What do we really know about dec 24 .06

[dingo]

Not to be picky, but shouldn't that be Dec. 24, '96?

Youre right, my mistake.

 

[itsreenw]

I'm sure this has all been discussed but I'm just now reading PMPT.

A few things don't register with me. First of all, the ransom note didn't say what phone they'd call on between 8 and 10. If JR owned a yacht and a plane, he certainly had a cell phone. Did they think to monitor the cell phones?

When JR was overheard talking to his pilot, and questioned about it by LE, he only mentioned that he, PR and BR would be going to Atlanta. What about his other kids that were in town?? Have I not read far enough yet? Did they have somewhere safe to stay? It seems if he was getting his family away for safety, he should've insisted that ALL his family members go. Heck, why did he even let them come to CO if he was going to catch the next thing smokin' to Atlanta?

And while Patsy was "on show" for LE and her friends, one of the first things she said was she had to get out of that house and was never coming back. How could any parent think about deserting their baby like that, especially so soon after her death. She was still layed out on the floor for goodness sake and all they can think about is getting out of there. How odd.

I can't believe LE didn't ask JR what biz was more pressing in Atlanta, than his daughter's murder. Especially since he was supposed to be flying to Charlevioux that morning in the first place and hadn't planned on tending to anything else that day. Therefore, he must have just "discovered" this EXTREMELY IMPORTANT matter? LE had the opportunity right there to catch him in a lie.

According to the book, the Access folks didn't tell LE anything pressing had come up related to the business, his family was all there with him, so what could it possibly have been?
They have to be the most heartless parents in the world.
Ok, gotta get back to the book!

 

[narlacat]

How the Ramsey's could have just walked out and left their precious daughter lying beside that tree that day, I will never know.
Heartless is right.
I have yet to hear one story about Patsy having to be dragged away from 'that child'. They couldnt get out of there fast enough. It's called distancing.

I guess they were monitoring all the phones, I know at one stage John's cell phone was used by LE. Noone seemed to mention it when the time came and went and no call had come in.

 

[Becba]

How the Ramsey's could have just walked out and left their precious daughter lying beside that tree that day, I will never know.
Heartless is right.
I have yet to hear one story about Patsy having to be dragged away from 'that child'. They couldnt get out of there fast enough. It's called distancing.

I guess they were monitoring all the phones, I know at one stage John's cell phone was used by LE. Noone seemed to mention it when the time came and went and no call had come in.

Excellent point. PR has to be dragged away from her dead child then they are ready to fly off to another state.
Plus JR managed to carry JBR's stiff cold body so overcome he thought she could be revived. Then he makes arrangements to get out of Dodge.
Instead of calling family for support he is making arrangements to leave. And they both say they were so stricken with grief they could hardly get out of bed for several months. Well JR could sure function well enough to make arrangements to leave in a hurry.

 

[itsreenw]

I am just reading the part of PMPT where the autopsy is being performed and he is examining the vaginal area. I assume JBR would be laying on her back when he is dictating this. If he is standing at the foot of the autopsy table, his left/right sides would be opposite of JBR's right/left side since he is facing her.

So when he refers to "right side"and 'left side', are we to assume he is referring to HIS right and left as if her was standing at JBR's feet and facing her??

It states that " what remained of the hymen was a rim of tissue running from the 10 o'clock to 2 o' clock position.

There was "reddening" of the vaginals walls, most notibly on the right side and toward the rear.
(so the top of JBR's hymen was still intact but the right side and rear had been irritated)

There was also an abrasion on the hymeneal orifice at the 7 o'clock position (so that would be at the bottom, slightly to the left)

Being left-handed, I know that when I am trying to cut something, screw in a light bulb, thread a needle, write something, whatever...my hand positioning always tends to make the object I am handling veer to the right slightly.

Reading the autopsy findings leads me to believe that whoever violated JBR was probably left-handed. I believe the object enetered slightly from the left and the friction reddened the right walls and rear of the vagina. JMO.

Does anyone know if it states anywhere what hand each of the R's are dominant with?

Again, I am sorry if this has already been asked/answered but there is SO much in our forums on the case I wouldn't even know where to start looking.

 

[dingo]

How the Ramsey's could have just walked out and left their precious daughter lying beside that tree that day, I will never know.
Heartless is right.
I have yet to hear one story about Patsy having to be dragged away from 'that child'. They couldnt get out of there fast enough. It's called distancing.

I guess they were monitoring all the phones, I know at one stage John's cell phone was used by LE. Noone seemed to mention it when the time came and went and no call had come in.

I think their plan was to get Burke on that plane as fast as they could.I can think of no other plausable reason for their actions that morning.

 

[Zman]

How the Ramsey's could have just walked out and left their precious daughter lying beside that tree that day, I will never know.
Heartless is right.
I have yet to hear one story about Patsy having to be dragged away from 'that child'. They couldnt get out of there fast enough. It's called distancing.

