What The Hell Is Going On Here??????????

[Ames]

Rash, I'm glad you brought this up.

It seems to be a domestic homicide. It was either accidental if it was done in a rage without intent to kill or it was purposeful. As you, I don't see it as an accident, but an accidental result.

Regardless, why not call 911? I can think of reasons for not doing so such as thinking JonBenet would either die anyway or be a vegetable and the killer didn't want to be accused of killing JonBenet. But at the point the decision was made not to call 911, does it become voluntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, second degree murder????

Then, if she were strangled as a part of the staging while alive, yet the assailant thought she was dead when the ligature was applied, that further clouds things. Is it involuntary manslaughter?

But what if the strangulation evidence comes from two separate actions: jerking and twisting a turtleneck collar or other collar and dragging or shoving JonBenet around in order to get her to cooperate (manual strangulation that doesn't result in complete asphyxiation), followed by the event that injured her head, then followed by staging that left a second set of evidence for ligature strangulation.

Another possibility is the same as sequence as above but the ligature strangulation being a "mercy killing" instead of staging.

I think these conundrums are a part of the reason the DA's office didn't want to prosecute. According to my interpretations of Hunter's remarks (televised and on You Tube video) a case wasn't put together that could show which parent did what and exactly what they did. There are so many possibilites.

I also must say Hunter was a big part of the problem that the investigation didn't go in the right direction at times and I fault him for not assisting the BPD, or so it seems. However, why didn't the BPD go to a judge and request warrants when Hunter refused to do so or did they and a judge refused to?

So many unanswered questions.

What if it served BOTH purposes....for staging, AND to keep their butts out of jail.

 

[Solace]

What if it served BOTH purposes....for staging, AND to keep their butts out of jail.

I think it was for staging and to keep their "butts" out of jail.

And it worked with the GJ. Didn't it come out that one of the jurists said, no parent would do this.

 

[daffodil]

daffodil,
Hey, I didn't!! Right after you posted it I wrote "Good post, daffodil".:blowkiss:

So you did Squishy,thank you!!! :blowkiss:

 

[Squishified]

So you did Squishy,thank you!!! :blowkiss:

I thought it was such a good post that I had nothing to add to it.

 

[Ames]

I think it was for staging and to keep their "butts" out of jail.

And it worked with the GJ. Didn't it come out that one of the jurists said, no parent would do this.

Yep, that is what one of the GJ jurist said. Guess that jurist doesn't read or watch the news....stuff like that happens all the time. Did you hear about the dad that raped his OWN DAUGHTER, videotaped it, and then put it on the internet??? Or the mom that put her baby in the microwave and TURNED IT ON...killing the baby? Or the step father that picked up his young stepson by the feet, and repeatedly swung him into the wall. Enough, that he had plaster embedded in his head (all because he fell asleep on his potty...they made him sit there, until he went potty, while THEY slept, the step father became enraged when he woke up to find the boy asleep on the potty)?....I cried when I read that as he was dying, he reached up for his mother (YEAH, she was there too...and LET IT HAPPEN). Yeah, there are ALOT of crazy people in this ole world...nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[BOESP]

I think it was for staging and to keep their "butts" out of jail.

And it worked with the GJ. Didn't it come out that one of the jurists said, no parent would do this.

I wish they'd release the transcripts from the GJ's findings. For all we know, the GJ was not even asked whether or not to return a true bill or whatever they call it in Colorado. Maybe they were just asked to review the evidence and give a finding on the evidence that was presented to them (similar to Judge Carnes's finding in the libel case).

 

[Nuisanceposter]

<snip>

I can only conclude if all the above is true, JonBenet wet the bed that night. Of course, Burke says JonBenet was awake and walked up the stairs to bed along with Patsy.

Who is lying? :waitasec:

I've thought about this long and hard myself. Burke had an awful lot of detail about JonBenet being awake when his parents said she was asleep that night. He said JB had fallen alseep in the car, but woke up when they stopped, and helped carry gifts in the home of friends (I'm thinking it was the Walkers.) Then he said that she was still awake when they got home, and walked in the house and up the spiral staircase ahead of their mother to her room.

Either he actually saw all of that happen, and is recalling it correctly, or he hasn't correctly recalled it, with his imagination filling in what his memory lost, and he has this much detail because he thinks he saw it. Thomas watched the videotaped interview and said he thought Burke was confused, and not having seen the videotape, I only have Thomas's impression to go on...but Thomas also did not clarify exactly what he thought Burke was confused about. I almost get the impression he meant he thought Burke was confused in general, and it came across in the interview.

