What makes you think Terri Horman is innocent?

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All the speculation about polygraphs. I would fail a polygraph in a situation like this. I know I would because I would feel so guilty and nervous, especially if I knew people thought I had done it. I think I'd start second guessing myself like crazy and wondering if I had split personality or something. I feel bad the way people judge TH's behavior at the news conference because I'd be insecure and probably read like a sociopath.
 
:) :) I just want to say THANK YOU to those who think outside the bun.... :) :) :) :) :)

Although you may feel like :shocked2:... just know that there are those who support you.. and hopefully me too... :p :p
Thanks again... :)
 
What are the PCs for, if not to inform the public? If they want to talk to Terri, they can send messages through their attorneys. IMO, they need to reveal at least ONE piece of concrete evidence against Terri, and a LDT isn't valid.

LE could state exactly what the LS said/did to give "probable cause"--I don't see there being anything to lose by revealing that, as the "sting" was botched and everyone knows about it. I actually feel like LE *not* giving the information about the LS is more revealing--if their "info" is as sparse as Kaine's was on the RO, there is NOTHING. MOO
 
What are the PCs for, if not to inform the public? If they want to talk to Terri, they can send messages through their attorneys. IMO, they need to reveal at least ONE piece of concrete evidence against Terri, and a LDT isn't valid.

LE could state exactly what the LS said/did to give "probable cause"--I don't see there being anything to lose by revealing that, as the "sting" was botched and everyone knows about it. I actually feel like LE *not* giving the information about the LS is more revealing--if their "info" is as sparse as Kaine's was on the RO, there is NOTHING. MOO

Hmm. There is that. There is also the fact that they stated that LE had nothing to do with their PC. I think that speaks to frustration at what they cannot say. What they have been advised not to say.
MOO
 
I wonder if there is a conflict of interest on Tony's part. (the stepfather of Kyron).. Some bullying between LE...
 
I find it a bit disingenuous for DY and KH to state that Terri isn't cooperating because she's not confessing.
Link?

With regard to the presser and Terri failing the polygraphs. Well, at the time DY, TY, and KH took the polygraphs, the focus wasn't on them.
Link?

We now know that LE was zeroed in on TH from the beginning.
Link?

Also, an earlier leak reported by news media, stated that Terri showed deceptive on "a key answer," and I read that as her being deceptive about one key answer. Would it change everyone's mind if the answer was about her being on Suavie Island? What if she tested as being truthful in regard to whether or not she abducted Kyron, harmed him, knows where he is or if he is deceased?
But the quote was NOT that she had been deceptive on ONE key answer. Also, no, it wouldn't matter if she were truthful about having harmed him, etc., if she were untruthful about her whereabouts on June 4. She could have handed Kyron off to someone else and not "know" if he were harmed, etc...or, she could just be a sociopath, you know, and pass all of the answers she were guilty on except for one where she slipped up a little.

DY and KH can assert that she failed her polygraph even if she only failed one answer.
Link?

Or maybe she's lying about where she was and she's afraid to fess up?
WHY???!!! WHAT ON EARTH is more important than finding out where Kyron is? So she was on Sauvie buying crack? Cheating? Hiring illegal immigrants as babysitters??? What on EARTH could be so embarrassing that after a FREAKING MONTH she'd be so worried about telling the truth about if it would help advance the investigation? I just cannot wrap my mind around this. I don't care WHAT I had done...danced naked through a crack infested bordello while selling state secrets...NOTHING would be so embarrassing/illegal/immoral that it would stop me from telling the truth about my whereabouts when it came to finding an innocent child...nothing!

Who knows. I have no doubt LE leaked that information, and if it's true that she only showed deceptive on one question, I find that strange. If she's responsible for Kyron's disappearance or if she knows who is, it stands to reason that she would've shown up as deceptive on multiple questions.
I doubt she only showed up deceptive on one as the article quoted didn't state that, but...Susan Smith only showed up deceptive on one, FWIW... but that one answer was enough to give LE an idea how to question her.
 
I think she may be innocent. During the sting operation, she called 911- I think twice from what I've read by you excellent sleuthers.

Begin with this premise: the landscaper is lying for whatever reason. He shows up at her house and starts his thing. If she's innocent, she'd want LE to know immediately as he might be involved with Kyron's disappearance.

How would she act if she was guilty but thought she was being set up? A bit differently, maybe? What I really WANT is to hear the 911 calls.

Are the 911 tapes available? I think that would give a lot of insight. I want to hear what she said/how she acted.