I guess they were monitoring all the phones, I know at one stage John's cell phone was used by LE. Noone seemed to mention it when the time came and went and no call had come in.

The house is a crime scene.
I think the R's were asked to leave the house.
I don't think they'd be allowed to take JBR with them.
It's not their falt JBR laid in the house and the corener didn't show up till 7 pm to remove the body. I'm sure they were not to happy about that either.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

How the Ramsey's could have just walked out and left their precious daughter lying beside that tree that day, I will never know.
Heartless is right.
I have yet to hear one story about Patsy having to be dragged away from 'that child'. They couldnt get out of there fast enough. It's called distancing.

I guess they were monitoring all the phones, I know at one stage John's cell phone was used by LE. Noone seemed to mention it when the time came and went and no call had come in.

The gist of the ransom note was for JR to not call police, get money, wait for a call between 8 and 10 AM, or else they would 'behead' his daughter.

The beheading term has never been used before in reference to a child, and the term was linked to JR's actions in the morning hours.

Why?

Because the intruders were 'distancing'.

 

[why_nutt]

The beheading term has never been used before in reference to a child, and the term was linked to JR's actions in the morning hours.

Why?

Because the intruders were 'distancing'.

Never in reference to a child? So you have never read Alice In Wonderland, where the Queen threatens to behead Alice.

Oh, and where appears this overlap with the ransom note's reaction.

`There's more evidence to come yet, please your Majesty,' said the White Rabbit, jumping up in a great hurry; `this paper has just been picked up.'

`What's in it?' said the Queen.

`I haven't opened it yet,' said the White Rabbit, `but it seems to be a letter, written by the prisoner to--to somebody.'

`It must have been that,' said the King, `unless it was written to nobody, which isn't usual, you know.'

`Who is it directed to?' said one of the jurymen.

`It isn't directed at all,' said the White Rabbit; `in fact, there's nothing written on the outside.' He unfolded the paper as he spoke, and added `It isn't a letter, after all: it's a set of verses.'

`Are they in the prisoner's handwriting?' asked another of they jurymen.

`No, they're not,' said the White Rabbit, `and that's the queerest thing about it.' (The jury all looked puzzled.)

`He must have imitated somebody else's hand,' said the King. (The jury all brightened up again.)

 

[itsreenw]

The house is a crime scene.
I think the R's were asked to leave the house.
I don't think they'd be allowed to take JBR with them.
It's not their falt JBR laid in the house and the corener didn't show up till 7 pm to remove the body. I'm sure they were not to happy about that either.

Zman, the Ramseys were asked to leave the house but it wasn't until after they both expressed that they wanted to leave. Per Patsy's statement in her deposition, she said one of the 1st thoughts after seeing JBR dead was to get out of that house and never return:

From PR's 12/11/01 deposition with Chris Wolf:

"I think John said she was gone and he was crying and we kneeled over her and I felt her cheek and her cheek and she was really cold and (inaudible) cold (inaudible) and I just prayed to God to bring her back (inaudible) and so I just (inaudible) she wouldn’t be there anymore and get out of this house and I’m never coming back (inaudible). *Sorry. I don’t remember what happened after that."

*HER SELECTIVE MEMORY JUST KILLS ME!!! :banghead:

JR wanted to leave the state & take PR and BR (but no mention of his other kids that had come to town):

At around 1:45pm, Mason & Walker were planning to move the R's to the Holiday Inn, however, before they informed the R's, JR was overheard in his study, on the phone with his pilot making plans to fly somewhere before nightfall. JR TOLD Mason that he, Patsy and Burke would be flying to Atlanta for that ever-so-important biz. Mason told JR to cool his heels because he had some unfinished biz with BPD.

That "good ol' southern common sense" should have told him that BPD would want to have a lil' talk with him that day. Heck, HE should've wanted to talk to THEM-don't ya think??

 

[narlacat]

The house is a crime scene.
I think the R's were asked to leave the house.
I don't think they'd be allowed to take JBR with them.
It's not their falt JBR laid in the house and the corener didn't show up till 7 pm to remove the body. I'm sure they were not to happy about that either.

Well, admittedly I haven't read all Ramsey case related books and I haven't read DOI except the little bits I pick up on the forum, but in all the reading I have done I haven't read anywhere anything about Patsy and John being unhappy../..put out../..devastated about their having to leave their daughter's body that day.
They just left.
Just like that.

 

[Brefie]

The house is a crime scene.
I think the R's were asked to leave the house.
I don't think they'd be allowed to take JBR with them.
It's not their falt JBR laid in the house and the corener didn't show up till 7 pm to remove the body. I'm sure they were not to happy about that either.

There has never been a mention of the R's being unhappy to leave the house with JBR stil laid there. EVERYTHING they say is to the contrary.

Not to mention a LOT of people think it is precisely their fault that JBR was laying their dead.

 

[why_nutt]

There has never been a mention of the R's being unhappy to leave the house with JBR stil laid there. EVERYTHING they say is to the contrary.

