What if...

[aussiesheila]

The pivotal point in the Ramsey case is which came first: the blow to JB's head or the strangulation. Seeing it described like that does not clear it up. All it says is that JB was still alive when strangled, a scenario which could be possible supposing she was in a coma after the blow to her head.

It doesn't make much difference to my theory which came first. Which way do you want it to be for your theory? Oh yes I think it has to be blow to head first and strangulation a long time later. Maybe it fits the evidence. I'm not sure.

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>So I am asking the RDIs to answer the question "Why write a dumb ransom note when they could have written a much more believable hate note?"<<

It may have been dumb, but it worked!! Everything they did and with a wee bit of help from an inept police department, worked!
They have not been charged, they walk free.

To answer your question, I'd say because at that moment in time they were panicked, extremely stressed and only had a rough idea of what they were going to say in the note. I'd say John left the note bit up to Patsy whilst he staged the body.
Time consuming stuff, with daylight approaching and the need to regain their composure ( and in Patsy's case reapply make-up), there may have been no time for John to disagree with the content of the note, think up new content, get his gloves out and then re write it.

 

[UKGuy]

Oh dear this is where we start going around in circles.

Yes you are absolutely correct, I do not believe and I have never believed that John was involved in the coverup.

When I said I thought 'John would have been smart enough to think of that' I was talking about other people's RDI theories which are that John and/or Patsy molested and killed JonBenet and tied a ligature around her neck and covered up with writing a ransom note.

Holdontoyourhat suggested that if they HAD done this crime and HAD been trying to cover up, it would have been a far better idea to have written a hate note rather than a ransom note. And I agreed wholeheartedly.

And I am saying that the RDI scenario is very flawed because John would definitely not have written a ransom note, and an absurdly long and rambling one at that, he would most definitely have written a hate note because it would have been a far cleverer thing to do and John was clever enough to think of it. A hate note would have been so much more believable than a ransom note.

So I am asking the RDIs to answer the question "Why write a dumb ransom note when they could have written a much more believable hate note?"

And I am quite certain they will be unable to come up with a logical answer because IMO all of the variations of the scenarios that have John and Patsy molesting and killing their daughter either accidentally or on purpose and then writing that absurd ransom note in attempt to shift the blame to a failed kidnapper is so absurd that there can be no logical explanation.

aussiesheila,

The simple answer is that they did not write it someone else did. I've covered this elsewhere so I'll expand on it when I place my theory in the Members slot.


I have been reading Forensic Linguistics Advances in Forensic Stylistics, since chapter 10. is titled Case Study: JonBenet Ramsey. The author comes to the conclusion that neither Patsy or John wrote the ransom note, since little or no stylistic markers occur in the texts he was given, that also occur in the ransom note.

So it may be that another person wrote that ransom note!

 

[aussiesheila]

His name was Glenn Meyer, he cooperated with the police, gave writing and hair samples, passed a polygraph, and was cleared.

I knew he passed a polygraph but I didn't know he gave writing and hair samples. Are you sure about that? I don't particularly care about the writing sample as I don't think he wrote the note anyway, but the DNA sample might be interesting.

And what did the BPD find when they raided his room on Dec 26 and checked his car, the clothes he wore the previous day, investigated his comings and goings immediately after the murder, questioned his friends, his family? Oh whoops I forgot, they didn't do any of that did they, they were full-time investigating the Ramseys weren't they.

So does anyone know what GM has been up to over the last 9 years?

 

[aussiesheila]

My post stated that I think it is highly unlikely,that a mother would passively let a GROUP of her FRIENDS,continually abuse her six year old daughter,and then out of nowhere,a new member joins the group and kills her daughter,and then the mother willingly helps cover up the murder,and is selected to write a bogus ransom note.All this ... so she can keep her social standing intact.Yes,I think it is highly unlikely.

OK Capps, I take your point. It IS very hard to believe. Maybe one day I will be able to convince you. I'll keep trying.

Little point, not enough to convince you I know but never mind - I don't think it was JUST to keep her social standing that Patsy did this. I think it was also to keep it secret from John. I think that if he ever suspected that Patsy had not protected JonBenet there would have been hell to pay. I think Patsy was acutely aware of this and that it might spell the end of her marriage and she would possibly even lose custody of the children. That to Patsy would have been pretty high stakes I would have thought.

 

[trixie]

trixie, I have posted my theory on the member theories thread, three times actually since I keep revising it. Just read the latest one please (post 16). If you want to have another go at me after you have read it please do, I won't take offence. It is really difficult to explain what I mean when I say that I think Patsy knew about the abuse and people always interpret it in ways I hadn't intended. I don't mean it was a situation where "Patsy loaned JB out to pedophiles periodically". But I think there would be situations where people close to Patsy (relative, friend, associate) would have access to JonBenet at say a party or when babysitting and Patsy would not alarm herself should JonBenet disappear from her sight for periods up to an hour or so. Patsy could let herself believe that JonBenet was off somewhere else in the house playing with other children or watching a video or whatever and she wouldn't go and check on her.