It just doesn't make sense to me that she would care for Kyron this long, without incident, and suddenly kill him or hand him off.

Even Kyron's mother said during the press conference that they were blindsided by the whole thing (although she has been given info that we surely don't know about, and she appears to be convinced Terri is involved). She was very impressive during the last press conference, and very believable.

I just don't know what to think, but I am not yet convinced it was Terri.
 
Hmm. There is that. There is also the fact that they stated that LE had nothing to do with their PC. I think that speaks to frustration at what they cannot say. What they have been advised not to say.
MOO

What might they be holding back, though? LE has, IMHO, leaked most of what there is to know. This is where my reasoning is a bit circular. If there was overwhelming evidence against Terri, she would be in jail. She is not in jail. If they had overwhelming evidence against her, why would LE tell KH that this is going to be a marathon not a sprint? Overwhelming evidence = sprint, lack of overwhelming evidence = marathon, IMHO.

And this is where I see circular reasoning between LE, DY, TY and KH.

LE, DY, TY, and KH have repeatedly stated there is no evidence that Kyron is deceased. This tells me that there is no evidence of a murder. This means LE has no evidence against Terri that implicates her in a murder.

We drop to the lesser charge of Terri abducting Kyron. By their own admission, LE interviewed hundreds of witnesses, including parents and children, in the days after Kyron went missing. If there had been a smoking gun such as a witness who saw Terri shuffling an incapacitated Kyron into the truck or otherwise leaving with him, they would've found this witness by now. When LE sent out the questionnaire after they'd interviewed hundreds of witnesses, this told me that they had no evidence Terri left with Kyron that day. If LE had witnesses attesting to the fact that Terri left with Kyron the day he went missing, the questionnaire would've been unnecessary. And let's not forget that the questionnaire went out to the hundreds of people who had already been interviewed. If there was a witness or witnesses who saw Terri leaving with Kyron, I truly believe we would know it by now.

The cell phone pings. Again, I am not an expert on cell phone pings, but it's my understanding that they give a range. Terri was, admittedly, out and about that day, and so is it possible her cell phone pinged off a tower as she was running errands? FWIW, I believe the cell phone ping information is accurate insofar as it places her somewhere she says she was not, and I believe this is key in DY, TY, KH, and LE's assertion that she is lying.

The failed polygraphs. Eh, on polygraphs, but we'll go with she failed, as reported, "a key answer." That indicates one answer, which is bizarre to me; it is nearly unfathomable to me, if she did this alone or with an accomplice, that she could only fail one answer if the report of her failing "a key answer" is true, and I believe the report is accurate. Only LE, TY, DY, and KH would know whether or not she failed, and so whoever leaked the information was privy to the information. I don't believe they'd make it look better for her. If she failed the entire polygraph, or multiple answers, I believe the leaked information would reflect that failure, e.g. "She failed multiple questions with regard to key areas of the investigation."

So, IMHO, what LE have is the cell phone pings and the failed polygraph, LE's focus, and DY's suspicion. The pings and polygraph being the only evidence LE have makes sense to me -- polygraphs aren't admissible, and cell phone ping information isn't enough. If there was anything solid, Terri would be in jail, IMHO, and if there was anything else, LE would've leaked it by now, IMHO. Everything else -- the pings, the polygraph, and the mfh plot have been leaked, the latter despite everything being sealed.
 
IF they don't have anything that definitely incriminates TMH...

IF Kyron is deceased...

IF LE doesn't recover his body somehow...

Then it will definitely be a marathon, because with cases like Steven Staynor, Jaycee Dugard, Elizabeth Smart and Shawn Hornbeck out there, it will take a long time before a jury will believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Kyron is dead.

I'm beginning to fear this will go on a long, long time.
 
Rosiebean, wanted to add, thank you for the laugh in this horrible situation. Your comment "I don't care WHAT I had done...danced naked through a crack infested bordello while selling state secrets" cracked me up.
 
I'm gonna say this and run...

The fact that everyone else seems so darn certain she is guilty makes me start to think she might not be. Or that at least some of us should play the Loyal Opposition.


:couch:
 
The failed polygraphs. Eh, on polygraphs, but we'll go with she failed, as reported, "a key answer." That indicates one answer, which is bizarre to me; it is nearly unfathomable to me, if she did this alone or with an accomplice, that she could only fail one answer if the report of her failing "a key answer" is true, and I believe the report is accurate. Only LE, TY, DY, and KH would know whether or not she failed, and so whoever leaked the information was privy to the information. I don't believe they'd make it look better for her. If she failed the entire polygraph, or multiple answers, I believe the leaked information would reflect that failure, e.g. "She failed multiple questions with regard to key areas of the investigation."
"A" does not equal "one". Likewise, her own husband said she failed two polys, and, IMO, he'd have sounded like an idiot if he'd said, "she failed multiple questions.." etc. IMO, saying she failed both polys indicates she failed more than one question.

