weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[Alethea Dice]

Regarding the backseat of the car, In Woodstock they have spring cleanup...large items can be put to the curb. Otherwise regular garbage collection won't take large household items. While I have not lived in the city for a decade, I'm not familiar with spring cleanup schedules. I doubt spring cleanup would be scheduled when there still is potential for heavy snow ie) feb, march.... I'd be more inclined to think April or May as it is where i am located Outside the city. I'm sure you can find this years schedule on the city of Woodstocks website it's probably similar to years past. Not to mention, if there was a collection before VS was kidnapped and then after the arrests it was highly publicized that they were looking for a car seat, would it not perhaps jog the memory of the person who picked up the seat albeit a garbage collection employee or a private person who obtained the seat from curbside outside a home that became a central point of the investigaion, assuming it was put to curb there. MR resided on a street one would need to have a purpose to be on and is not a heavilly travelled street, a private person scoring a new used seat from a Honda civic would remember being on that street and finding the seat. If this really happened, it would be in MR's best interest for the seat to have been located in order to prove his story about the seat not being in the car. Since it was never recovered, it only casts suspicion to the case.

Tomorrow I think I'll take my backseat out and put it at the curb, after all I bet there are many many cars driving around with missing backseats, most of those likely discarded at the curb... I've never seen any.... Again, the seat story doesn't pass the sniff test! It's just another piece of circumstantial evidence putting another X against the defendant.

Regardless, there were four witnesses who testified to the seat being there on the curb in front of his house. So someone obviously told LE, whether it was MR himself or the neighbours. Whether LE couldn't find it at the place it should have been delivered to by the time they went looking, or hoped someone else had picked it up, or just didn't believe it, we'll probably never know. Or are you saying the witnesses are all liars too?

JMO

 

[SFB73]

I'm still trying to figure out how TLM and MR's DNA and blood were found on the back of the front seats and on the side of the headrest........if I understood that testimony correctly.

JMO..........

Could be a few explanations....

Do the seats fold down? Perhaps used as a makeshift platform for some sexual activity....

Would have it been possible one of them to have cut themselves on the utility knife during the cleanup or cutting of the seat fabric?

If there was a struggle in the backseat, could have TS inflicted devensive wounds on one or both???

Could have been cut while removing a seat?

I know when I clean my cars, I get them all finished but how many times have I overlooked wiping down the leather on the backs of the seat? Usually everytime.

Was MR car seats leather or cloth? Assuming cloth would be harder to clean or notice blood spots especially if it's a dark fabric.

 

[tmhco]

Yes, mid-April is when the neighbour saw it at the curb. Sorry, the memory ain't what it used to be.

From the Tweets below, one can guess that the seat was placed there any time between April 10 and April 15th. We're not told when the actual pick-up occurred, but obviously on or after the 15th.

The Tweets also indicate that the seat had a straight cut, not gouges out of it.

It makes you wonder how on earth there was piece of the seat in the car, with traces of blood, no less? JMO

 

[Ardy]

Or he was just arrogant... He did speak to multiple people about a crime he was involved in. Not too bright :moo:

Arrogant or something else.............

I am wondering if we simply can't accept the fact that a whole lot of people of his age group, just don't possess a much moral fiber these days.

If they did........we wouldn't have the big riot in Vancouver last year, and 1000 young people (including a whole lot of "college" kids) rioting in London a little while ago. They pelted and threatened LE, fire and ambulance personal, damaged news vans and police cars, set fires, damaged property............but their parents would still probably characterize them as "good kids".

What if............among his other lacking qualities.........the defense theory is true and MR did come back to find that awful deed had been done by TML.

Is it possible that after cleaning up the evidence, not only did TLM threaten that he was involved as deeply as her, but that MR justified it to himself that he "really wasn't guilty" of anything because he didn't know what was going on and hadn't killed VS.

I guess I am just never surprised at the lengths people will go to protect their own butt............

Or those of their kids.........given how few parents have turned their kids into LE for participating in the riot in London.

JMO................