I also believe it's possible that Burke actually saw this and is remembering it accurately, and that his parents never talked to him about that night and he may not have been aware that he was contradicting them. John and Patsy certainly said they didn't feel the need to bother Burke much with the nasty business of his baby sister's murder in DOI. It was like they felt the less they had to discuss it, the better - "let's not bother Burke with something so unpleasant, la la la, let's go sailing and paint a picture and run for office, just like nothing ever happened. We don't want him to feel sad...or scared. Yeah, scared, that's right...we don't talk to Burke about the murder because he might get scared of the killer on the loose. That sounds good! People will believe that, even though we don't act like we're afraid of this killer at all. We don't talk to Burke about the murder because he might get scared."

Didn't police ever talk to the Walkers (or was it the Stines?) and ascertain whether Burke's account of JonBenet helping carry gifts from the car at a time when J&P would have us believe she was asleep was correct or not? Or was this another instance where the BPD was stonewalled by the DA's office and couldn't do their job properly? I also question why Thomas states they had to get warrants from Hunter (who wouldn't give them) and couldn't go around him to someone else who would issue the necessary warrants. I almost suspect no one would go over Hunter's head and help BPD against the Rs, and that the good ol boy network is that tight, with JR thick in it, knowing the right people when the time to call in favors popped up.

I don't think JonBenet ever made it to bed that night, or if she did, she wasn't in bed very long before she left it again, either by choice or by force. Thomas thinks she was put to bed, and I believe he would have information about that I don't, but the bed does not look slept in, and I doubt that white blanket was on her bed that night. The pillow at the foot of the bed is consistent with JB propping herself up to watch tv - my youngest does this every night himself.

 

[daffodil]

It is a possibility it happened that way Daffodil. What concerns me is the red turtleneck and the fact that it is in the bathroom. Patsy originally said that JonBenet had the turtleneck on that night and then she changed to say it was the white gap top. The turtleneck is found rolled up on the floor of the bathroom. So I believe that it was worn at some point because in order for it to be in a "ball", it would have to be pulled over someone's head or taken off by the person wearing it and then thrown. If it had not been worn, it would more than likely not be in a ball. It could have been done in the morning, but I am a Thomas theorist believer and he seems to be intent on the red turtleneck. He never goes on about it in his book - I would like to know if it were urine soaked.

What interests me is why you changed your mind and now believe Patsy did it. Thanks Dafodil.

Hi Solace,

I agree the red top was worn by JonBenet when she went to bed and it became wet.I still feel the bedroom shows more signs of a struggle than the bathroom (the hair ties and curtain tieback) and I just bet the beds in JBs room were of solid wood and would certainly cause a good whack to the head especially if JB was being swung round.

I came to believe that JR and PR were guilty by a combination of things-the handwriting analysis is irrefutable IMO especially certain letters.Also looking at it logically it just couldnt have been anyone else,no obvious signs of a break in,no forensic evidence of an intruder,the fibers etc etc.Its like a jigsaw-each piece on its own means nothing but put together and you can see the bigger picture.I dont believe JB was being sexually abused but douched and I do believe she was a very much loved little girl.

 

[BOESP]

... Yeah, there are ALOT of crazy people in this ole world...nothing surprises me anymore.

But Ames, the rich and beautiful are above all that, doncha know.

 

[Ames]

I've thought about this long and hard myself. Burke had an awful lot of detail about that night. He said JB had fallen alseep in the car, but woke up when they stopped, and helped carry gifts in the home of friends (I'm thinking it was the Walkers.) Then he said that she was still awake when they got home, and walked in the house and up the spiral staircase ahead of their mother to her room.

Either he actually saw all of that happen, and is recalling it correctly, or he hasn't correctly recalled it, with his imagination filling in what his memory lost, and he has this much detail because he thinks he saw it. Thomas watched the videotaped interview and said he thought Burke was confused, and not having seen the videotape, I only have Thomas's impression to go on...but Thomas also did not clarify exactly what he thought Burke was confused about. I almost get the impression he meant he thought Burke was confused in general, and it came across in the interview.

Didn't police ever talk to the Walkers (or was it the Stines?) and ascertain whether Burke's account of JonBenet helping carry gifts from the car at a time when J&P would have us believe she was asleep was correct or not? Or was this another instance where the BPD was stonewalled by the DA's office and couldn't do their job properly? I also question why Thomas states they had to get warrants from Hunter (who wouldn't give them) and couldn't go around him to someone else who would issue the necessary warrants. I almost suspect no one would go over Hunter's head and help BPD against the Rs, and that the good ol boy network is that tight, with JR thick in it, knowing the right people when the time to call in favors popped up.