Even so, I keep going back to Susan Smith...who failed ONE question on her poly.

So, IMHO, what LE have is the cell phone pings and the failed polygraph, LE's focus, and DY's suspicion. The pings and polygraph being the only evidence LE have makes sense to me -- polygraphs aren't admissible, and cell phone ping information isn't enough. If there was anything solid, Terri would be in jail, IMHO, and if there was anything else, LE would've leaked it by now, IMHO. Everything else -- the pings, the polygraph, and the mfh plot have been leaked, the latter despite everything being sealed.
I agree that the pings and poly aren't enough for an arrest, although pings/cell phone triangulation can give a fairly tight radius of a person's whereabouts...and IMO, for LE to focus on the pings so heavily, it would mean that they were in a place far away from where she claimed to have gone that morning. I would be surprised though, very surprised, if that was ALL that they had. This LE team has played things very tight...and I'm an not convinced (not by a long shot at all) that all leaks have come from them. Certainly, in the public domain, there isn't enough to indicate TH's guilt. But that does not mean that LE has nothing on her...IMO.
 
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What might they be holding back, though? LE has, IMHO, leaked most of what there is to know. This is where my reasoning is a bit circular. If there was overwhelming evidence against Terri, she would be in jail. She is not in jail. If they had overwhelming evidence against her, why would LE tell KH that this is going to be a marathon not a sprint? Overwhelming evidence = sprint, lack of overwhelming evidence = marathon, IMHO.
That may very well be the case. I am of the opinion at this point that there is a reason they are handling TH the way they are. What they do have is not quite solid enough. You know the old adage, give em enough rope and they will hang themself
And this is where I see circular reasoning between LE, DY, TY and KH.

LE, DY, TY, and KH have repeatedly stated there is no evidence that Kyron is deceased. This tells me that there is no evidence of a murder. This means LE has no evidence against Terri that implicates her in a murder.There could very well be evidence that "something happened" but they need to keep TH in the spotlight, or maybe are waiting for her to make a move that will lead them to Kyron. We all have seen where someone sitting in jail does not always make them talk.

We drop to the lesser charge of Terri abducting Kyron. By their own admission, LE interviewed hundreds of witnesses, including parents and children, in the days after Kyron went missing. If there had been a smoking gun such as a witness who saw Terri shuffling an incapacitated Kyron into the truck or otherwise leaving with him, they would've found this witness by now. When LE sent out the questionnaire after they'd interviewed hundreds of witnesses, this told me that they had no evidence Terri left with Kyron that day. If LE had witnesses attesting to the fact that Terri left with Kyron the day he went missing, the questionnaire would've been unnecessary. And let's not forget that the questionnaire went out to the hundreds of people who had already been interviewed. If there was a witness or witnesses who saw Terri leaving with Kyron, I truly believe we would know it by now.
Did the second questionnaire not focus on TH? I may not recall that correctly
The cell phone pings. Again, I am not an expert on cell phone pings, but it's my understanding that they give a range. Terri was, admittedly, out and about that day, and so is it possible her cell phone pinged off a tower as she was running errands? FWIW, I believe the cell phone ping information is accurate insofar as it places her somewhere she says she was not, and I believe this is key in DY, TY, KH, and LE's assertion that she is lying.
This to me,says that she is not being truthful. If she is not being straight forward about that, it calls in to question what else is she not being truthful about

The failed polygraphs. Eh, on polygraphs, but we'll go with she failed, as reported, "a key answer." That indicates one answer, which is bizarre to me; it is nearly unfathomable to me, if she did this alone or with an accomplice, that she could only fail one answer if the report of her failing "a key answer" is true, and I believe the report is accurate. Only LE, TY, DY, and KH would know whether or not she failed, and so whoever leaked the information was privy to the information. I don't believe they'd make it look better for her. If she failed the entire polygraph, or multiple answers, I believe the leaked information would reflect that failure, e.g. "She failed multiple questions with regard to key areas of the investigation." This does make me ponder the whole LDT issue. I would love to have clarification on THAT issue but I do not think we are going to get it right now

So, IMHO, what LE have is the cell phone pings and the failed polygraph, LE's focus, and DY's suspicion. The pings and polygraph being the only evidence LE have makes sense to me -- polygraphs aren't admissible, and cell phone ping information isn't enough. If there was anything solid, Terri would be in jail, IMHO, and if there was anything else, LE would've leaked it by now, IMHO. Everything else -- the pings, the polygraph, and the mfh plot have been leaked, the latter despite everything being sealed.Then again they maybe letting stuff slowly trickle out to make TH squirm. She may get paranoid as to "what do they know?" and act on that, giving them more answers.
Words in red respectfully added by me. I wanted to address certain parts because it was well though out and made me consider some things. I hope you do not mind.
 
