Where and when?

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I wouldn't go that far. Standing in the basement yelling and other officers upstairs listening seems to me a pretty reasonable way to test whether or not a scream can be heard.

Not to me. And I depends on when they did it..
If it was a child that screamed they need a child. A 6 yr old would have a different voice. If they are saying it was PR, Then they would need her, People have different voices and carry differently. I scream and you could probably hear where you are now, My aunt screams and I don't think I could hear it in the house. I have seen her scream and cry in agony.. It is not loud at all.

So to me while this may have been an experiment, too many unknowns make it unreliable.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

With re to the pineapple. There's been quite a bit of discussion about pineapple moving through the system faster due to the high water content. Also posters having tests to determine digestive problems which showed food/liquid reaching the same point in the digestive tract in 23 min IIRC.

IMO, we can't really know for sure how long before death the pineapple was eaten. I think 2 hrs is just an estimate.

We have to remember it was a child and that we don't know how much she consumed, nor when she consumed it.

For me it only means she had some, but I don't think it helps at all.

 

[BOESP]

With re to the pineapple. There's been quite a bit of discussion about pineapple moving through the system faster due to the high water content. Also posters having tests to determine digestive problems which showed food/liquid reaching the same point in the digestive tract in 23 min IIRC.

IMO, we can't really know for sure how long before death the pineapple was eaten. I think 2 hrs is just an estimate.

BBM. I agree Nom.

So, if the Ramseys arrived home approximately 9:30 PM as they both stated, she ate it at a minimum of 9:53 PM to 11:30 PM (that allows for the minimum and maximum digestion time, although some have stated four hours digestion time is possible, which means she ate it no later than 1:53 AM, which imo is unlikely).

She was in full rigor at 1:00 PM the next day. Rigor usually lasts several hours.

Several coroners/medical examiners have stated concerning this case that the blunt force head trauma and ligature strangulation occurred anywhere from several minutes to two hours apart. (Wecht thought the strangulation occurred first.)

Anyway I slice the above information there's only a two-hour window for the events that caused her death and I see the pineapple digestion rate as helpful in determining that time frame.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy....OK, (light bulb in brain goes on). Now I see significance of the hair-ties. They would have been put on when Patsy put JB to bed.

There is no way I believe PR served the pineapple to JB that evening. She wanted her kids in bed and asleep for the big day ahead.

I do believe someone else served that pineapple to JB, but I wouldn't necessarily agree that JB went down to the kitchen to eat it. Although it is possible she was talked into leaving her bedroom to look for that Barbie Doll. I'll give you that.

Chelly,
It looks to me as if JonBenet consumed the pineapple at the breakfast bar. BR's fingerprints are on the bowl and the teaglass. This links him to the pineapple snack, just as his touch-dna on her pink barbie nightgown links him to her.

Now did BR redress JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown and place the barbie doll beside her in an attempt to stage some kind of normal bedroom scene?

This might explain why the pink pajama bottoms are missing, i.e. they are forensically stained as are her size-6 underwear.

From memory Kolar suggested BR's pajama bottoms were found in JonBenet's bedroom, if so, why?

Two children with pajama bottoms removed, and one sexually assaulted, that seems to add up for me?


.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Chelly,
It looks to me as if JonBenet consumed the pineapple at the breakfast bar. BR's fingerprints are on the bowl and the teaglass. This links him to the pineapple snack, just as his touch-dna on her pink barbie nightgown links him to her.

Now did BR redress JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown and place the barbie doll beside her in an attempt to stage some kind of normal bedroom scene?

This might explain why the pink pajama bottoms are missing, i.e. they are forensically stained as are her size-6 underwear.

From memory Kolar suggested BR's pajama bottoms were found in JonBenet's bedroom, if so, why?

Two children with pajama bottoms removed, and one sexually assaulted, that seems to add up for me?


.

SO BR's touch dna links him but the unknown touch dna links no one? How does that work exactly?

How do we know how long ago BR touched that glass? and bowl? Aren't his fingerprints supposed to be on the the items in his house?

 

[madeleine]

Not to me. And I depends on when they did it..
If it was a child that screamed they need a child. A 6 yr old would have a different voice. If they are saying it was PR, Then they would need her, People have different voices and carry differently. I scream and you could probably hear where you are now, My aunt screams and I don't think I could hear it in the house. I have seen her scream and cry in agony.. It is not loud at all.

So to me while this may have been an experiment, too many unknowns make it unreliable.

please tell me you are kidding

 

[UKGuy]

BBM. I agree Nom.

So, if the Ramseys arrived home approximately 9:30 PM as they both stated, she ate it at a minimum of 9:53 PM to 11:30 PM (that allows for the minimum and maximum digestion time, although some have stated four hours digestion time is possible, which means she ate it no later than 1:53 AM, which imo is unlikely).

She was in full rigor at 1:00 PM the next day. Rigor usually lasts several hours.

Several coroners/medical examiners have stated concerning this case that the blunt force head trauma and ligature strangulation occurred anywhere from several minutes to two hours apart. (Wecht thought the strangulation occurred first.)