 

[SFB73]

Regardless, there were four witnesses who testified to the seat being there on the curb in front of his house. So someone obviously told LE, whether it was MR himself or the neighbours. Whether LE couldn't find it at the place it should have been delivered to by the time they went looking, or hoped someone else had picked it up, or just didn't believe it, we'll probably never know. Or are you saying the witnesses are all liars too?

JMO

If there was a seat at the curb... Was it the actual seat from his car though? Would you know a Honda civic seat from a ford escort seat if you happened to see it sitting there? Without examining it closely.. If the seat was indeed put to curb after the abduction and 4 people saw it that's great... Mark two X's against him... My point was could there have been a decoy seat placed out to the curb for all to see well in advance of the abduction, but that would have required a well thought out plan and I wouldn't want to give that much credit.

From reading Antiquegirls post above, wow... Abduct a child, put seat from car out to spring cleanup after the fact....don't put a seat back in the car, continue to drive around town with no seat and get caught without seat... Wow....wow...

 

[Alethea Dice]

Just wondering if they can consider a lower sentence or not in Canada.
In the infamous Casey Anthony trial they were not able to consider less than murder 1.
It seems like the kidnapping charge should stand in this trial, IMHO.

My honest opinion is they were each living out a fantasy. His to rape a young girl. TLM's to murder someone. They both wanted no surviving witness.
I am relieved at the amount of surveillance footage that was found and been offered as evidence. The DNA evidence proves she was in that car with those two adults.
In my opinion the rape charge should also stand. :moo:

It's my understanding that the jury could have found CA guilty of less than murder 1.

In Perry's instructions, he told the jury today that Casey Anthony is charged with murder in the first-degree, second-degree murder, manslaughter, third-degree felony murder, aggravated manslaughter of a child, aggravated child abuse and four counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20076718-504083.html

 

[Macright]

Could be a few explanations....

Do the seats fold down? Perhaps used as a makeshift platform for some sexual activity....

Would have it been possible one of them to have cut themselves on the utility knife during the cleanup or cutting of the seat fabric?

If there was a struggle in the backseat, could have TS inflicted devensive wounds on one or both???

Could have been cut while removing a seat?

I know when I clean my cars, I get them all finished but how many times have I overlooked wiping down the leather on the backs of the seat? Usually everytime.

Was MR car seats leather or cloth? Assuming cloth would be harder to clean or notice blood spots especially if it's a dark fabric.

and it also could have been left there by MR & TLM long before TS was ever in that car...maybe they had rough sex on that first encounter...who knows...it just means that it didn't have to happen on that fatal day...:moo::moo:

 

[Ardy]

Could be a few explanations....

Do the seats fold down? Perhaps used as a makeshift platform for some sexual activity....

Would have it been possible one of them to have cut themselves on the utility knife during the cleanup or cutting of the seat fabric?

If there was a struggle in the backseat, could have TS inflicted devensive wounds on one or both???

Could have been cut while removing a seat?

I know when I clean my cars, I get them all finished but how many times have I overlooked wiping down the leather on the backs of the seat? Usually everytime.

Was MR car seats leather or cloth? Assuming cloth would be harder to clean or notice blood spots especially if it's a dark fabric.

That's interesting..........I don't think it has been brought up before.

JMO

 

[swedie]

TLM lied the big one at her sentencing hearing .... and then she mouthed all sorts of drivel to the family about how sorry she was and how she was touched by Tori durin the short time they spent together. Her credibility is shot with me! It doesn't matter how old she was when she nuked the dog - she did it, and statistically speaking it was a big red flag for things to come. Undeniably she is evil and has been lying very well since she was a kid. No excuses for her behaviour with the dog, and no excuses for what she did to an innocent child.

|" Acts of cruelty to animals are not mere indications of a minor personality flaw in the abuser; they are symptomatic of a deep mental disturbance. Research in psychology and criminology shows that people who commit acts of cruelty to animals don’t stop there—many of them move on to their fellow humans. “Murderers ... very often start out by killing and torturing animals as kids,” says Robert K. Ressler, who developed profiles of serial killers for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).(1)"