I don't think JonBenet ever made it to bed that night, or if she did, she wasn't in bed very long before she left it again, either by choice or by force. Thomas thinks she was put to bed, and I believe he would have information about that I don't, but the bed does not look slept in, and I doubt that white blanket was on her bed that night. The pillow at the foot of the bed is consistent with JB propping herself up to watch tv - my youngest does this every night himself.

I think that she probably DID make it to bed, just not HER bed. I agree, the bed did not look slept in at all. She may have slept in Burkes room, which the Ramsey said that she did all the time. It could have been Burke's bed that she wet..either his, or the other bed that he had in his room. The only thing about the pillow being at the foot of the bed, for her to watch videos...is the fact that Patsy was asked in her interview, if JB ever had nosebleeds...and that stain was found on the pillow. This is why I believe that Patsy put JB in HER bed, after she hit her head...and tried to revive her. Moving the pillow to the foot of the bed, so that she could lie JB out flat, and hold her head back..to stop the bleeding. Why else would there have been a bloodstain on the pillow....or would they question Patsy about it?

I have also wondered before if JB could have wet herself in the car, on the way home....this was a fleeting thought, because it wouldn't explain the pineapple, unless they didn't realize it, until after she had eaten a couple of bites.

 

[Ames]

But Ames, the rich and beautiful are above all that, doncha know.

OH yeah, I forgot...how silly of me. LOL

 

[BOESP]

Responses in blue below:

... Either he actually saw all of that happen, and is recalling it correctly, or he hasn't correctly recalled it, with his imagination filling in what his memory lost, and he has this much detail because he thinks he saw it. Thomas watched the videotaped interview and said he thought Burke was confused, and not having seen the videotape, I only have Thomas's impression to go on...but Thomas also did not clarify exactly what he thought Burke was confused about.

I can see that Burke could be confused but I don't think he would confuse seeing his mother and sister walk up the spiral staircase versus confusing it with walking into the Walker house with gifts. (John and Patsy said they didn't go to the Stines because it was getting late and the kids would want to stay up and play and they needed to get home and get to bed for their early morning trip). I have even wondered if maybe a little friend spent the night with the Ramseys to go to Charlevoix so Burke would have a playmate while there (that's just speculation, but I do wonder). Gosh, nine-year-olds (particularly boys) are all over the place when it comes to "mature" attention spans and recall so I would be afraid to speculate on Burke's abilities. They also are not good at keeping secrets usually.

.... we don't talk to Burke about the murder because he might get scared of the killer on the loose. That sounds good! People will believe that, even though we don't act like we're afraid of this killer at all. We don't talk to Burke about the murder because he might get scared."

I don't know who advised the Ramseys about handling Burke in that manner but I sure wouldn't recommend them as child advocates or psychological counselors. Somewhere I read that Burke went to a psychiatrist while in Georgia but I can't remember where I came by the information and it may not be true. Regardless, no psychiatrist is going to recommend that a child repress memories or feelings.

Didn't police ever talk to the Walkers (or was it the Stines?) and ascertain whether Burke's account of JonBenet helping carry gifts from the car at a time when J&P would have us believe she was asleep was correct or not? Or was this another instance where the BPD was stonewalled by the DA's office and couldn't do their job properly?

I suspect the Walkers, Stines, and many others were interviewed but the public is not privy to those transcripts. I get angry every time I think about Boulder's DA office that I can hardly think straight. Unfortunately, head butting seems to be the norm between many DA offices and police departments. I think due process has gotten lost somewhere along the line.

I also question why Thomas states they had to get warrants from Hunter (who wouldn't give them) and couldn't go around him to someone else who would issue the necessary warrants. I almost suspect no one would go over Hunter's head and help BPD against the Rs, and that the good ol boy network is that tight, with JR thick in it, knowing the right people when the time to call in favors popped up.

I thought maybe Colorado didn't work under the same systems I'm familiar with, meaning you can go to a judge if the DA won't listen. (Hey, I'm trying to be unbiased here :angel:.)

I don't think JonBenet ever made it to bed that night, or if she did, she wasn't in bed very long before she left it again, either by choice or by force. Thomas thinks she was put to bed, and I believe he would have information about that I don't, but the bed does not look slept in, and I doubt that white blanket was on her bed that night. The pillow at the foot of the bed is consistent with JB propping herself up to watch tv - my youngest does this every night himself.