Anyway I slice the above information there's only a two-hour window for the events that caused her death and I see the pineapple digestion rate as helpful in determining that time frame.

BOESP,
Pineapple can be digested very quickly depending on all the usual factors, i.e. empty stomach, desire to eat, solid or peeled, etc. One to Two hours is usually cited as the transit time, but as Pineapple is mostly water, the lower time is just as likely.

.

 

[UKGuy]

SO BR's touch dna links him but the unknown touch dna links no one? How does that work exactly?

How do we know how long ago BR touched that glass? and bowl? Aren't his fingerprints supposed to be on the the items in his house?

ScarlettScarpetta,
Its all conjecture from the available evidence. Unknown touch-dna is just that, i.e. anonymous, and as Kolar suggests not that of a FF composed of numerous individuals.

BR's fingerprints are allowed to be anywhere in the house as is his touch-dna. Yet if it coincides with what was possibly JonBenet's last known location or clothing that was clean on her that night, then speculation regarding its appearance is feasible. Same applies to PR, she has forensic evidence strewn all over the wine-cellar, and has her fingerprints on the bowl. But BR has his fingerprints on the bowl and the teaglass along with his touch-dna on an item of clothing to be found at the staged crime-scene.

Like it or not all that links BR to the sexual assault and staged crime-scene!


.

 

[Nom de plume]

Chelly,
It looks to me as if JonBenet consumed the pineapple at the breakfast bar. BR's fingerprints are on the bowl and the teaglass. This links him to the pineapple snack, just as his touch-dna on her pink barbie nightgown links him to her.

Now did BR redress JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown and place the barbie doll beside her in an attempt to stage some kind of normal bedroom scene?

This might explain why the pink pajama bottoms are missing, i.e. they are forensically stained as are her size-6 underwear.

From memory Kolar suggested BR's pajama bottoms were found in JonBenet's bedroom, if so, why?

Two children with pajama bottoms removed, and one sexually assaulted, that seems to add up for me?


.

This does not link him to the pineapple snack that night. It links him to the tea glass which could have been from that afternoon, or the day before. At some point he also touched the pineapple bowl, but when? There's no time stamp on fingerprints UK. It's always presumed that the tea was drank, and the pineapple eaten at the same time, but there's no way to know that for a fact. We all know what a lousy housekeeper PR was, so who knows how long either one were on the breakfast bar! Anyone basing a BDI theory on this is assuming facts not in evidence.

 

[UKGuy]

This does not link him to the pineapple snack that night. It links him to the tea glass which could have been from that afternoon, or the day before. At some point he also touched the pineapple bowl, but when? There's no time stamp on fingerprints UK. It's always presumed that the tea was drank, and the pineapple eaten at the same time, but there's no way to know that for a fact. We all know what a lousy housekeeper PR was, so who knows how long either one were on the breakfast bar! Anyone basing a BDI theory on this is assuming facts not in evidence.

Nom de plume,
mmm, it works both ways. JonBenet consumed Pinapple that night, BR's fingerprints are on the bowl and teaglass. You suggest coincidence, I reckon they are linked just as BR's touch-dna found on JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown link him to her.

You can suggest any timeframe for BR's forensic evidence arriving where it does. I am conjecturing the evening of 12/25/1996 for the explicit purpose of testing whether a BDI theory is feasible?

So far nothing appears to be inconsistent with the notional BDI as outlined, of course you have not seen it all!


.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

ScarlettScarpetta,
Its all conjecture from the available evidence. Unknown touch-dna is just that, i.e. anonymous, and as Kolar suggests not that of a FF composed of numerous individuals.

BR's fingerprints are allowed to be anywhere in the house as is his touch-dna. Yet if it coincides with what was possibly JonBenet's last known location or clothing that was clean on her that night, then speculation regarding its appearance is feasible. Same applies to PR, she has forensic evidence strewn all over the wine-cellar, and has her fingerprints on the bowl. But BR has his fingerprints on the bowl and the teaglass along with his touch-dna on an item of clothing to be found at the staged crime-scene.

Like it or not all that links BR to the sexual assault and staged crime-scene!


.

First to believe this scenario you have to put BR is the mix and I won't. Not with more proof that fingerprints that belong there and dna that also belongs in the house and on loved ones.


It links him to living there nothing more. The other is a leap of conjecture.

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
It looks to me as if JonBenet consumed the pineapple at the breakfast bar. BR's fingerprints are on the bowl and the teaglass. This links him to the pineapple snack, just as his touch-dna on her pink barbie nightgown links him to her.

Now did BR redress JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown and place the barbie doll beside her in an attempt to stage some kind of normal bedroom scene?

This might explain why the pink pajama bottoms are missing, i.e. they are forensically stained as are her size-6 underwear.

From memory Kolar suggested BR's pajama bottoms were found in JonBenet's bedroom, if so, why?

Two children with pajama bottoms removed, and one sexually assaulted, that seems to add up for me?


.

UKGuy: You do challenge this old brain of mine: I don't think BR was involved in any redressing and staging. That is where PR and JR came in. However, that theory deserves some consideration.

