WHAT Is The Ramsey/Karr Connection?

[ljwf22]

I was wondering if maybe he worked on their house. I read a report somewhere (I tried to find it I'll look more) from contruction workers that worked on putting in the marble counters in the Ramsey's kitchen fall of 1996. They said they had to have them done by Thanksgiving - Patsy's wishes.
He seemed to lie or embellish the truth through out his entire resume - I wouldn't find it weird he's turn "contruction worker" into remodeler.

The Ramseys Boulder house was a Tudor, the house in Charlevoix, Michigan was a Victorian. Both were extensively remodeled by the Ramseys. In Patsy's Christmas 1996 letter, she mentioned the Charlevoix house might be featured in a Better Homes & Garden magazine in 1997.

 

[julianne]

Originall posted by PagingDrDetect:

"The Ramsey's had no problem tarting her up like a mini Vegas showgirl publically and were even proud of it... how far of a stretch to farm her out for nudie photos or soft ?"

Although I agree that she was definately "tarted up" with the makeup, hairdo's and costumes, I think it is a BIG stretch to go from that to farming her out for nudie photos or soft . I don't agree with the whole beauty pageant thing & making these little girls look like mini-adults, but to some, it is an acceptable part of childhood if you are a girl. Especially with people who live in, or originated from the southern states. There are MANY little girls who are dolled up by their parents for beauty pageants, just like JonBenet was. Just look at some of the videos from the pageants---JonBenet doesn't look any more "tarted up" than the rest of the girls/contestants. As vulgar and offensive it is (to me), it is a very common practice in the beauty pageant circuit. I even seen a mother force her little 4 year old to wear fake teeth!! Sick? Absolutely. But I don't think it makes these parents more apt to be involved in kiddie .

Originally posted by PagingDrDetect:

"I've been hearing for years that there are kiddie photos of JBR on the internet, but no possible way am I going to test that theory out by looking for any. Some of the sources I've heard this from are from people who I'm convinced have actually seen some."

If you have spoken or had dealings with people that convinced you that they have seen firsthand kiddie pornographic photos of JonBenet, I trust you have notified LE in those people's cities, as well as the Boulder DA??? After all, child is not only disgusting, it is ILLEGAL, and with this being such a high profile case, I am sure they were extremely interested in any information you could provide regarding these people. Have you informed them of this? If so, what was their response? If you haven't informed them, WHY NOT??????

Edited to Add: I don't mean to sound confrontational AT ALL. It's just that I have never heard somebody say they were convinced that people they have spoken to have SEEN pics of JonBenet. To me, that is STUNNING, and since these people gave you information that led you to believe that they have viewed these photos, you are obligated to report this, morally & legally.

 

[pinto]

The Ramseys Boulder house was a Tudor, the house in Charlevoix, Michigan was a Victorian. Both were extensively remodeled by the Ramseys. In Patsy's Christmas 1996 letter, she mentioned the Charlevoix house might be featured in a Better Homes & Garden magazine in 1997.

The other thing with this theory is that it would give him access to a key. It doesn't look like there was an intruder, but didn't Patsy say there were over a dozen house keys out unaccounted for, or something like that?

Maybe that was debunked at some time, but it seems like I remember that from one point.

 

[aspidistra]

He didn't need a key if he had been invited to the party on the 23rd with his brother. In his account which was reported in the news, in an interview with a woman he talked to 5 years ago, he was in Colorado on vacation with his brother; invited to the party; met JBR so that when she saw him 2 days later she remembered him and didn't fear him; and he unlatched a window in the basement to let himself in later. He figured it would not be checked every night. He used that window on the 25th to gain access. He knew the layout of the house because he was at the party and presumably looked around. All of it fits if his brother did work for the Ramseys for several years (and perhaps he did some work too, and that is the "restoration" mentioned on the resume). John Ramsey would not necessarily know or remember every worker that tramped thru his houses in all the remodelling.

The Karr family is the key to finding out the facts. They may lie to protect him or themselves, but the brother either worked for Ramsey or he didn't and it can be proved or disproved if they bother to check it out.

I say start with the brother, and for a psychological profile, get busy interviewing the mother, father and ex wives.