I think there actually two questions - one is whether TH is innocent, and the other being whether she harmed Kyron.

Really, it's hard to imagine that someone else took the child. If Kyron was taken from the school, it just about had to be by somebody he knew, because if someone had taken him by force, chances are he would have put up enough of a fight that someone would have realized there was a problem. Also, kids today are generally smart enough to know not to go willingly with a stranger, so, as I said, logically it was someone he knew.

Yes, it could have been another student/school employee/classmates parent, etc. However, to be brutally honest, most of those scenarios either involve another kid playing a nasty trick, or a pedophile - and either way, something probably would have turned up by now, either a body or at least some suspicions in a background check.

So that leaves people Kyron was close to - family. Dad was at work, and I'm sure the police would have checked to see where the bio-mom and step-dad were and ensured they weren't involved.

That brings us down to TH as the most likely possibility for taking him.

However - that doesn't mean she hurt him.

To me, it seems like if a step-parent is going to resent a child put into their care, they're more likely to do it when the child is young and requires constant care and attention. Kyron was in school full time, and to be honest, TH really didn't have to deal with him very much if she didn't want to.

Further, IF TRUE, the landscaper/murder plot would seem to indicate she's not capable of "do it yourself" murder - and wouldn't most people have more trouble killing a 7 yr old that they had essentially raised as opposed to a husband that they hated?

Personally, I think there's a good chance she has Kyron stashed somewhere with someone for "safekeeping". Either she felt he was in danger at home, or she simply sensed that there was a divorce looming and wanted to keep the child she had raised despite knowing she had no legal custody rights to him.

I suspect that's why she hasn't been arrested - if the police believed she had killed Kyron, there would be no reason not to arrest her - but if they believe he's alive and well, they're probably thinking that she will eventually go to him (and I'm sure they have a tail on her.)
 
I'm gonna say this and run...

The fact that everyone else seems so darn certain she is guilty makes me start to think she might not be. Or that at least some of us should play the Loyal Opposition.


:couch:
Personally, I have no idea if she's guilty. I believe that LE is looking at her as their main POI, which makes me think they have legitimate reason to do so beyond even what is in the media. Until I have real facts, I'm not going to assert the TH is guilty...but given LE's interest in her (due to, among potential other things, her apparent inability to account for her movements on the morning of June 4) nor am I going to assert that she's innocent.
 
I think there actually two questions - one is whether TH is innocent, and the other being whether she harmed Kyron.

Really, it's hard to imagine that someone else took the child. If Kyron was taken from the school, it just about had to be by somebody he knew, because if someone had taken him by force, chances are he would have put up enough of a fight that someone would have realized there was a problem. Also, kids today are generally smart enough to know not to go willingly with a stranger, so, as I said, logically it was someone he knew.

Yes, it could have been another student/school employee/classmates parent, etc. However, to be brutally honest, most of those scenarios either involve another kid playing a nasty trick, or a pedophile - and either way, something probably would have turned up by now, either a body or at least some suspicions in a background check.

So that leaves people Kyron was close to - family. Dad was at work, and I'm sure the police would have checked to see where the bio-mom and step-dad were and ensured they weren't involved.

That brings us down to TH as the most likely possibility for taking him.

However - that doesn't mean she hurt him.

To me, it seems like if a step-parent is going to resent a child put into their care, they're more likely to do it when the child is young and requires constant care and attention. Kyron was in school full time, and to be honest, TH really didn't have to deal with him very much if she didn't want to.

Further, IF TRUE, the landscaper/murder plot would seem to indicate she's not capable of "do it yourself" murder - and wouldn't most people have more trouble killing a 7 yr old that they had essentially raised as opposed to a husband that they hated?

Personally, I think there's a good chance she has Kyron stashed somewhere with someone for "safekeeping". Either she felt he was in danger at home, or she simply sensed that there was a divorce looming and wanted to keep the child she had raised despite knowing she had no legal custody rights to him.

