What details would you like clarified?

[Jayelles]

I think her killer came into the house that night but was not a stranger. I think her killer is a very disturbed individual who harboured resentment towards Jonbenet beyond all reason. I'd like to know where Patsy took off her jacket that night. Was it in her bedroom or did she leave it downstairs?

 

[Jayelles]

I think the killer didn't like children much and possibly little girls even less.

 

[BlueCrab]

aussiesheila,

When the body was found by John he says the arms were tied tightly over her head. From the 1998 interviews:

JOHN RAMSEY: "And I tried to untie her arms; they were tied up behind her head."

LOU SMIT: "Were they tied tight?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah, very tight."


There is evidence that JonBenet had been strung up and posed, thereby causing the wrist ligature to be very tight. John Ramsey's own testimony suggests this without him actually admitting it.

If you study the crimescene photo of the ligature it becomes apparent that BOTH wrists had likely been clasped together using just ONE ligature. The ligature was on the right wrist, and the tail of the cord from the ligature was probably wrapped twice around the left wrist -- pulling the two wrists tightly together. JonBenet's body weight, if she was strung up with both arms over her head but in a sitting position, would have kept the ligature tight, thus keeping the wrists together until John "cut her down". This would have released the pressure on the ligature, allowing the ligature to loosen and the cord on the left wrist to unravel and eventually fall off. Therefore, when John carried JonBenet upstairs the ligature was seen as being loosely tied to the right wrist and there was no cord on the left wrist.

The autopsy report, of course, detailed the wrist ligature as the coroner saw it, not as it had likely been originally tied prior to JonBenet being cut down.

BlueCrab

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

When the body was found by John he says the arms were tied tightly over her head. From the 1998 interviews:

JOHN RAMSEY: "And I tried to untie her arms; they were tied up behind her head."

LOU SMIT: "Were they tied tight?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah, very tight."


There is evidence that JonBenet had been strung up and posed, thereby causing the wrist ligature to be very tight. John Ramsey's own testimony suggests this without him actually admitting it.

If you study the crimescene photo of the ligature it becomes apparent that BOTH wrists had likely been clasped together using just ONE ligature. The ligature was on the right wrist, and the tail of the cord from the ligature was probably wrapped twice around the left wrist -- pulling the two wrists tightly together. JonBenet's body weight, if she was strung up with both arms over her head but in a sitting position, would have kept the ligature tight, thus keeping the wrists together until John "cut her down". This would have released the pressure on the ligature, allowing the ligature to loosen and the cord on the left wrist to unravel and eventually fall off. Therefore, when John carried JonBenet upstairs the ligature was seen as being loosely tied to the right wrist and there was no cord on the left wrist.

The autopsy report, of course, detailed the wrist ligature as the coroner saw it, not as it had likely been originally tied prior to JonBenet being cut down.

BlueCrab

Thanks for that quote from the interview. I had read that interview but obviously missed that point. I guess I didn't see it as significant at the time. Someone Linda? asked you about marks around the wrists if she had been bound tightly. What do you have to say about this?

And was the bit of the wrist ligature found on the floor of the cellar? Or was it not found at all? Maybe it is in the crimescene photo - I'll have to go and look.

You obviously do a lot of research, alot of time spent? Thanks for providing the info to the lazy ones like me.

Now your theory and mine differ markedly as to who applied the ligatures and what they were used for, who used the stun gun, and who wielded the baseball bat. I assume you think a baseball bat was used to hit her over the head? Which one do you think it was? The one inside the house? I think you must, but I think it was the one found outside in the yard.

It seems you think she would have been in the sitting position with her arms strung up above her head. Now the rope has to be attached to something overhead to be effective - right? Maybe you think there was someplace on the ceiling?

Now what about that chair in the doorway - do you think she could have been sitting on that when the abuse occurred? I actually think she would have been in the standing position, maybe standing on that chair in the doorway with her arms above her head and the rope attached to a device the abusers brought with them, that that could clip onto the top of the doorway. (I am assuming that the doorway was constructed the way most doorways are here, with 2 cm wide solid wood edging - if there was no doorway surrround then this can't be right obviously. Know of any relevant photos?).

