...would not put anything past TLM from what I have read about her to date...MR I can't judge at this time because I have not read a lot about him or his behaviour in the past...:moo:

Based upon what we know of TLM, she seems like the type that takes physically harms people. If she was wanting to avenge anything at that point I think it is more likely she would have stabbed MTR than set him up for sexually assaulting Tory. It just seems like she is the type that likes to watch the suffering she is causing as a result of her very violent actions.

I'm not sure if I can come up with a reason why MTR would want to make it look like Tory was sexually assaulted either.

:moo:

 

[Ardy]

it could very well be that he did tell them....it was put out for collection for all the world to see so he would have no reason not to tell LE when they asked him...I think LE just didn't know where the trash was taken to so that is why they asked the public for help...who knows..maybe the trash pickers that come around each garbage day picking through garbage may have taken the seat ...:moo: remember we do NOT know everything that has transpired between MR & LE and perhaps we may never know every little detail...so I would say...lets wait and see.....:moo::moo::moo:

Good point.....One would think he would have gotten rid of it somewhere else, other than the front of his house.

He had no idea when LE would come calling............

JMO.............

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Good point.....One would think he would have gotten rid of it somewhere else, other than the front of his house.

He had no idea when LE would come calling............

JMO.............

Or he was just arrogant... He did speak to multiple people about a crime he was involved in. Not too bright :moo:

 

[Ardy]

To me the fact the Tori was naked apart from her shirt coupled with the fact that her blood was found with sperm is evidence of sexual assault. I cannot think of any good reason as to why she would be only in her shirt and also how her blood had traces of sperm. I think the chance the her blood landed on the exact spot where sperm was is very very minimal.

My opinion only of course, but to me that IS evidence.

I'm still trying to figure out how TLM and MR's DNA and blood were found on the back of the front seats and on the side of the headrest........if I understood that testimony correctly.

JMO..........

 

[Maple1]

I doubt very much he will get off the hook, but the jury does have the option of a finding of Murder One, Murder Two or Manslaughter. We have been through this on the forum many, many times. Each conviction carries a different sentence of years served and eligibility for parole.

Just wondering if they can consider a lower sentence or not in Canada.
In the infamous Casey Anthony trial they were not able to consider less than murder 1.
It seems like the kidnapping charge should stand in this trial, IMHO.

My honest opinion is they were each living out a fantasy. His to rape a young girl. TLM's to murder someone. They both wanted no surviving witness.
I am relieved at the amount of surveillance footage that was found and been offered as evidence. The DNA evidence proves she was in that car with those two adults.
In my opinion the rape charge should also stand. :moo:

 

[antiquegirl]

On April 15, however, the self-described “nosy neighbour” spotted the seat on the curb outside the Rafferty household and noticed that the upholstery had been cut.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...g-in-tori-stafford-case/article2400085/print/

Not sure when the pick up was, but April 15th it was still there.

Yes, mid-April is when the neighbour saw it at the curb. Sorry, the memory ain't what it used to be.

From the Tweets below, one can guess that the seat was placed there any time between April 10 and April 15th. We're not told when the actual pick-up occurred, but obviously on or after the 15th.

The Tweets also indicate that the seat had a straight cut, not gouges out of it.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
Carnegie shows Griswold a witness synopsis. Has details he gave to police. He told police the garbage was at Rafferty's home April 15/09

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
The garbage was out for 4 or 5 days before it was picked up.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court /
Derstine asks if chunks were cut out of the seat. Griswold says no. Just one cut. No more questions.

Avery Moore‏@AveryFreeFMNews
Griswold agrees that he did tell police he saw #Rafferty put the back car seat in the shed. Clarifies, the tear he saw was a straight rip.

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP
Pushie described it as the seat portion of a back seat He said the clean up happened about a week after Easter in 2009