The police WERE onto the fact (I think it is a fact) that JonBenet had suffered prior sexual abuse but early on were chasing up JOHN as the pedophile. This leads me to another aspect of my theory which I don't think I elaborated on in my member's theory, and that is that I believe the BPD were in cahoots with the pedophile ring and so avoided targetting them at the beginning of the investigation so evidence that might have been found that incriminated one of the true pedophiles was lost or was given time to be destroyed.

Later in the investigation Patsy was interviewed about possible sexual abuse of JonBenet and she was IMO, her usual evasive lying self and so cleverly avoided incriminating herself.

I don't want you or anyone to take offense at anything I post. That is never my intent. So in a few minutes I will go read your (latest) theory, but I must go find some Tylenol first. It works great on anticipated headaches. Give me 20 minutes for it to start working and I'll be right with you. Thanks.

 

[aussiesheila]

Because money didn't just talk - it held court for the whole investigation.

Well if it is just all to do with money wouldn't it have been better if Patsy HAD clubbed JonBenet to death for John simply to have contacted the police and said "My wife is not responsible for her actions, she has stage 4 ovarian cancer, she is profoundly depressed" and call in some specialist physicians say "Here is some money can you arrange for my wife to be declared legally insane"

Then they wouldn't have had to apply that ghastly ligature around their daughter's neck so tightly that it cut deeply into her skin, concocted that ridiculous ransom note and hidden their daughter's body in that dirty black basement for all those hours.

If their money could have talked they could have dealt with it all very quietly and discreetly. They wouldn't have had to endured police and media intrusion into their lives which they must have surely realised would come with the course you are suggesting they took.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well if it is just all to do with money wouldn't it have been better if Patsy HAD clubbed JonBenet to death for John simply to have contacted the police and said "My wife is not responsible for her actions, she has stage 4 ovarian cancer, she is profoundly depressed" and call in some specialist physicians say "Here is some money can you arrange for my wife to be declared legally insane"

Then they wouldn't have had to apply that ghastly ligature around their daughter's neck so tightly that it cut deeply into her skin, concocted that ridiculous ransom note and hidden their daughter's body in that dirty black basement for all those hours.

If their money could have talked they could have dealt with it all very quietly and discreetly. They wouldn't have had to endured police and media intrusion into their lives which they must have surely realised would come with the course you are suggesting they took.

While I'm not prescribing to your 'pedophile group of friends' theory just yet, I'm agreeing with the idea that any RDI scheme wouldn't have willingly invited all the police AND media attention.

Calling 911 to report a kidnapping, writing the wordiest and most brutal ransom note ever, and leaving JBR staged as a victim of a brutal murder certainly attracts attention. Coverups are usually designed to avoid, and not attract, attention. Thats why they call them coverups.

 

[trixie]

trixie, I have posted my theory on the member theories thread, three times actually since I keep revising it. Just read the latest one please (post 16). If you want to have another go at me after you have read it please do, I won't take offence. It is really difficult to explain what I mean when I say that I think Patsy knew about the abuse and people always interpret it in ways I hadn't intended. I don't mean it was a situation where "Patsy loaned JB out to pedophiles periodically". But I think there would be situations where people close to Patsy (relative, friend, associate) would have access to JonBenet at say a party or when babysitting and Patsy would not alarm herself should JonBenet disappear from her sight for periods up to an hour or so. Patsy could let herself believe that JonBenet was off somewhere else in the house playing with other children or watching a video or whatever and she wouldn't go and check on her.

The police WERE onto the fact (I think it is a fact) that JonBenet had suffered prior sexual abuse but early on were chasing up JOHN as the pedophile. This leads me to another aspect of my theory which I don't think I elaborated on in my member's theory, and that is that I believe the BPD were in cahoots with the pedophile ring and so avoided targetting them at the beginning of the investigation so evidence that might have been found that incriminated one of the true pedophiles was lost or was given time to be destroyed.

Later in the investigation Patsy was interviewed about possible sexual abuse of JonBenet and she was IMO, her usual evasive lying self and so cleverly avoided incriminating herself.

Okay, aussiesheila, the good news... I just went and read your theory. #16. It is very long and detailed. Can't say I agree with it but I do certainly respect your right to believe it and post it for all to read.
The bad news..for me...Tylenol didn't do the trick. Now I think I need a vicodin.