Not to mention a LOT of people think it is precisely their fault that JBR was laying their dead.

You are right. The moment JonBenet was put on the living room carpet, John and Patsy may have put on the mask of being grieving parents, but what they proved they really were were selfish parents. JonBenet was their toy, their toy was now broken, and they wanted it thrown away as quickly as possible.

I had never figured out how to articulate the idea before now, but I realized something this morning. Every time the Ramseys say that they used to ask JonBenet if she wanted to do the pageants, I now realize that what they are really telling us all is, "We wanted to make sure that JonBenet was not going to make it hard for us to play with her as a toy. Toys should not argue with you, we just wanted to make sure she would not break down in a tantrum in front of the judges and make us look bad."

From one o'clock p.m. on December 26th, name a thing the Ramseys did to show their love for JonBenet. There is nothing. They buried her in a dress she wore only once to try and win money, put on her hands a bracelet and a cross she never wore while alive, and covered her with a scarf she never knew existed. Everything in her coffin was strange to her. The only exceptions were two items: the Sister Socks doll, and the bucket crown. The doll was the idea of Priscilla White, and the crown was the idea of Kristine Griffin. I wager it never occurs to John and Patsy that they should be ashamed of how two relative strangers to their daughter cared more about what JonBenet was like as a person and what her loves were, then her own family did.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

And to this day, strangers still care more about JonBenet and what happened to her than her own parents do. We are the ones keeping this going, we are the ones searching for the killer or at least some answers, while they continue to do nothing except whatever they think serves themselves, not their murdered daughter, best.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Never in reference to a child? So you have never read Alice In Wonderland, where the Queen threatens to behead Alice.

Oh, and where appears this overlap with the ransom note's reaction.

`There's more evidence to come yet, please your Majesty,' said the White Rabbit, jumping up in a great hurry; `this paper has just been picked up.'

`What's in it?' said the Queen.

`I haven't opened it yet,' said the White Rabbit, `but it seems to be a letter, written by the prisoner to--to somebody.'

`It must have been that,' said the King, `unless it was written to nobody, which isn't usual, you know.'

`Who is it directed to?' said one of the jurymen.

`It isn't directed at all,' said the White Rabbit; `in fact, there's nothing written on the outside.' He unfolded the paper as he spoke, and added `It isn't a letter, after all: it's a set of verses.'

`Are they in the prisoner's handwriting?' asked another of they jurymen.

`No, they're not,' said the White Rabbit, `and that's the queerest thing about it.' (The jury all looked puzzled.)

`He must have imitated somebody else's hand,' said the King. (The jury all brightened up again.)

What (on Earth) does Alice in Wonderland have to do with the real murder of JBR. I think I'll stick to my claim that nobody has (in actual real life, not in a fantasy make-believe story) used the term behead in reference to a child before.

 

[narlacat]

What (on Earth) does Alice in Wonderland have to do with the real murder of JBR. I think I'll stick to my claim that nobody has (in actual real life, not in a fantasy make-believe story) used the term behead in reference to a child before.

The ransom note was fantasy! ( as in make believe!)

 

[itsreenw]

And to this day, strangers still care more about JonBenet and what happened to her than her own parents do. We are the ones keeping this going, we are the ones searching for the killer or at least some answers, while they continue to do nothing except whatever they think serves themselves, not their murdered daughter, best.

NP, I never even thought about it that way until you just said it, but you are right. The public is more concerned with seeing justice prevail. But then again, we are expecting too much of them. After all, they did say on national tv they wanted to "move on".

Patsy even said she was relieved that JBR wouldn't have to live through losing a child or stage 4 cancer. Uh, 'scuse me??? Was she trying to compare what she was going through to what little JBR endured in her final hours.

She wasn't relieved JBR was spared from those 2 situations had she grown up.-she was refocusing the attention back to HER pain and HER loss. A normal person, after losing a child (IMO) wouldn't be thinking on the positive side of their child dying so young. Would anyone reading this be thinking "oh well, at least she didn't have to live long enough to have a heart attack or go through menopause".

Her statement to me showed lack of compassion at all for her daughter-it was all about Patsy. She had to make sure everyone remembered SHE had lost a child AND was dealing with stage 4 cancer at the same time.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The ransom note was fantasy! ( as in make believe!)

The ransom note was an actual, real manuscript of one of JBR's killers. No fantasy there.

 

[Brefie]

The ransom note was an actual, real manuscript of one of JBR's killers. No fantasy there.

Oh contrare, mon frere (sp, sp, sp, ???)

The whole thing was make believe. Patsy was not part of a foreign faction, and she made up all kinds of stuff about where JBR was.

 

[IrishMist]

What (on Earth) does Alice in Wonderland have to do with the real murder of JBR. I think I'll stick to my claim that nobody has (in actual real life, not in a fantasy make-believe story) used the term behead in reference to a child before.

I didn't know that, Hold/Hat. Do you have a link so I can read more?