 

[BlueCrab]

Someone Linda? asked you about marks around the wrists if she had been bound tightly. What do you have to say about this?

aussiesheila,

The cord ligature around the right wrist was on top of the sleeve of JonBenet's white sweater. This would have helped cushion the cord as it tightened on the wrist. Actually, there appears to be a very slight reddened area on JonBenet's wrist, but I guess I'm the only one who sees it.

John admits the ligature was tight when he was trying to untie it, yet it's obvious not tight in the autopsy photos. This lends credence to the theory that JonBenet had been strung up and the weight of her body was keeping the ligature tight. My guess is she was in a sitting position on the floor, propped up against the back of a chair, with her hands tied together over her head and tethered to the back of the chair.

In this position the weight of her upper torso would have kept the ligature tight, but it wasn't enough to cause circumferential abrasions on her wrists.

It's also interesting to note that John Ramsey said in the interviews that he was trying to keep her head from flopping to the side as he was trying to untie the ligature on her wrists. This to me means her torso was in an upright position and not lying prone on the floor.

Furthermore, what's the head doing flopping around when she was supposed to be in full rigor? Therefore, I'm certain John found JonBenet early on the morning of the 26th, before rigor set in, and about 3 or 4 hours before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM. When John carried JonBenet up from the basement at 1:05 PM on the 26th she was stiff as a board and her head was not flopping.

John is apparently caught in another lie.

BlueCrab

 

[capps]

"It's also interesting to note that John Ramsey said in the interviews that he was trying to keep her head from flopping to the side as he was trying to untie the ligature on her wrists. This to me means her torso was in an upright position and not lying prone on the floor.
Furthermore, what's the head doing flopping around when she was supposed to be in full rigor? Therefore, I'm certain John found JonBenet early on the morning of the 26th, before rigor set in, and about 3 or 4 hours before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM. When John carried JonBenet up from the basement at 1:05 PM on the 26th she was stiff as a board and her head was not flopping."

BlueCrab.

Now that would be a pretty good clue!
Please tell me that came from an interview with investigators .... and not a source from one of the tabloids.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

The cord ligature around the right wrist was on top of the sleeve of JonBenet's white sweater. This would have helped cushion the cord as it tightened on the wrist. Actually, there appears to be a very slight reddened area on JonBenet's wrist, but I guess I'm the only one who sees it.

John admits the ligature was tight when he was trying to untie it, yet it's obvious not tight in the autopsy photos. This lends credence to the theory that JonBenet had been strung up and the weight of her body was keeping the ligature tight. My guess is she was in a sitting position on the floor, propped up against the back of a chair, with her hands tied together over her head and tethered to the back of the chair.

In this position the weight of her upper torso would have kept the ligature tight, but it wasn't enough to cause circumferential abrasions on her wrists.

It's also interesting to note that John Ramsey said in the interviews that he was trying to keep her head from flopping to the side as he was trying to untie the ligature on her wrists. This to me means her torso was in an upright position and not lying prone on the floor.

Furthermore, what's the head doing flopping around when she was supposed to be in full rigor? Therefore, I'm certain John found JonBenet early on the morning of the 26th, before rigor set in, and about 3 or 4 hours before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM. When John carried JonBenet up from the basement at 1:05 PM on the 26th she was stiff as a board and her head was not flopping.

John is apparently caught in another lie.

BlueCrab

Thanks for the reply BlueCrab,

I'm not happy with your idea of JonBenet's hands being tethered to the back of the chair. I don't think the weight of the chair would be adequate for the purpose, one minor wriggle from JonBenet and I think the chair would topple over.

I just don't know enough about rigor to be able to make any other comments.

 

[BlueCrab]

"It's also interesting to note that John Ramsey said in the interviews that he was trying to keep her head from flopping to the side as he was trying to untie the ligature on her wrists. This to me means her torso was in an upright position and not lying prone on the floor.
Furthermore, what's the head doing flopping around when she was supposed to be in full rigor? Therefore, I'm certain John found JonBenet early on the morning of the 26th, before rigor set in, and about 3 or 4 hours before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM. When John carried JonBenet up from the basement at 1:05 PM on the 26th she was stiff as a board and her head was not flopping."

BlueCrab.