 

[aussiesheila]

Okay, aussiesheila, the good news... I just went and read your theory. #16. It is very long and detailed. Can't say I agree with it but I do certainly respect your right to believe it and post it for all to read.
The bad news..for me...Tylenol didn't do the trick. Now I think I need a vicodin.

Yes well I've been away which is bad because when I get back home I sit in front of the computer 24/7. I am an addict. It is not good for my health. My head is swimming too. It is very hard to keep track of what so many different people think. I wish this case would be solved. Help!

 

[sandraladeda]

I'm not sure how anybody would 'explain' their daughter in the basement. I don't think a fake kidnapping would have been selected in any coverup attempt, though. That's because its an automatic invite to the FBI and everybody knows it. Maybe a hate note or a revenge note, but not a kidnapping note.

so are you saying it was a real kidnapping note?

 

[sandraladeda]

I believe the BPD were in cahoots with the pedophile ring and so avoided targetting them at the beginning of the investigation so evidence that might have been found that incriminated one of the true pedophiles was lost or was given time to be destroyed.

When you say "the BPD", do you mean one member of the department? And if only one member, how did they get the rest of the dept to cooperate with them? Or was it several members? The whole department?

I would say that was one lucky pedophile ring, not only did they find a mother willing to provide her 6 year old daughter for their pleasure, they also found a police department willing to conspire with them....

This is to say that I can only hope you wake up tomorrow, reread your post, and say to yourself "did I really say that I believed tha BPD was in cahoots with a pedophile ring?"

imo

 

[aussiesheila]

When you say "the BPD", do you mean one member of the department? And if only one member, how did they get the rest of the dept to cooperate with them? Or was it several members? The whole department?

I would say that was one lucky pedophile ring, not only did they find a mother willing to provide her 6 year old daughter for their pleasure, they also found a police department willing to conspire with them....

This is to say that I can only hope you wake up tomorrow, reread your post, and say to yourself "did I really say that I believed tha BPD was in cahoots with a pedophile ring?"

imo

It could have been the one who headed the investigation. And I don't think it was a lucky pedophile ring I think it was a well-organised pedophile ring. This seems to be pretty standard practice, to have in place an established connection with the local police dept so that when something unfortunate as this incident takes place the group is protected.

As far as gaining access to victims I imagine it does require quite some considerable time and effort to befriend the family and gain their trust. But apparently pedophiles consider it worth the effort it because this also is one of their common practices.

 

[Brefie]

Well if it is just all to do with money wouldn't it have been better if Patsy HAD clubbed JonBenet to death for John simply to have contacted the police and said "My wife is not responsible for her actions, she has stage 4 ovarian cancer, she is profoundly depressed" and call in some specialist physicians say "Here is some money can you arrange for my wife to be declared legally insane"

No.

Why woud you think that? What's the good of having money if you are going to be labelled a monster? Even an insane one?

Perhaps I am missing the point, but what is better than getting clean away with murder and picking up a few followers along the way?

 

[aussiesheila]

No.

Why woud you think that? What's the good of having money if you are going to be labelled a monster? Even an insane one?

Perhaps I am missing the point, but what is better than getting clean away with murder and picking up a few followers along the way?

This is where the discussion gets a bit pointless. My comment about the money was in reply to someone who said it was Ramsey money that was keeping them out of jail or something like that and I responded saying that I thought they could have spent their money more wisely in other ways.

Since I don't think the Ramseys are guilty anyway, I just think I am going around in circles trying to answer this one. If I thought the Ramseys were guilty I don't think they would have done the coverup people are proposing. If you think the Ramseys are guilty then it's fine with me if you think they did do that coverup.

 

[rashomon]

Well if it is just all to do with money wouldn't it have been better if Patsy HAD clubbed JonBenet to death for John simply to have contacted the police and said "My wife is not responsible for her actions, she has stage 4 ovarian cancer, she is profoundly depressed" and call in some specialist physicians say "Here is some money can you arrange for my wife to be declared legally insane"

Then they wouldn't have had to apply that ghastly ligature around their daughter's neck so tightly that it cut deeply into her skin, concocted that ridiculous ransom note and hidden their daughter's body in that dirty black basement for all those hours.

If their money could have talked they could have dealt with it all very quietly and discreetly. They wouldn't have had to endured police and media intrusion into their lives which they must have surely realised would come with the course you are suggesting they took.

Don't forget that the most important factor for the Ramseys was to save face, and I think their staging was an attempt by them to get away with what they had done. So they took the risk and tried if the police would buy their story.
They don't seem to be media-shy at all, and as long as they could have played an innocent person's role in public without a shadow of suspicion falling on them, I can imagine they would have arranged themselves with such a situation darn well.

 

[rashomon]

Nevertheless, I still find it surprising that people remain so convinced of Ramsey guilt in the absence of any concrete evidence.