 

[narlacat]

<<I've been hearing for years that there are kiddie photos of JBR on the internet, but no possible way am I going to test that theory out by looking for any. Some of the sources I've heard this from are from people who I'm convinced have actually seen some.>>

PagingDrDetect
This is the first I've heard of kiddie pics of JBR getting around the net.

You sound like you know people who are into kiddie .

Like Julianne says, have you reported this??

 

[Maybe So]

Where are you getting this? Got sources? "rumored"?

I believe suspect John Karr's brother lives in Atlanta as per various news articles found on google.

As I stated it is a RUMOR that one or more of the Karrs may have been a handyman for the Ramseys......that is something I only read here at WS.....according to another poster on WS when asked if this was so the brother stated "no comment" and some took that to mean it might be true. So I speculated further that perhaps instead of being a handyman at the Boulder house he could have been a handyman at their Atlanta house...the Ramseys had previously lived in Atlanta and still visited Atlanta from time to time (were headed to Atlanta the day after christmas I believe).

 

[julianne]

I've never heard about pornographic pictures of JonBenet being on the internet either, Narlacat.

And I'm still awaiting your response, PagingDrDetect, on whether or not you reported the information to LE and the Boulder DA.

Does anybody have a link to that interview with the lady who says Karr confessed to her 5 years ago? I heard alot of talk about it, but I never saw the interview. If anyone has the link, please post it. Thanks!

 

[Maybe So]

The Ramseys moved to the Paces Ferry Rd. house after leaving Boulder.

The Ramseys had lived in Atlanta previously as JonBenet was born there in 1990 and I believe they still visited Atlanta from time to time even after moving to Boulder.

 

[narlacat]

I've never heard about pornographic pictures of JonBenet being on the internet either, Narlacat.

And I'm still awaiting your response, PagingDrDetect, on whether or not you reported the information to LE and the Boulder DA.

Does anybody have a link to that interview with the lady who says Karr confessed to her 5 years ago? I heard alot of talk about it, but I never saw the interview. If anyone has the link, please post it. Thanks!

Julianne
I am waiting on his reply too.
Try the 'woman confessed to Karr 5 years ago' thread for the link, it's in there somewhere I think.

 

[13th Juror]

(Quoted from the 1st post on this thread .. )

Or am I just barking up a whole forest full of trees with this and have no idea what I'm talking about?

Yes, "no idea what-so-ever" .. that would definitely be my opinion. Back to the drawing board!

I'm not going to reprint or even address any portion of the sick & perverted scenarios that you've presented here.

Really Sick Stuff, PagingDrDirect!

13th Juror

 

[13th Juror]

I've never heard about pornographic pictures of JonBenet being on the internet either, Narlacat.

And I'm still awaiting your response, PagingDrDetect, on whether or not you reported the information to LE and the Boulder DA.


Does anybody have a link to that interview with the lady who says Karr confessed to her 5 years ago? I heard alot of talk about it, but I never saw the interview. If anyone has the link, please post it. Thanks!

Here's the link, Julianne.

http://www.kron.com/Global/category.asp?C=8554&nav=menu130_1

I'm not buying the "nasty rumor" DrDirect posted here about pornographic "nudie" photographs of JonBenet in the hands of internet pedophiles. And the preposturous notion that the photos may have been or were sanctioned by her parents! Yeah, right!!

As much as I am turned off & disgusted by the whole beauty pagent circuit's exploitation of little girls and the eager parents who allow & encourage the made-up adult look & behavior .. it's a far cry from a loving parent exploiting their child in nudie .

PagingDrDirect - if you have "a verifiable source for your stated rumor" then you should post it rather than spread garbage & innuendo that has "no foundation" or basis in fact.

IMO - if such trash existed .. it certainly would have surfaced at some point in the past 10 years - even if it was only in the rag-sheet tabloids like the Globe or the National Enquirer.


13th Juror

 

[Trino]

http://www.rense.com/ufo6/benet.htm

This is NOT a picture but info about a woman Boulder LE interviewed about parties. I think this is where the rumor originated.

Here's another article, perhaps a better explanation.
http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1999/25arams.html

 

[peace9274]

Does anyone else think it's strange or just a little bit suspicious that John Ramsey is "so angry at all the media" and getting ready to move out of the country? It's not like he's not used to it.