Now that would be a pretty good clue!
Please tell me that came from an interview with investigators .... and not a source from one of the tabloids.

capps,

Okay, here it is and it's not from the tabs. There are two sources -- one for the head ('98 interviews) and one for the rigor (Steve Thomas' book):

From the 1998 interviews here's John's comment to Mike Kane. John was trying to explain how he was attempting to untie the ligature on JonBenet's hands when he found her in the wine cellar:

JOHN RAMSEY: "Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

So why is John attempting to hold her head while trying to untie her hands? JonBenet was supposed to be lying flat on her back with hands crossed well above her head when John found her. There would be no reason for him to hold the head since her head was lying flat on the floor and her hands were straight up and not near her head. The head would have had nothing to do with the ligature on the wrists.

And from Steve Thomas' book, pg 28:

"John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenet, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child's head was above his, facing him, her arms were raised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead."

It appears John slipped again. He unconsciously mixed his fake story with what truthfully happened -- a standard behavior problem when someone is fibbing a story. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that John found JonBenet hours before the 911 call was made. The chair blocking the trainroom door revealed he was lying and had been in the basement long before the cops and Fleet White made their searches.

JonBenet was in full rigor when found at 1:05 PM. The head would not need support if she was picked up. It takes about 12 hours after death to reach full rigor. This means JonBenet may have died around 1:00 AM. If John found her one or two hours after she died she would barely be in rigor and the head would need support if she was picked up.

BlueCrab

 

[aussiesheila]

capps,

Okay, here it is and it's not from the tabs. There are two sources -- one for the head ('98 interviews) and one for the rigor (Steve Thomas' book):

From the 1998 interviews here's John's comment to Mike Kane. John was trying to explain how he was attempting to untie the ligature on JonBenet's hands when he found her in the wine cellar:

JOHN RAMSEY: "Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

So why is John attempting to hold her head while trying to untie her hands? JonBenet was supposed to be lying flat on her back with hands crossed well above her head when John found her. There would be no reason for him to hold the head since her head was lying flat on the floor and her hands were straight up and not near her head. The head would have had nothing to do with the ligature on the wrists.

And from Steve Thomas' book, pg 28:

"John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenet, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child's head was above his, facing him, her arms were raised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead."

It appears John slipped again. He unconsciously mixed his fake story with what truthfully happened -- a standard behavior problem when someone is fibbing a story. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that John found JonBenet hours before the 911 call was made. The chair blocking the trainroom door revealed he was lying and had been in the basement long before the cops and Fleet White made their searches.

JonBenet was in full rigor when found at 1:05 PM. The head would not need support if she was picked up. It takes about 12 hours after death to reach full rigor. This means JonBenet may have died around 1:00 AM. If John found her one or two hours after she died she would barely be in rigor and the head would need support if she was picked up.

BlueCrab

But BlueCrab, John just said "I was trying to hold her head"

He didn't say WHY he was holding her head.

You have ASSUMED he was holding her head to stop it from flopping sideways, but really, I don't think you can justifiably conclude this.

John might have been holding her head because, having just found his beloved daughter's body, that was the part of her that he so desperately needed to hold and keep on holding and not let go of, even as he untied her hands.

 

[capps]

capps,

Okay, here it is and it's not from the tabs. There are two sources -- one for the head ('98 interviews) and one for the rigor (Steve Thomas' book):

From the 1998 interviews here's John's comment to Mike Kane. John was trying to explain how he was attempting to untie the ligature on JonBenet's hands when he found her in the wine cellar:

JOHN RAMSEY: "Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

So why is John attempting to hold her head while trying to untie her hands? JonBenet was supposed to be lying flat on her back with hands crossed well above her head when John found her. There would be no reason for him to hold the head since her head was lying flat on the floor and her hands were straight up and not near her head. The head would have had nothing to do with the ligature on the wrists.

And from Steve Thomas' book, pg 28:

"John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenet, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child's head was above his, facing him, her arms were raised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead."

It appears John slipped again. He unconsciously mixed his fake story with what truthfully happened -- a standard behavior problem when someone is fibbing a story. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that John found JonBenet hours before the 911 call was made. The chair blocking the trainroom door revealed he was lying and had been in the basement long before the cops and Fleet White made their searches.