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence in that case: the ransom note (and the Ramseys' reaction to that note!), the parents' suspicious behavior in general, their changing elements of the story (from the doors being locked to the contrary, Patsy stating she had read the ransom note first, and then gone to into JB's bedroom, later saying it was the other way round; her contradictory statements re JB's clothing on that night; fibers from PR's red sweater in the paint tray, et., one would get a very long list here.

The Ramseys haven't been brought to justice because

a) the crime scene was completely botched during the initial investigation (the body moved, too many people in the house, etc. so it was difficult to tie specific forensic evidence to a suspect (even Pam Paugh was allowed later to rummage through the house, dressed in a police uniform - incredible -one would think this was a bad police movie, but no, the horror is that this is non-fiction).

and

b) the Boulder DA office was in bed with the Ramsey lawyers, giving the Ramseys kid glove treatment.
Just one typical example: the Ramseys were allowed to give handwriting samples in Pete Hofstrom's private home (to spare them the inconvenience of having to enter a LE building), and while they gave their handwriting examples, Hofstrom actually went out for a walk!!!

One thing is for sure: the Ramsey case is among the most mishandled cases in criminal history. And the Ramseys are profiting from this situation up to the present day.

 

[aussiesheila]

Don't forget that the most important factor for the Ramseys was to save face, and I think their staging was an attempt by them to get away with what they had done. So they took the risk and tried if the police would buy their story.
They don't seem to be media-shy at all, and as long as they could have played an innocent person's role in public without a shadow of suspicion falling on them, I can imagine they would have arranged themselves with such a situation darn well.

Yes but I also think that IF they HAD done the staging they would have created a far more convincing scenario than the sexual abuse/failed kidnapping one. I have posted this somewhere else and you will probably come across it if you haven't already.

BTW I DO think Patsy wrote the note and I agree she is not media-shy and IMO she is VERY concerned with saving face. So I think Patsy WAS therefore involved in the coverup but that it was a very different one that the one I think you are proposing. And I don't think John had anything to do with the coverup.

 

[aussiesheila]

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence in that case: the ransom note (and the Ramseys' reaction to that note!), the parents' suspicious behavior in general, their changing elements of the story (from the doors being locked to the contrary, Patsy stating she had read the ransom note first, and then gone to into JB's bedroom, later saying it was the other way round; her contradictory statements re JB's clothing on that night; fibers from PR's red sweater in the paint tray, et., one would get a very long list here.

The Ramseys haven't been brought to justice because

a) the crime scene was completely botched during the initial investigation (the body moved, too many people in the house, etc. so it was difficult to tie specific forensic evidence to a suspect (even Pam Paugh was allowed later to rummage through the house, dressed in a police uniform - incredible -one would think this was a bad police movie, but no, the horror is that this is non-fiction).

and

b) the Boulder DA office was in bed with the Ramsey lawyers, giving the Ramseys kid glove treatment.
Just one typical example: the Ramseys were allowed to give handwriting samples in Pete Hofstrom's private home (to spare them the inconvenience of having to enter a LE building), and while they gave their handwriting examples, Hofstrom actually went out for a walk!!!

One thing is for sure: the Ramsey case is among the most mishandled cases in criminal history. And the Ramseys are profiting from this situation up to the present day.

I just don't think the circumstantial evidence is that strong and it is very open to different interpretations.

But one thing I will agree with most people on is Patsy's behaviour. I will never argue with anyone who says it was strange because I think Patsy's behaviour is that of a guilty person - guilty of having known about knowing about her daughter's prior sexual abuse (which I believe is a fact), and then once it had led to her death, guilty of helping a pedophile group try to cover up all the sexual abuse and to pass her murder off as a kidnapping.

IMO if John had not found the body hidden in the cellar, the pedophiles original plan would have succeeded, ie JonBenet's body would ultimately have been found in the mountains, hopefully slightly decomposed obliterating all signs of the sexual abuse, and apparently the victim of a kidnapping gone wrong.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

so are you saying it was a real kidnapping note?

It seems more and more likely that the circumstances of JBR's murder matched those of L&L: Murder/sexual assault/extortion. JBR was murdered (there is lots of evidence of this), sexually assaulted (evidence of this too), and her family was extorted (document evidence).

If PR hadn't called 911, it is possible (believe it or not) the perp would have called between 8 and 10. What if JR had 'delivered' the money to the perp and the perp got away? Then, after it was clear the perp lied about JBR, they find her in the basement. IMO this was probably the plan, as it complies with all the major evidence.

So the R's could have been victimized even further, had they obeyed the RN and not called 911. Remember the RN emphasized they not call police, even threatening to behead a child.