I am assuming the bolded part above is just your opinion. I for one do not agree. IMO age does matter. We know this is not the case, but if someone told a four year old child it was a good idea to put a dog in a nuker after a bath because it would dry them so they didn't get sick, then the child has no reason to doubt that person and may do it. How do we know MR didn't torture or kill animals as a child and older?? We don't. He very well could have done a lot worse then nuke a dog. :moo:

My seconded bolded part from you post, you are absolutely right, but hand in hand with that; MR had absolutely no right either for sexually assaulting Tori and causing her to suffer before he threw her out of his car. I wouldn't put it past him to have smashed Tori in the face with his fist a few times because of her lack of cooperation (as per TM claimed she was a fighter) He probably got pizzed off because he could experience what he was hoping to experience by raping a little girl. He probably couldn't ejaculate. Reason being there was not more sperm found in his car (then again who knows what that back seat held for evidence; more than likely Tori's blood). Then MR proceeded to bag her broken body and then hide it under a rock pile in the middle of nowhere. IMHO he's more evil then TLM will ever be. The crime was done to suit his sick perverted mind. I'm not naive here, I'm aware of all the evidence and it's blindingly apparent MR was the instigator period. Reports right after the arrests stated for nefarious and sexual purposes if you recall. The Crown would not have brought that charge against MR if they felt it didn't happen. They have got MR on abduction and murder regardless. HTH and :moo:

 

[Alethea Dice]

If there was a seat at the curb... Was it the actual seat from his car though? Would you know a Honda civic seat from a ford escort seat if you happened to see it sitting there? Without examining it closely.. If the seat was indeed put to curb after the abduction and 4 people saw it that's great... Mark two X's against him... My point was could there have been a decoy seat placed out to the curb for all to see well in advance of the abduction, but that would have required a well thought out plan and I wouldn't want to give that much credit.

Well apparently it fit the description that the witnesses gave, since the Crown put them on the stand to testify. Did someone in their house have another vehicle with a missing seat that it may have belonged to? Not that I've heard. If someone planted a different back seat in front of his house, then I would be suspicious. It's highly unlikely that a neighbour would also be getting rid of a seat and just decide to put it in front of his house instead of their own.

JMO

 

[Ardy]

and it also could have been left there by MR & TLM long before TS was ever in that car...maybe they had rough sex on that first encounter...who knows...it just means that it didn't have to happen on that fatal day...:moo::moo:

It could have happened a few ways and I think MR's sperm could easily have been deposited on another occasion on the molding on that same area and side of the car. If in fact the sperm was his....which the expert couldn't say.

It doesn't explain how VS blood got there though, although VS did have a lot of facial damage........so I am still not convinced TLM didn't start the assault in the back seat area.

JMO.........

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Well apparently it fit the description that the witnesses gave, since the Crown put them on the stand to testify. Did someone in their house have another vehicle with a missing seat that it may have belonged to? Not that I've heard. If someone planted a different back seat in front of his house, then I would be suspicious. It's highly unlikely that a neighbour would also be getting rid of a seat and just decide to put it in front of his house instead of their own.

JMO

But the trash pick up occurred after the abduction, so the seat could have been in the car during the crime and then removed again afterwords.

 

[SFB73]

Well apparently it fit the description that the witnesses gave, since the Crown put them on the stand to testify. Did someone in their house have another vehicle with a missing seat that it may have belonged to? Not that I've heard. If someone planted a different back seat in front of his house, then I would be suspicious. It's highly unlikely that a neighbour would also be getting rid of a seat and just decide to put it in front of his house instead of their own.

JMO

<modsnip>

What I am trying to say...

The explanation of removing the backseat was probably concaucted in order to cover the fact there was DNA evidence left on the seat, knowing that if the seat was found in the car it would be conclusive proof a sex assault occurred. So in order to get rid of the seat what better time than spring cleanup... Probably not the most logical place to put a seat that was likely in a car where a child was killed and the potential exists you may become the prime suspect in the case.

The decoy seat scenario was a scenario of what someone who had planned well may have done... Place it out well before spring cleanup, people see it... He is caught explains the reason for the seat being removed is because xyz neighbors see it well in advance of the abduction....story checks out as to why there was no seat.