JonBenet was in full rigor when found at 1:05 PM. The head would not need support if she was picked up. It takes about 12 hours after death to reach full rigor. This means JonBenet may have died around 1:00 AM. If John found her one or two hours after she died she would barely be in rigor and the head would need support if she was picked up.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

I appreciate you looking up that information for me.

John's statement was a bit different than I was mentally visualizing in my head,thinking that JB's head was flopping all over the place while JB was trying to untie the knot.

But you are correct,if she was in full rigor,and her hands were extended over her head,at no time would there be a need for John to "try to hold her head". Interesting.

This would have been a perfect time for Kane to push JB a bit further,ask John to show him exactly what he was doing,and catch him in his inconsistency,and retort back with a "that's impossible John,she was in full rigor mortis!" Make John sweat a little.

But that never happened in any of the interviews,and that was the investigators downfall ...I think they could have had JB and PR tripping so bad over their statements if they pushed further,that they would have gotten the Ramsey's so rattled,and more of the truth would have come forth.

Another opportunity missed.

 

[capps]

BlueCrab,

Did you catch this?
Here is a part of one of your previous posts in this thread:

"When the body was found by John he says the arms were tied tightly over her head. From the 1998 interviews:
JOHN RAMSEY: "And I tried to untie her arms; they were tied up behind her head."
LOU SMIT: "Were they tied tight?"
JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah, very tight."

John states "they (her arms) were tied up BEHIND her head.That would make sense,if before she was in full rigor,and her hands were tied behind her head,not above her head,he was TRYING TO HOLD HER HEAD,to untie the arm. Autopsy states her hands were above her head. Was her body rearranged at some point?

 

[UKGuy]

JOHN RAMSEY: "Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Do we have any crime-scene or pathology photograph to illustrate the alignment of JonBenet's head with respect to her body?

I always assumed the above quote referred to parental concern, or filial love towards JonBenet, in that he did not want to disturb her neck/head region due to the ligature and paintbrush construction?

So was her head at 90 degrees to her shoulders ?


Why do think she was posed, what would be the motive?

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Do we have any crime-scene or pathology photograph to illustrate the alignment of JonBenet's head with respect to her body?

I always assumed the above quote referred to parental concern, or filial love towards JonBenet, in that he did not want to disturb her neck/head region due to the ligature and paintbrush construction?

So was her head at 90 degrees to her shoulders ?


Why do think she was posed, what would be the motive?

UKGuy,

When found at 1:05 PM her head was turned to the right and she was in full rigor. I don't know about the alignment.

John says he didn't see the ligature around the neck with the stick tied to it until after he had brought her upstairs.

I consider the thought of JonBenet being grotesquely posed because there's some evidence that this murder was the work of a sexual sadist. The injuries that appear to be stun gun burns on the face, back and leg suggests torture had accompanied the bondage, the penetration, and the possible use of feces. Sexual sadists obtain pleasure from inflicting pain and humiliation on their victims.

In the sexual sadist theory John would have found JonBenet shortly after she had been killed. She would have been strung up in an indecent sitting position, legs apart, with her back leaning against something such as a chair and with crossed hands bound together and tied to an overhead object to keep her torso from falling over. Her unsupported head would have been tilted to the right because the neck ligature was positioned at the front left of her neck, causing the large red triangular abrasion at that spot.

John would have found JonBenet around one or two AM after being awakened by her scream and just minutes after she died. The extreme tightening of the neck ligature and the bash on the head both likely took place just seconds after the scream.

The Ramseys cleaned up JonBenet and repositioned the body to give her a measure of dignity in death.

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

When found at 1:05 PM her head was turned to the right and she was in full rigor. I don't know about the alignment.

John says he didn't see the ligature around the neck with the stick tied to it until after he had brought her upstairs.

I consider the thought of JonBenet being grotesquely posed because there's some evidence that this murder was the work of a sexual sadist. The injuries that appear to be stun gun burns on the face, back and leg suggests torture had accompanied the bondage, the penetration, and the possible use of feces. Sexual sadists obtain pleasure from inflicting pain and humiliation on their victims.

