Where and when?

[Venom]

So if I'm remembering right there were two neighbors curious about the Ramsey home that night. A woman heard a scream and a man saw lights. Neither called the police.

If JB screamed, doesn't that mean the only theory of her death must include, at the least, the entire family? If a person across the street, most likely with her windows and drapes closed, heard a scream loud enough to wake her up the family couldn't have failed to hear it too. Including Burke.

Yes, a neighbor heard a scream and another reported seeing lights. I think that the woman woke her husband up and he heard the sound of metal going over concrete.

You would think that one would have likely heard a scream in the house, at least if it happened in the upstairs. If she screamed in the basement then it is possible that no one heard it.

 

[Nom de plume]

Yes, a neighbor heard a scream and another reported seeing lights. I think that the woman woke her husband up and he heard the sound of metal going over concrete.

You would think that one would have likely heard a scream in the house, at least if it happened in the upstairs. If she screamed in the basement then it is possible that no one heard it.

LE said they COULD hear a scream in the master bedroom that came from the basement.

 

[BOESP]

LE said they COULD hear a scream in the master bedroom that came from the basement.

Yep, and Burke stated he would be able to hear the refrigerator door being opened and closed while he was in his bedroom. And Patsy stated she always left JonBenet's bedroom door ajar so she could hear JonBenet in case she needed something.

 

[Venom]

LE said they COULD hear a scream in the master bedroom that came from the basement.

I never heard that before or that BR could hear the fridge door being opened.
I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[DeeDee249]

Her own family has her date of death listed as 12.25.96. On her tombstone. They oughtta know. JMO.

Actually, JR said that they CHOSE to put that date on the grave. He claimed that they "didn't actually know" when she died, but chose that date because Christmas would have made it even more "notable" so the "world could see what it did to JonBenet on Christmas" (his words).

But that being said-- yep, they knew.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Actually, JR said that they CHOSE to put that date on the grave. He claimed that they "didn't actually know" when she died, but chose that date because Christmas would have made it even more "notable" so the "world could see what it did to JonBenet on Christmas" (his words).

But that being said-- yep, they knew.

He gave another reasoning...I think during the December 2006 interview with Larry King. He said that since the note said they would call the next morning, they assumed it was written on the 25th, meaning that was the day JBR was killed.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

LE said they COULD hear a scream in the master bedroom that came from the basement.

They could? Who a small child? Because they don't scream the same as an adult. Was this while people lived there or when they were gone? Was the house full of furniture or empty. How do they know where the scream originated from?

Experiments only work with confined parameters.

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
It looks that way. I reckon the bedroom scenario can be firmed up by considering the hair-ties, i.e. were they placed on JonBenet as she was put into bed, or are they postmortem staging?

One question I turn over regularly is: would Patsy prepare JonBenet for bed, put her hair up, then tell her to come downstairs for a pineapple snack, knowing she wets the bed and has to rise early the following morning?

Also if Patsy did prepare the pineapple snack, why did she not clear away all the evidence, including wiping and washing glasses, bowls and spoons?

It looks to me as if someone suggested a pineapple snack to JonBenet after she was in bed, and that they might take a look at some Christmas presents, e.g. Barbie Doll?

.

UKGuy....OK, (light bulb in brain goes on). Now I see significance of the hair-ties. They would have been put on when Patsy put JB to bed.

There is no way I believe PR served the pineapple to JB that evening. She wanted her kids in bed and asleep for the big day ahead.

I do believe someone else served that pineapple to JB, but I wouldn't necessarily agree that JB went down to the kitchen to eat it. Although it is possible she was talked into leaving her bedroom to look for that Barbie Doll. I'll give you that.

 

[Chrishope]

12:43 am.

Seriously, between 11 and 1.

I don't think it was premeditated, and it would take time for events to unfold so I don't see it coming much before 11 and probably not that early.

Due to the rigor we can estimate that she died about 12 hours prior to being "found", though this isn't pinpoint precise, and the coroner neglected to do the tests that would allow greater precision. If the rigor estimate is reasonably accurate, it couldn't have been much later than 1am otherwise she would not have been in rigor when JR carried her body upstairs.

I don't use the scream to help determine TOD because I'm not sure what MS means by negative energy and I'm not sure she has the proper type pyramid shaped crystal to pick up on negative energy.

I don't use the lights because sometimes people leave lights on, or turn lights off, and especially at Holiday time people are not necessarily following their normal routines.

IMO rigor is about all we have to go on to establish TOD.

POD was probably the basement because of the creatinine stain.

That's not to say significant events didn't happen elsewhere, likely in the BR. Just that death happened in the basement.


As an aside, everyone seems to think it's suspicious that no family member claims to have heard the scream (or was it negative energy?) yet everyone seems perfectly comfortable with the fact that MS's husband didn't hear it. Presumably they were sharing the same bed. One heard it (if, in fact, it happened) the other didn't. Some people sleep through noises, some don't.