Real seat used then would be destroyed in such a manner to insure no evidence or seat would be found. But again, thats giving more credit... None of this matters anyhow... The seat was only relevant in hopes of finding DNA... Oh and as I said before... There is no suspicion at all that the car was missing the backseat... None... None at all... Yeah right!

 

[swedie]

I think there are a couple of issues with a drug debt theory in this case, first if the alleged drug debt was $400 it's a paltry sum, would going to jail for abduction of a child really be worth $400 ? Perhaps in the world of low level street dealers... But even then I'd have a hard time thinking that it would unless their minds were so warped and so psychotic they could rationalize it. I think a warped mind in this case is a given.... So maybe it is a great defense curve ball to take the limelight of their client, but it won't float!

Secondly, if a child was taken as a form of ransom, there usually would be an outreach by the abductors for their ransom. Given a 400.00 alleged debt, I'm quite certain anyone, even those people without the financial means would do whatever it took to scrape up the 400.00 to pay a ransom debt for the safe return of their loved one. I, as with most of us here with the means to do so would gladly offer up 400 bucks to any family in a situation like this. This wasn't a masterfully thought out Multimillion dollar ransom case... It was only raised by the defense to try to make the jury think there may be more to the case than meets the eye...

Finally the biggest hole in the drug debt theory would be the fact that VS unfortunately was murdered within a few hours of her abduction. More than likely murdered even before a full scale police involved search had been initiated, the rapid series of events from 3:30pm onward doesn't suggest a ransom and why drive so far away from people your trying to collect the so called debt.

So in the end if it was 4 dollar debt a 400 dollar debt or a 4 million dollar debt, it really doesn't matter as the only thing that matters is the fact that MR put a child in his car without permission of said childs parents (from that point on all bets are off and in my opinion is guilty right there) drove an hour away to a secluded area, where VS body was found several weeks later buried under a rock pile. What really happened from the time the door on the beat up Honda civic slammed shut in a secluded nursing home parking lot until VS was placed in a makeshift stone pile grave may never be fully known as its TLM story vs the story of the defence. While forensics couldn't link MR to a sex assault TLM testimony and common sense in my mind and I'm sure in the minds of the jurors does.

What is known for fact is that the people who were involved with that poor child during her final hours of life came back to town and joined in the search and went about their lives as nothing was different, clearly the actions of people trying to cover up their crimes.

If MR was so innocent and not involved he had many opportunities for an out, these opportunities never were taken. Even If he did stumble upon the murder scene and if he had no part in that or a sex assault, he could have dialed 911 right away, a good defense lawyer probably could have turned his role in the abduction around, Ohhh but wait perhaps had he done that then an investigation would have turned up physical evidence. Instead he opted to help clean up, conceal a body and drive back to town and cary on life as normal. All clearly the steps any innocent rational person would have done. Right?

:tyou::goodpost: I sure hope the Crown points this bolded part out when the time comes. Excellent point matie! Derstine sure has his job cut out for him IMO. Wonder if he will try and talk MR into a plea bargain soon now that the Crown has so much damaging evidence against him? :moo:

I can see Derstine saying "come on Mike they gotcha, there is no way out". Mike crying "but please Dirk, just one more day away from my new home and fellow friends PB, RW and the Bandidos dudes". :floorlaugh:

 

[Maple1]

It's my understanding that the jury could have found CA guilty of less than murder 1.



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20076718-504083.html

Thanks for that. I forgot they could of at least given her manslaughter.

 

[antiquegirl]

Or he was just arrogant... He did speak to multiple people about a crime he was involved in. Not too bright :moo:

(RBBM)

Actually, I think it would have been stupid to not talk about Tori, seeing as how everyone else was. And this is what Derstine was trying to establish with his witness on Friday.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply

Derstine asks if everybody in Woodstock was talking about Tori. She says most were.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply

"You almost would have stood out if you weren't talking about it?" Derstine asks. She agrees.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply

Derstine begins cross. He asks Chambers about reaction in Woodstock to Tori's disappearance. Chamber said it was major