Is he afraid John Karr is going to say something that may point the finger to him?

Sure makes me go Hmmmmmm.

 

[Maybe So]

Does anyone else think it's strange or just a little bit suspicious that John Ramsey is "so angry at all the media" and getting ready to move out of the country? It's not like he's not used to it.

Is he afraid John Karr is going to say something that may point the finger to him?

Sure makes me go Hmmmmmm.

I doubt you ever get used to the media ruining your life and hounding you at the worst momens of your life.

The man's wife died only 2 months ago.

I doubt he is afraid of what a nut job like John Karr may say about him.

I don't think wanting to leave the country indicates any kind of guilt at this point. Anyone would want to escape a media circus that brings back up all the details of your little girl's horrid death and your wife's recent death.....whether innocent or guilty.

He should be interested in seeing justice done but perhaps he is simply sick of all the wild speculation and media rumors...I think I would be.

 

[Maybe So]

Here's the link, Julianne.

http://www.kron.com/Global/category.asp?C=8554&nav=menu130_1

I'm not buying the "nasty rumor" DrDirect posted here about pornographic "nudie" photographs of JonBenet in the hands of internet pedophiles. And the preposturous notion that the photos may have been or were sanctioned by her parents! Yeah, right!!

As much as I am turned off & disgusted by the whole beauty pagent circuit's exploitation of little girls and the eager parents who allow & encourage the made-up adult look & behavior .. it's a far cry from a loving parent exploiting their child in nudie .

PagingDrDirect - if you have "a verifiable source for your stated rumor" then you should post it rather than spread garbage & innuendo that has "no foundation" or basis in fact.

IMO - if such trash existed .. it certainly would have surfaced at some point in the past 10 years - even if it was only in the rag-sheet tabloids like the Globe or the National Enquirer.


13th Juror

I agree with you I don't believe any story that the Ramseys were allowing their child to be molested or used for kiddy .

I believe that forums are for discussion and speculation but speculation should at least have some basis in facts.

 

[julianne]

http://www.rense.com/ufo6/benet.htm

This is NOT a picture but info about a woman Boulder LE interviewed about parties. I think this is where the rumor originated.

Here's another article, perhaps a better explanation.
http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1999/25arams.html

Those links are the SAME exact article, written by the same author on the same day. And IMO, this woman was a nutjob who wanted her 15 minutes of "fame". She was checked out extensively, and no ties to the Ramsey case were ever proven.

 

[blonde1]

This is something that has been baffling me. Ramsey attorneys have said several times that info about Karr was given to LE before he was ever identified as a suspect, yet JR has continually stated that he has no idea who Karr is. Both Karr and the Ramsey attorneys have repeatedly refused to say how the Ramsey's and Karr were connected/how they knew each other or knew of each other.

This blatent inconsistancy has been going unnoticed by everyone in the media. WHY is the media ignoring this issue? I even read in one article where in one paragraph JR says he doesn't know Karr, and in the next paragraph the attorneys say it was the Ramsey's themselves who gave Karr's identity to LE as a possible suspect. HUH???

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4190797
Asked whether he knew the suspect, he told 9News that "to my knowledge, no, I didn't," but stressed that he didn't yet know enough and that the justice system should be allowed to run its course.

Family attorney L. Lin Wood said the Ramseys had previously passed authorities information about Karr, but declined to elaborate.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/16/MNGT1KJSBQ19.DTL
JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, gave police information about Karr before he was identified as a suspect, their attorney said Wednesday. She would not say how the couple knew Karr.

I've also noticed that since JR has been running off at the mouth to anyone who will listen that he has no idea who this guy Karr is, the attorneys have suddenly gone silent in saying that it was the Ramsey's who had originally given his identity to LE. What gives?

Is is possible that Karr did kill JBR, that one or the other or both of the Ramsey's let him into the house that night and be alone with JBR for some reason, and Karr killed her in the course of what ever it was he was there to do (which turned out to be something the Ramsey's had no intention of him doing), and they covered up as best they could to conseal whatever mischief Karr's connection with JBR was?