 

[BOESP]

Don't forget the pineapple, Chrishope. It helps pinpoint the time too.

Sweeping generalities like "everyone seems to think" and "everyone seems perfectly comfortable with" is assuming an awful lot isn't it? As for me, I think it is possible, based on the testing the BPD officers did and Steve Thomas wrote about, that the Ramseys could have heard a scream if it came from the basement. That's all. For all we know the scream came from somewhere else, maybe even a different house. Or maybe it didn't happen at all.

Didn't Ms. Stanton also claim that she was awake already and then woke her husband?

 

[Chrishope]

Don't forget the pineapple, Chrishope. It helps pinpoint the time too.

Sweeping generalities like "everyone seems to think" and "everyone seems perfectly comfortable with" is assuming an awful lot isn't it?

I don't see how the pineapple helps determine TOD, unless we can say what time she ate pineapple. What we can say is she ate it roughly 2 hours before death. TOD, established via rigor, lets us say when she ate the pineapple, but it doesn't work the other way 'round, unless I'm missing something.

Don't take the "sweeping generalities" too seriously, I'm just saying that if one wants to make an issue of the Rs not hearing a scream, then one needs to acknowledge and explain why Mr. Stanton didn't hear it. OTOH if he simply slept through it, why couldn't the Rs do that too?

 

[BOESP]

I don't see how the pineapple helps determine TOD, unless we can say what time she ate pineapple. What we can say is she ate it roughly 2 hours before death. TOD, established via rigor, lets us say when she ate the pineapple, but it doesn't work the other way 'round, unless I'm missing something.

Don't take the "sweeping generalities" too seriously, I'm just saying that if one wants to make an issue of the Rs not hearing a scream, then one needs to acknowledge and explain why Mr. Stanton didn't hear it. OTOH if he simply slept through it, why couldn't the Rs do that too?

Well, the Ramseys estimated they arrived home at 9:30 PM. No pineapple was served at the Whites according to Patsy and Priscilla White. The pineapple is suggested to have been in the digestive system about two hours, stopping at JonBenet's time of death. That puts it at 11:30 or after doesn't it? The rigor puts the TOD at approximately twelve hours or more before JonBenet was found, so that seems to make the pineapple helpful in determining the time of death.

I didn't know anyone was making an issue out of hearing or not hearing the scream -- thankfully, I missed that argument. As an aside, Patsy stated she kept JonBenet's door ajar so she could hear her at night which suggests she was used to listening for her daughter. The police experiment showed that it was possible to hear a cry from the basement. I believe that is how Thomas put it, "it was possible to hear" someone screaming from the basement if one was in John and Patsy's bedroom.

 

[Chrishope]

Well, the Ramseys estimated they arrived home at 9:30 PM. No pineapple was served at the Whites according to Patsy and Priscilla White. The pineapple is suggested to have been in the digestive system about two hours, stopping at JonBenet's time of death. That puts it at 11:30 or after doesn't it? The rigor puts the TOD at approximately twelve hours or more before JonBenet was found, so that seems to make the pineapple helpful in determining the time of death.

It seems to be the rigor that is determining TOD, not the pineapple. We don't know that she ate pineapple at 9:30 (though it's a pretty reasonable guess, 9:30 to 10 or so) What if our rigor estimate for TOD is off the mark and she actually died at 3am. (hypothetically perhaps she was in the freezer for a while) That would mean she ate pineapple at 1am. It's not that I think the rigor estimate is that faulty' it's just that we can't determine TOD from the pineapple unless we can establish when she ate pineapple - what time on the clock, not how many hours before death. We can make some reasonable guesses about that, but I don't see that we can establish TOD from it. All we really know about the pineapple is that she ate it 2 hours before she died. We have to establish TOD independently of the pineapple.

I didn't know anyone was making an issue out of hearing or not hearing the scream -- thankfully, I missed that argument. As an aside, Patsy stated she kept JonBenet's door ajar so she could hear her at night which suggests she was used to listening for her daughter. The police experiment showed that it was possible to hear a cry from the basement. I believe that is how Thomas put it, "it was possible to hear" someone screaming from the basement if one was in John and Patsy's bedroom.

They weren't, which was my point. I have no problem with the fact that it was possible to hear the scream from JR/PR's bedroom. All I'm pointing out is that it was possible to hear it from MS's bedroom as well, and Mr. Stanton didn't hear it. IOWs, the Rs not hearing the scream doesn't seem to me to be more suspicious than Mr. Stanton not hearing it.

I've forgotten now whether MS was awake before hearing the scream or if it woke her. That might account for why her husband didn't hear it, but then the same must hold true for the Rs, shouldn't it?