 

[BOESP]

Hi Solace,

I agree the red top was worn by JonBenet when she went to bed and it became wet.I still feel the bedroom shows more signs of a struggle than the bathroom (the hair ties and curtain tieback) and I just bet the beds in JBs room were of solid wood and would certainly cause a good whack to the head especially if JB was being swung round.

I came to believe that JR and PR were guilty by a combination of things-the handwriting analysis is irrefutable IMO especially certain letters.Also looking at it logically it just couldnt have been anyone else,no obvious signs of a break in,no forensic evidence of an intruder,the fibers etc etc.Its like a jigsaw-each piece on its own means nothing but put together and you can see the bigger picture.I dont believe JB was being sexually abused but douched and I do believe she was a very much loved little girl.

Daffodil, I see things pretty much as you see them except I haven't seen photos of the bathroom or read much of a description about how it appeared during the investigation. Based on what little is available, the bath sounded a bit messy too. JonBenet's room was probably pretty messy most of the time based on several statements, including those from Patsy and John, that the family wasn't the neatest in the world.

 

[Callan]

Notice to all new guests. This is a site for RDIs only. Please do be not be disrespectful by challanging their postings. The details below, are officially accepted by the people here, to be the cause and reason, why JonBenet Ramsey died. Enjoy your visit.


Patsy Ramsey goes into her daughters bedroom, awakens her and discovers that she has wet the bed.

Patsy goes into a rage, she drags her daughter downstairs and gives her a bowl of pineapple. Patsy [still in a rage] waits around two hours and then drags her daughter back upstairs and into the bathroom. She then either throws or pushes her daughter, who then bangs her head, against an hard surface.

[The other version, is the same has the above, except this time, after waiting two hours, Patsy, instead of going back upstairs with her daughter, goes and fetches a torch, which she then smashes into her daughters head.]

Patsy picks up her unconcious daughter and takes her down to the basement. She then decides to finish off her daughter and needs to stage things, so that it appears that her daughter, was killed by an intruder. Firstly, she sexually assaults her daughter, with a paintbrush. Following this [and for no apparent reason] she performs a sex act on her daughter and then wipes away any trace evidence. However, she does not do a good job and DNA is left in her daughters underwear. Strange thing is though, when the DNA is later analysed, it is found that it belongs to a MALE!

She then conjures up some cord and a piece of tape and attaches them.

After all this, Patsy then makes a garrotte and strangles her daughter.

However, later the autopsy states that the strangleing came FIRST, due to the relatively low amount of blood around the brain.

We reserve the right to alter certain things, so that they do not contradict our theories.

 

[Squishified]

Notice to all new guests.

Please be aware that the theory Callan presents does not represent any theory that I have seen put forth by any RDI.

 

[DeeDee249]

Actually, the autopsy states both causes of death together, giving precedence to neither. That would usually mean that they happened close enough together that it is not possible to state just one. However, it has been stated that the head blow alone would have been enough to kill her; the strangulation alone may not have. Don't be misled by the horrible appearance of the ligature furrows in JBR's neck in the autopsy photos. They looked deadly; but no internal neck structures were damaged. They may have cut off oxygen and pressed on the vagus nerve, though.

For the record, I am one RDI who does not believe it was premeditated. I believe PR loved her daughter- to the point of obsession. It was an irrational act of rage by a stressed and physically ill woman whose explosive temper was seen by few, and in people like that, it simmers just below the surface. When it boils over, watch out.

 

[DeeDee249]

Oh, and Ames- it was ME that PM'd you about the green dot! I thought it meant we were...special!

 

[Squishified]

Oh, and Ames- it was ME that PM'd you about the green dot! I thought it meant we were...special!

I always thought the green dot meant someone relatively new to WS and that you had to earn the blue dot. :doh:

 

[Solace]

Notice to all new guests. This is a site for RDIs only. Please do be not be disrespectful by challanging their postings. The details below, are officially accepted by the people here, to be the cause and reason, why JonBenet Ramsey died. Enjoy your visit.


Patsy Ramsey goes into her daughters bedroom, awakens her and discovers that she has wet the bed. Not necessarily Callan. We don't know that she was in that bed.