I suspect that's why she hasn't been arrested - if the police believed she had killed Kyron, there would be no reason not to arrest her - but if they believe he's alive and well, they're probably thinking that she will eventually go to him (and I'm sure they have a tail on her.)
BBM

I hadn't considered this possibility... what IF she stashed Kyron somewhere and had planned to take off with the baby later that day but Kaine came home before she would take off?
 
Link?

Link?

Link?

But the quote was NOT that she had been deceptive on ONE key answer. Also, no, it wouldn't matter if she were truthful about having harmed him, etc., if she were untruthful about her whereabouts on June 4. She could have handed Kyron off to someone else and not "know" if he were harmed, etc...or, she could just be a sociopath, you know, and pass all of the answers she were guilty on except for one where she slipped up a little.

Link?

WHY???!!! WHAT ON EARTH is more important than finding out where Kyron is? So she was on Sauvie buying crack? Cheating? Hiring illegal immigrants as babysitters??? What on EARTH could be so embarrassing that after a FREAKING MONTH she'd be so worried about telling the truth about if it would help advance the investigation? I just cannot wrap my mind around this. I don't care WHAT I had done...danced naked through a crack infested bordello while selling state secrets...NOTHING would be so embarrassing/illegal/immoral that it would stop me from telling the truth about my whereabouts when it came to finding an innocent child...nothing!

I doubt she only showed up deceptive on one as the article quoted didn't state that, but...Susan Smith only showed up deceptive on one, FWIW... but that one answer was enough to give LE an idea how to question her.

With regard to the links, I'll say the the presser today provided me with some of the information. When Desiree was asked how Terri is not cooperating, she answered because she [Terri] isn't being truthful. LE has said Terri is being cooperative, so there is some disparity there. Obviously Terri submitted to interrogations, searches, and two polygraphs. In the context Desiree was speaking, I interpret "not being truthful" as "not confessing to her role in Kyron's disappearance."

With regard to the focus being on Terri from the beginning. Multiple news sources and even Desiree, again in the press conference today, said they suspected Terri from the beginning. It's fairly obvious, to me anyway, that Terri has been at the center of this investigation from the beginning.

There is no link for DY and KH's conclusions about the polygraphs. That's my supposition.

About the "key answer" --

Terri Horman has taken two polygraph tests, after authorities said a key answer on the first exam found her deceptive.

Source: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_wore_wire_asked_ter.html

I do agree with you, though, that if a child was missing, I would drag every last skeleton out of my closet and put them on parade. Maybe it's not about where she was! I don't know. Maybe she's not lying. Maybe she's lying about everything. I find the "a key answer" odd, though. LE doesn't want to paint Terri in a positive light. They are leaking this information to sway public opinion and put pressure on her. I maintain that if she'd shown deceptive on multiple answers, the wording in the article (re: the leaked information) would reflect multiple deceptions.
 
:) :) I just want to say THANK YOU to those who think outside the bun.... :) :) :) :) :)

Although you may feel like :shocked2:... just know that there are those who support you.. and hopefully me too... :p :p
Thanks again... :)

THANK YOU for saying this FroginTtown! It's truly good to know there is support here for alternative ideas & support for those who choose to voice what may be viewed as dissenting opinions or as "defense of TH". It's also good to know that whatever our opinions may be, that all opinions are respected.

I must admit, in the beginning of this case, I was not suspicious of TH at all.

As time went on & I read of rumors of cell phone pings on Sauvie Island, a tiny seed of doubt of TH sprouted, and when the questionnaire was released with her photos on it, & the white truck, and then suddenly KH was moving out of the house with baby K & an RO was issued, that seed of doubt burgeoned to full-grown suspicion.

Then lawnmower man turned up with his outlandish MFH claims & the attempted sting went down. It was a turning point for me. I know that event sealed the deal for many folks in terms of convincing them of TH's involvement in K's disappearance, but, strangely enough, it had the opposite effect on me.

I began to step back & question, because I realized I was basing my suspicion on circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and unsubstantiated rumors - not factual, empirical, hard core evidence.

It has taught me a lesson.

At this point, I don't know if TH is innocent or guilty in this tragic, heart wrenching case. I have no qualms about waiting for reliable evidence, regardless of whatever the more mainstream stance or opinion might be. IMO, there's not a darn thing wrong with being sure. I just want to be sure that I'm sure - and to know without a doubt why I'm sure.

As far as I'm concerned, the only true innocent in this case is little Kyron.

My strongest wish for him is that he is found alive & unharmed, and if not, I pray he didn't suffer.
 
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