I'm thinking that perhaps they allowed this guy on many occasions to take nudie photos of JBR or even soft , and on this particular night Karr killed her. I'm wondering if there was the possibility that the Ramsey's and Karr were connected for some time to make a bundle by secretly using JBR as the "star" of kiddie soft (and maybe worse than that), and that the Ramsey's had no idea that he was capable of torturing and killing their daughter until it was too late. But given the fact of what they were involved in with the kiddie , tried to cover-up her death as best they could so they wouldn't be found out that they put their own daughter into the situation that killed her themselves.

Patsy was obsessed about farming JBR out like a commodity with a camera almost constantly on her.

The Ramsey's had no problem tarting her up like a mini Vegas showgirl publically and were even proud of it... how far of a stretch to farm her out for nudie photos or soft ?

They probably knew that she was being molested as so many experts have agreed, and were doing their damndest to cover that up. Potty problems in a child that age is a very frequent sign that they are being molested, and it could be that the Ramsey's suspected that's why she was having that problem, why they were sensative about it, and why they went overboard in trying to cover it up even going to a pediatrician that didn't imagine that molestation could be the cause of JBR's potty problems.

This could also explain JR's inexplicable statement when the body was found ("I'm sorry, I'm so sorry"), Patsy's saying that she felt guilty and why they were both so nervous about taking polygraphs.

JR knew to go directly to the basement room where the body of JBR lay as soon as LE told him to search the house because he knew where the body was. PR didn't budge off the sofa when FW raced up the stairs screaming for someone to call an ambulance which brought both Mrs. White and Mrs. "wife of other neighbor" (the name escapes me at the moment) and the detective racing toward the stairs... PR knew JBR was in the basement and was not at all shocked or surprised as she knew when JR went down to the basement what would be found.

JR could have purposely carried the body upstairs when he found it to make sure that any of his DNA or hair or fibers that may be found on the body could be explained away.

In an interview with Barbara Walters, PR said that when JBR was laid on the floor under the Christmas tree she lay down beside her and pressed her own face the JRB's... thereby explaining away any of her DNA or hair or fibers found on the body. PR also says in the interview that JR carried the body upstairs and placed it under the tree, but everyone else says that he placed the body in the foyer, and the detective picked it up and placed it near the tree.

It seems evident that a cover up involving JBR's body only attempted to cover up any evidence of molestation. Apparently, there is evidence that shows JBR's "southern region" was cleaned up, and what about those giant panties? There seemed to be a lot of dressing and undressing going on involving JBR's body, but no attempt to cover up how she was killed.

I've been hearing for years that there are kiddie photos of JBR on the internet, but no possible way am I going to test that theory out by looking for any. Some of the sources I've heard this from are from people who I'm convinced have actually seen some.

Clearly, the DA did not want the Ramsey's implicated in this case, but I don't think he would have been willing to do that if one or both of them murdered JBR... I think he was trying to cover up it getting out publically that the Ramsey's were pimping out their daughter for kiddie , and was therefore willing to thwart the investigation and botch the grand jury proceedings. He was willing to let the killer off in order to help the Ramsey's cover up the kiddie connection. He knew that letting Karr off wouldn't let a killer loose in his jurisdiction because Karr lived in Alabama... let Alabama have him.

A kiddie connection could be that "secret" info that "only the killer would know"... except JR would also know. I think that's why he is blabbing to all and sundry that he has no idea who Karr is. This way, if Karr implicates him about the kiddie , he can claim he knew nothing and lay all the blame on his conveniently dead wife. I find it significant that the investigation for Karr came only at the time of Patsy's death... now JR can lay the blame on someone who lived in the house was related to JBR and was there at the time of the murder who is no longer able to defend herself. Tracey, who is clearly a Ramsey fan, was corresponding with Karr for 4 years but only alerts police around the time of PR's death. Could JR been convincing him to wait before alerting the police until he knew that Patsy was about to die so he could have a scapegoat that couldn't defend herself?

Or am I just barking up a whole forest full of trees with this and have no idea what I'm talking about?

This article in crimelibrary has a similar take:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/singular/index_1.html And I am leaning toward this idea.
Or, maybe Karr has some hard copy photos in his possession that weren't circulated on the internet -- maybe he was part of the ped ring and he DID see what happened -- maybe he was the one (or one of a couple people) chosen by the photographer or pedophile group to return the body to the house.