I think the missing pj bottoms and size 6's were stuffed into the trash cans in the alley (JR spent considerable time the next day looking through a window with binoculars into that alley). Possibly the stained items were stuffed into the bottom of JR's golf club bag located outside the WC. As we know, JR insisted PR's sister, Pam, bring him that golf bag the day she removed valuable evidence from the home dressed in the FBI jacket).

Yup, BR's pj bottoms were found in JB's bedroom and they were stained with feces. Thus, I agree: "Two children with pajama bottoms removed, and one sexually assaulted, that seems to add up for me?" That adds up to something to me too.

I have never worn rose-colored glasses. I spent my working days in a profession that reports on the good, bad and ugly in this world.

Very bizarre stuff happens in families. That's a fact.

UKGuy: Do you think BR was involved in redressing? What was BR's involvement?

 

[UKGuy]

First to believe this scenario you have to put BR is the mix and I won't. Not with more proof that fingerprints that belong there and dna that also belongs in the house and on loved ones.


It links him to living there nothing more. The other is a leap of conjecture.

ScarlettScarpetta,
Thats why I post, so to express opinion and form conjecture, some valid some not so.


.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

ScarlettScarpetta,
Thats why I post, so to express opinion and form conjecture, some valid some not so.


.

Once out there it is open to scrutiny.

I see occams razor thrown out there all the time. This is an appropriate place.

Sorting through you have to be able to discount the easiest most obvious scenario first, The one that makes sense on the most basic level.

How one can jump straight to a 9 yr old being involved in the murder of his sister, without proof bothers me greatly.

When I watch cold cases get solved, They start with the obvious and remove them one by one. The issue is that that DNA can have absolutely innocent origins, and there is no proof otherwise because he belongs there.

The other 6 profiles do not. That is where I think there is something to be had.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy: You do challenge this old brain of mine: I don't think BR was involved in any redressing and staging. That is where PR and JR came in. However, that theory deserves some consideration.

I think the missing pj bottoms and size 6's were stuffed into the trash cans in the alley (JR spent considerable time the next day looking through a window with binoculars into that alley). Possibly the stained items were stuffed into the bottom of JR's golf club bag located outside the WC. As we know, JR insisted PR's sister, Pam, bring him that golf bag the day she removed valuable evidence from the home dressed in the FBI jacket).

Yup, BR's pj bottoms were found in JB's bedroom and they were stained with feces. Thus, I agree: "Two children with pajama bottoms removed, and one sexually assaulted, that seems to add up for me?" That adds up to something to me too.

I have never worn rose-colored glasses. I spent my working days in a profession that reports on the good, bad and ugly in this world.

Very bizarre stuff happens in families. That's a fact.

UKGuy: Do you think BR was involved in redressing? What was BR's involvement?

Chelly,
Yes I do. In my BDI BR sexually assaults JonBenet playing doctor or whatever they got up to. This goes wrong due to BR's insensitivity and his age leading to JonBenet becoming unconcious, followed by a staging as he attempts to clean up the mess in the bedroom, but leaves his pajama bottoms behind.

I did speculate that BR anally assaulted JonBenet leading to the forensic evidence partially described by Kolar, as well as vaginally assaulting her?

For explanatory purposes I partition the crime-scene in two, i.e. an Upstairs Arena and a Downstairs Arena, the latter is where the staging takes place, and the former is where the sexual assault takes place.

.

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
Yes I do. In my BDI BR sexually assaults JonBenet playing doctor or whatever they got up to. This goes wrong due to BR's insensitivity and his age leading to JonBenet becoming unconcious, followed by a staging as he attempts to clean up the mess in the bedroom, but leaves his pajama bottoms behind.

I did speculate that BR anally assaulted JonBenet leading to the forensic evidence partially described by Kolar, as well as vaginally assaulting her?

For explanatory purposes I partition the crime-scene in two, i.e. an Upstairs Arena and a Downstairs Arena, the latter is where the staging takes place, and the former is where the sexual assault takes place.

.

UKGuy, Ok, this pretty much follows my theory.

Forgive me if my memory is failing me. I believe you have speculated that BR is responsible for the tying up of JB?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, Ok, this pretty much follows my theory.

Forgive me if my memory is failing me. I believe you have speculated that BR is responsible for the tying up of JB?

Chelly,
Not me. He may have tied her up, some think it some kind of EA behaviour. I reckon BR went too far that night with JonBenet rejecting his attempt to play doctor.

.

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
Not me. He may have tied her up, some think it some kind of EA behaviour. I reckon BR went too far that night with JonBenet rejecting his attempt to play doctor.

.

Thank you for clearing up the tying up.

I agree that the ongoing sex play went too far that night and JB got hurt. BR's involvement ended after the head-bash.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you for clearing up the tying up.

I agree that the ongoing sex play went too far that night and JB got hurt. BR's involvement ended after the head-bash.

Chelly,
Possibly or he was not responsible for any head-bash?

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
Possibly or he was not responsible for any head-bash?

So do you think someone else became angry, possibly observing the sex play, and dealt the head-bash?