Patsy goes into a rage, she drags her daughter downstairs and gives her a bowl of pineapple. Patsy [still in a rage] waits around two hours and then drags her daughter back upstairs and into the bathroom. She then either throws or pushes her daughter, who then bangs her head, against an hard surface. Wrong again. See Burke says JonBenet walked ahead of him into the house. It is more than likely that she and Burke had some pineapple around the time they arrived. Burke appears to have drank some tea as his fingerprints are on the glass and Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl of pineapple and there was residue of what appears to be pineapple found in JonBenet's intestines. Also, Patsy says JonBenet was wearing a red turtleneck and then changes. HOWEVER, a red turtleneck was found rolled up in a ball on the bathroom floor. A possible scenario is that JonBenet went to bed and fell asleep with the red turtleneck on and wet her bed and Patsy, who regularly checked on JonBent at midnight to take her to the bathroom, did so this evening. She finds her soaked and the bed wet. She wakens JB in a rage and twists her turtleneck around her neck leaving her thumbprint (we have discussed this before Callan) and drags her to the bathroom - JB is being strangled at this point and Patsy throws her into the bathrrom and JB hits her head on the bathtub. This is in seconds. Patsy hears the crack and sees JB unconscious and feels her head and CAN FEEL THE CRACK and it is huge. Patsy is terrified and self preservation kicks in.

[The other version, is the same has the above, except this time, after waiting two hours, Patsy, instead of going back upstairs with her daughter, goes and fetches a torch, which she then smashes into her daughters head.] I doubt it.

Patsy picks up her unconcious daughter and takes her down to the basement. She then decides to finish off her daughter and needs to stage things, so that it appears that her daughter, was killed by an intruder. Firstly, she sexually assaults her daughter, with a paintbrush. Following this [and for no apparent reason] she performs a sex act on her daughter and then wipes away any trace evidence. However, she does not do a good job and DNA is left in her daughters underwear. Strange thing is though, when the DNA is later analysed, it is found that it belongs to a MALE! First sentence is likely, or it could have been John. But someone carried her to the basement and traces of the green garlands were found in JonBenet's hair, likely gotten there as she was carried downstairs and her hair fell against the garland. Patsy or John does this staging with the paintbrush. It is likely Patsy SINCE FIBERS FROM HER JACKET WERE FOUND INTERTWINED IN THE GARROTE AND THE PAINT TRAY AND BEHIND THE TAPE THAT WAS USED TO COVER JB'S MOUTH. JonBenet was unconscious when the tape was applied.

Patsy does not perform a sex act on her child. Callan you have to read more about this case. The strangling of JB and the rest is pure staging.

THE DNA THAT WAS FOUND HAS BEEN DISCUSSED OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Listen Carefully, Callan, per Dr. Henry Lee, it is likely the DNA from the worker who handled the underwear in packaging.

She then conjures up some cord and a piece of tape and attaches them.

After all this, Patsy then makes a garrotte and strangles her daughter.

However, later the autopsy states that the strangleing came FIRST, due to the relatively low amount of blood around the brain. ANOTHER MISCONCEPTION, CLUNG TO BY THE RAMSEYS AND FOR LACK OF A BETTER DESCRIPTION, ILLITERATE BELIEVERS. There was extensive hemmorhaging in three separate areas of the brain.

We reserve the right to alter certain things, so that they do not contradict our theories.

Callan for someone who thought there must have been APPARENT massive bleeding all over the place from the headwound, you assume again and wrongly.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate.

 

[Solace]

Actually, the autopsy states both causes of death together, giving precedence to neither. That would usually mean that they happened close enough together that it is not possible to state just one. However, it has been stated that the head blow alone would have been enough to kill her; the strangulation alone may not have. Don't be misled by the horrible appearance of the ligature furrows in JBR's neck in the autopsy photos. They looked deadly; but no internal neck structures were damaged. They may have cut off oxygen and pressed on the vagus nerve, though.

For the record, I am one RDI who does not believe it was premeditated. I believe PR loved her daughter- to the point of obsession. It was an irrational act of rage by a stressed and physically ill woman whose explosive temper was seen by few, and in people like that, it simmers just below the surface. When it boils over, watch out.

I also believe she loved JonBenet but she had been up since 6:00 that morning. That is 17 hours before Patsy says she went to bed (around 10:00 p.m.). I don't know about Callan, but I would have been dragging my feet and possibly nautious at that point from exhaustion and her rage was white when she found JB had wet the bed and JB may possibly have given her an argument when Patsy woke her. Nedra said she did not like to be woken up and would sometimes give the waker an elbow. So I can see Patsy ending that very quickly and saying "lets go now" and not realizing her own strength is strangling JB and leaving her thumbprint in her neck as she twists possibly the red turtleneck and JB is maybe kicking and by the time she gets to the bathroom is going limp (from the strangulation) and loses control of her body and Patsy throws her and JB lands HEAD first (THE BACK OF THE HEAD) into the bathtub.

I don't care what anyone says about this having to be an injury caused by a heavy object. There are no absolutes in this world and things can happen that do not go along with the norm and I think that is what happened with this injury and then it was over.