In the sexual sadist theory John would have found JonBenet shortly after she had been killed. She would have been strung up in an indecent sitting position, legs apart, with her back leaning against something such as a chair and with crossed hands bound together and tied to an overhead object to keep her torso from falling over. Her unsupported head would have been tilted to the right because the neck ligature was positioned at the front left of her neck, causing the large red triangular abrasion at that spot.

John would have found JonBenet around one or two AM after being awakened by her scream and just minutes after she died. The extreme tightening of the neck ligature and the bash on the head both likely took place just seconds after the scream.

The Ramseys cleaned up JonBenet and repositioned the body to give her a measure of dignity in death.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,
Thanks for your reply, you may be correct, and JonBenet's death was at the hands of a sexual sadist.


Considering these remarks:
JOHN RAMSEY: "Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

One sentence here seems to be consistent with JonBenets discovered position, in that "tilted to one side" is not much different from "When found at 1:05 PM her head was turned to the right". The second sentence may just mean what it suggests. Although it does seem odd, yet given the circumstances, he has just found his daughters corpse, would he not want to hold her head?


I actually find it remarkable that "John says he didn't see the ligature around the neck with the stick tied to it until after he had brought her upstairs".

Yet by all accounts she was lying face up, he removed the tape, so he could see that, although it was dark in color, he also untied or loosened the cord around her wrists, which might be impossible in unsighted conditions, yet he failed to notice the ligature and paintbrush handle? I dont find that credible!

This feature deserves a comment:
"The Ramseys cleaned up JonBenet and repositioned the body to give her a measure of dignity in death."

The posing of a corpse by a sexual sadist can mean what you suggest i.e. "Sexual sadists obtain pleasure from inflicting pain and humiliation on their victims."

Generally they tend to indecently pose the corpse, and is intended as a public signal.


The interesting question is why would the Ramsey's cleanup her body and reposition it, given this is a horrific homicide? Why not leave it as it is, and as per the ransom note response, dial 911 immediately?

Why are the Ramsey's staging a crime-scene for a sexual sadist where is the percentage in that?

Also when you suggest the Ramsey's did reposition her body, do you mean moved it and aligned it horizontally on the floor, or something else?

Personally I think its an open question if she was ever posed, if she was, then for me, it would change the nature of her homicide.

I think there was at least two separate staging instances, one in the wine-cellar, and one upstairs, with the possibilty of an intermediate one elsewhere in the basement. So it could be in one of those JonBenet was posed.



.

 

[sandraladeda]

I guess my problem with using the term "sexual Sadist" is that I would expect the violation of JBR to be more violent.

When NP stated JBR was sexually assaulted "only a little bit" or whatever the exact phrasing, I think it was an unfortunate choice of words, and I do not wish to make light of any sexual violation of a 6 year old girl. I would expect a sexual sadist to very violently assault the victim, and thus I would have expected JBR's injuries to be very graphic, very obvious at first glance, and far more injurious to her than my reading up on the subject has indicated. This is why I, so far, lean towards the possibility (note I am not yet committed to this idea!) that the sexual assault aspects of the crime were staged to make it look as though it was a sex crime. This red herring, so to speak, along with the red herring of the ransom note, perhaps indicates a perp or perps desperately creating scenarios to point attention away from themselves.

Comments?

 

[UKGuy]

I guess my problem with using the term "sexual Sadist" is that I would expect the violation of JBR to be more violent.

When NP stated JBR was sexually assaulted "only a little bit" or whatever the exact phrasing, I think it was an unfortunate choice of words, and I do not wish to make light of any sexual violation of a 6 year old girl. I would expect a sexual sadist to very violently assault the victim, and thus I would have expected JBR's injuries to be very graphic, very obvious at first glance, and far more injurious to her than my reading up on the subject has indicated. This is why I, so far, lean towards the possibility (note I am not yet committed to this idea!) that the sexual assault aspects of the crime were staged to make it look as though it was a sex crime. This red herring, so to speak, along with the red herring of the ransom note, perhaps indicates a perp or perps desperately creating scenarios to point attention away from themselves.

Comments?

sandraladeda,

You have to wonder if "only a little bit" referred to prior to her death? The phrase sexual sadist has specific connotations within the law enforcement community, its not exactly the same a violent sexual predator. I think it was Lou Smit who first used the phrase wrt JonBenet's death, since it chimes perfectly with his theory that JonBenet was subjected to some form of Erotic Asphyxiation, thus torturing JonBenet as he also assaulted her.