 

[2luvmy]

Couldn't there be pronagraphic pictures of JonBenet out there? Seriously, with all the photo imaging software out here and JB being in the public eye with the pageants, there could quite possbily be photos out there that pedos have doctored even if the Ramseys didn't have anything to do with child . I can see a pedo coming across something like this and being obsessed with JB.

 

[julianne]

This article in crimelibrary has a similar take:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/singular/index_1.html And I am leaning toward this idea.
Or, maybe Karr has some hard copy photos in his possession that weren't circulated on the internet -- maybe he was part of the ped ring and he DID see what happened -- maybe he was the one (or one of a couple people) chosen by the photographer or pedophile group to return the body to the house.

I still do not buy the the whole kiddie thing. There is absolutely nothing in the Ramsey's background or history that even alludes to such a thing. Nothing. If anyone disagrees, I would be more than willing to change to my mind IF anyone can produce one iota of something to tie this in to . I don't believe that can be done, because it hasn't been able to be done in 10 years.

The more I think about it, the more horrified I am at the villification these people have gone through. I'll take that back IF they are ever proven to be guilty, however, as I said before, it hasn't been able to be proved in 10 years. That's not for a lack of people WANTING them to be proven guilty...that's for sure.

Edited to Add: You have to agree that IF there were pics of JonBenet on the internet, they most certainly wouldv'e been out in the public eye by now.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Apology if some of this has been posted...

I was attempting to narrow in on the time and place, when JMKarr might have first seen JBR. As the Ramseys' and Karr past addresses might suggest, it looks like was in 1991. If JMKarr is involved in this homicide (not yet convinced that he is), it would be my guess that, that Karr possibly crossed paths with the baby/toddler JBR, very early on.

Conyers, GA - 1965 (approx.) to 1977 (approx.)
Karr grew up, and lived her until the age of 12, when he went to live with grand parents in Hamilton, Alabama.

Hamilton, Alabama - 1977 (approx)[/B]
Living with grandparents. Graduated from Hamilton High School in 1984.

City Unknown, presumed to be Hamilton, AL - 1984
Karr (age 19) married Quientana Shotts (age 14)

***Gwinnett County - 1989 ***
Karr (age 24) married Lara Knutson (age 16)
Note: This is where I see the Ramseys and Karr as being geographically close to one another. Ramsey's residence in the town of Dunwoody, appears to be very close to the Gwinnett area. You can do a yahoo map search for Sandy Springs,GA, and get pretty close to these two areas.

Note: Their twins girls, Angel and Innocence, died in 1989. New Cooper Cemetary is referenced in reports, and is located outside Hamilton, Alabama.

Dunwoody, Georgia - 1990
JBR is born, on August 6, 1990, in Northside Hospital, Atlanta Georgia.
Dunwoody Georgia appears to be in DeKalb County. Reports have stated that this is approx. 30 miles north east of Conyers (where Karr grew up). However, it may be more significant, that this appears to be very close to Gwinnett County, and perhaps where the PR and newborn JBR crossed paths with JMKarr.

Boulder Colorado - 1991
The Ramseys moved to Colorado.

Hamilton, Alabama - "mid 90's (according to Karr's brother)
Karr was reported to have been a sub teacher at Hamilton school, and was fired after only 15 days. It is not clear, if the Marion County court documents listed below, are a report of this same incident.

Marion County, Alabama - September 1996
An Alabama school district dismissed Karr from his job as a sub teacher. Reference: court Documents, reporting statements by Marion County School District, and Lara Knutson's statements.
Note: Reports are not quite clear, about Karr's residence after this firing. It is not clear if he moved again.

Lake Charlevoix, Michigan - Years unknown
The Ramsey's had a lake front home, in this city. I am not clear during what interval of time, they had this home. They probably contined to use it with regularity, as JonBennet won the "Little Miss Charlevoix Michigan" pageant.
Some people have posted that they believe JMKarr may have worked at this house. If you find any address confirmation, please post.


Boulder Colorado - December 26, 1996
JBR's homicide.


Feel free to correct or amend this sketch. If anyone is aware of an Atlanta area pagent in which JBR competed or won, that would be significant.