 

[BOESP]

It seems to be the rigor that is determining TOD, not the pineapple. We don't know that she ate pineapple at 9:30 (though it's a pretty reasonable guess, 9:30 to 10 or so) What if our rigor estimate for TOD is off the mark and she actually died at 3am. (hypothetically perhaps she was in the freezer for a while) That would mean she ate pineapple at 1am. It's not that I think the rigor estimate is that faulty' it's just that we can't determine TOD from the pineapple unless we can establish when she ate pineapple - what time on the clock, not how many hours before death. We can make some reasonable guesses about that, but I don't see that we can establish TOD from it. All we really know about the pineapple is that she ate it 2 hours before she died. We have to establish TOD independently of the pineapple.


They weren't, which was my point. I have no problem with the fact that it was possible to hear the scream from JR/PR's bedroom. All I'm pointing out is that it was possible to hear it from MS's bedroom as well, and Mr. Stanton didn't hear it. IOWs, the Rs not hearing the scream doesn't seem to me to be more suspicious than Mr. Stanton not hearing it.

I've forgotten now whether MS was awake before hearing the scream or if it woke her. That might account for why her husband didn't hear it, but then the same must hold true for the Rs, shouldn't it?

BBM. Only if they were asleep. :facepalm:

 

[Chrishope]

BBM. Only if they were asleep. :facepalm:

Yes, that's true. And we know at least one of them was not.

 

[2 percent]

As an aside, everyone seems to think it's suspicious that no family member claims to have heard the scream (or was it negative energy?) yet everyone seems perfectly comfortable with the fact that MS's husband didn't hear it. Presumably they were sharing the same bed. One heard it (if, in fact, it happened) the other didn't. Some people sleep through noises, some don't.

The volume of a scream would be different in the same house as it occurred versus a house across the street. So the likelihood is greater that the people in the house where the scream took place would hear it.

I agree that people sleep differently but assuming the husband slept through the noise is one thing. Assuming the mother of the child who purposely listened for noises missed it as well as the brother who slept in the same floor is unlikely. If it came from the basement, the point still stands...the scream would be louder in the house it occurred and a mother who listens for distress from her child(ren) would most likely have woken up.

That really is my only point about the scream. I tend to doubt its existence.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Don't forget the pineapple, Chrishope. It helps pinpoint the time too.

Sweeping generalities like "everyone seems to think" and "everyone seems perfectly comfortable with" is assuming an awful lot isn't it? As for me, I think it is possible, based on the testing the BPD officers did and Steve Thomas wrote about, that the Ramseys could have heard a scream if it came from the basement. That's all. For all we know the scream came from somewhere else, maybe even a different house. Or maybe it didn't happen at all.

Didn't Ms. Stanton also claim that she was awake already and then woke her husband?

The pineapple does not help much if you ask me.

Also ST opinion about what they could hear is irrelevant. It would have to be the same conditions as that night, the same voice, the same positioning exactly. He has a lot of opinion that is meaningless to me.

Just because he says it does not make it true.

 

[Chrishope]

The volume of a scream would be different in the same house as it occurred versus a house across the street. So the likelihood is greater that the people in the house where the scream took place would hear it.

That may be true, depending on how the sound can travel across the street compared to traveling through the house. A very fair point.

I agree that people sleep differently but assuming the husband slept through the noise is one thing. Assuming the mother of the child who purposely listened for noises missed it as well as the brother who slept in the same floor is unlikely.

I don't know about that. I've slept through a fire at that house next door with sirens and flashers and 3 trucks and firemen all over the place. OTOH let the furnace make one little noise it isn't supposed to make and I'm up in a flash.

If it came from the basement, the point still stands...the scream would be louder in the house it occurred and a mother who listens for distress from her child(ren) would most likely have woken up.

Respectfully, I don't see any basis for that conclusion. We want to believe mothers would always hear their child, but they just don't, not always.

That really is my only point about the scream. I tend to doubt its existence.

I tend to agree with you. I think it's very questionable that there was a scream.

 

[Chrishope]

The pineapple does not help much if you ask me.

Also ST opinion about what they could hear is irrelevant. It would have to be the same conditions as that night, the same voice, the same positioning exactly. He has a lot of opinion that is meaningless to me.

Just because he says it does not make it true.

I wouldn't go that far. Standing in the basement yelling and other officers upstairs listening seems to me a pretty reasonable way to test whether or not a scream can be heard.

 

[Nom de plume]

With re to the pineapple. There's been quite a bit of discussion about pineapple moving through the system faster due to the high water content. Also posters having tests to determine digestive problems which showed food/liquid reaching the same point in the digestive tract in 23 min IIRC.

IMO, we can't really know for sure how long before death the pineapple was eaten. I think 2 hrs is just an estimate.