Lou Smit has been characterised as a visionary type of detective, using a mixture of deduction and intuitive insight to close cases.

He is on record as engaging in prayer sessions with the Ramseys, who he describes as Christian , like himself, so his stun-gun theory along with the garrote mutating into an Erotic Asphyxiation Device, and the use of these imaginative elements by a sexual sadist, appears to originate from him?

So some people would suggest to you, is being sexually assaulted, stun-gunned, and erotically asphyxiated not enough evidence, what more do you need to demonstrate that this was the work of a sexual sadist?

Lou Smit states that the ligature was constructed precisely and expertly by someone who knew what he was doing, he says that the killer was a "sexual sadist." That there is evidence to indicate the garrote was made in the basement, strongly suggesting the killing happened there?

Since JonBenet's hair is tied into the knotting on the paintbrush, and her cross and chain are entwined in the ligature, so tightly incidentally, the Coroner Dr. John Meyer, had to cut her hair to remove the cord. This is clear forensic evidence that the purpose of the ligature was not to act an EA Device, as claimed by Lou Smit, but simply that of a classical garrote, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote , particularly when you consider Lou Smit stated it had been "constructed precisely and expertly by someone who knew what he was doing" patently not so, the paintbrush handle was attached to the ligature, after she was dead, and the forensic evidence is not lying!

So this along with a small degree of concurrent sexual assault, although there may be a history of prior sexual abuse, leads me to rejecting the concept of a sexual sadist as characterised by Lou Smit, being responsible for the death of JonBenet. It may look good on the front page of the tabloids, and feel just right on crime forums, but for me it just panders to the "Silence of The Lambs" style of investigation!


.

 

[aussiesheila]

BlueCrab,

Do we have any crime-scene or pathology photograph to illustrate the alignment of JonBenet's head with respect to her body?

I always assumed the above quote referred to parental concern, or filial love towards JonBenet, in that he did not want to disturb her neck/head region due to the ligature and paintbrush construction?

So was her head at 90 degrees to her shoulders ?


Why do think she was posed, what would be the motive?

There are no crime scene photos of the body, but there are autopsy photos. One of them shows JonBenet's neck with the cord around it and the head is tilted to one side.

I envisage a totally different scenario from BlueCrab's.

IMO if she was held in the standing position with her arms tied at the wrists and held outstretched above her head during an abuse session, and was killed in this position, then her body could well have been left in this position when it was laid horizontally on the floor of the cellar maybe an hour or so after the killing. (doesn't a body go through an initial but temporary stiffening shortly (about an hour?) after death and remain so for a short period of time (several hours?).

If she had been left in this position on the cellar floor, the weight and shape of the head might have been enough to cause it to tilt sideways some time later, so that it came to rest on one of her outstretched arms and as it appears in the autopsy photo.

IMO this is what happened and this is how John found her when he first saw her at 1 pm the next day. John said he didn't see the rope around her neck. I think he was trying to untie her wrists and cradle her head in his arms at the same time, as a distressed father might very well do.

 

[aussiesheila]

UKGuy,

and the possible use of feces.
BlueCrab

Thanks BlueCrab, you've just given me an idea (but which you probably won't agree with, sorry)

I think very likely JonBenet might have actually soiled herself at some time during the abuse and the abusers were turned off by it so wiped her up with a black cloth before they continued to abuse her.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Thanks for your reply, you may be correct, and JonBenet's death was at the hands of a sexual sadist.

Why are the Ramsey's staging a crime-scene for a sexual sadist where is the percentage in that?

UKGuy,

IMO the Ramseys know who he is, but a family member is also involved. Thus, the staging and the coverup.

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

IMO the Ramseys know who he is, but a family member is also involved. Thus, the staging and the coverup.

BlueCrab

Well sexual sadist or not it does appear that a family member is involved, otherwise there is no rationale in staging the crime scene.

A violent sexually motivated sadistic intruder is not going to hang around, re-arranging the crime scene , wiping JonBenet down, re-locating her body, then having a seat while he/she authors a stereotypical ransom note!