Avery Moore@AveryFreeFMNewsReply

#Rafferty's lawyer asks Amanda Chambers whether someone would have stood out in Woodstock if they weren't talking about Tori. She says yes.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I believe TLM told the truth then just as she did when she was on the stand. What I believe is going on with TLM is she needs prompting and encouragement for her to react. TLM works on dares. Necro music dared/prompted her to write sick things in her journals, letters, MR dared he to abduct Tori and I wouldn't be surprised to find out some other kid dared her to nuke her dog. It would be interesting to know how old she was when she nuked her cute doggy. Four? Maybe 12? Age would play a big roll in the nuking of the dog. I would think a four year old child without a role model in her life might not know the consequences of what nuking a dog would do. So she wanted to hear it (scream){of course that was the defenses wording}. TLM may have wanted to hear it bark. Just as some child would knock on a door to hear their dog bark. We do not know what her rationale was for nuking her dog so I think we should not use that against her.:moo:

Poor TLM. Necro made her write sick things, MR made her abduct Tori, some other kid made her nuke her dog. Who made her allegedly assault the other inmate in January? Who made her stab the person at the bus stop? Who made her throw the rock through the window at the OPP office? Who made her choke the man in Sudbury? Who made her punch that girl in the face (unprovoked) in 2006? What about all the other threats and assaults on other youths in custody? Who made her assault her mother, not once, but three different occasions? Oh yes, those last three were her mother's fault. One time she poked her, one time she made her lose a job, and one time she burned her with a cigarette. Who'd she do the credit card fraud for? Someone must have made her do that too.

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for TLM. Nobody made her do any of those things. She made a conscious choice and she did them, all on her own.

JMO

 

[Tahorn]

Could be a few explanations....

Do the seats fold down? Perhaps used as a makeshift platform for some sexual activity....

Would have it been possible one of them to have cut themselves on the utility knife during the cleanup or cutting of the seat fabric?

If there was a struggle in the backseat, could have TS inflicted devensive wounds on one or both???

Could have been cut while removing a seat?

I know when I clean my cars, I get them all finished but how many times have I overlooked wiping down the leather on the backs of the seat? Usually everytime.

Was MR car seats leather or cloth? Assuming cloth would be harder to clean or notice blood spots especially if it's a dark fabric.

one would place ones hand there as leverage to get put of the back seat.

 

[Ardy]

I don't know about this MR was a crafty, master manipulator who manipulated a known life time manipulator to do his bidding theory.....and then..........

Turned off his phone leaving Woodstock..........and decided turning it back on at the murder scene was a good idea

Had TLM cut the backseat and throw foam out the window.....and then stick the seat in front of his house for 4-5 days.

Threw the knife used by TLM to cut the seat back into his toolbox.

Stopped in Guelph to buy drugs and chat with BA.

Hang onto his gym bag, instead of throwing it out with the other things, which were never found.

Tell TLM to throw her shoes out the window, instead of throwing them out with the other things that were never found.

Drive to a car wash and go into a convenience store to change individually. A car wash that was never identified by TLM. A convenience store that likely had a video camera.......but was never found. Why did they go into a store to change? Were their clothes all bloody? Nobody would notice two people coming into a store with bloody clothes and changing?

And ultimately the biggest, stupidest thing a crafty manipulator would do.....

Count on TLM to keep her mouth shut forever. Why not just kill her too?

Way, way, way too many unanswered questions to make a judgement yet.

As the Judge said......examine all the evidence, take an analytic view, and keep an open mind until the trial is complete.............

JMO............

 

[dilbert]

Poor TLM. Necro made her write sick things, MR made her abduct Tori, some other kid made her nuke her dog. Who made her allegedly assault the other inmate in January? Who made her stab the person at the bus stop? Who made her throw the rock through the window at the OPP office? Who made her choke the man in Sudbury? Who made her punch that girl in the face (unprovoked) in 2006? What about all the other threats and assaults on other youths in custody? Who made her assault her mother, not once, but three different occasions? Oh yes, those last three were her mother's fault. One time she poked her, one time she made her lose a job, and one time she burned her with a cigarette. Who'd she do the credit card fraud for? Someone must have made her do that too.

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for TLM. Nobody made her do any of those things. She made a conscious choice and she did them, all on her own.

JMO

:yourock: :goodpost: