"Who would leave children that young alone?"

[brit1981]

If they're not guilty they might as well be. Sorry.

Abandoning toddlers should be a prosecutable offense, and that goes for all the people who did it and had their toddlers survive.

If there is a reason these resorts offer this "service" I suppose it's because they think otherwise the parents would leave their kids all alone anyway and don't want the negative publicity that would follow if and when some of the kids end up dead or injured.

Regarding point a), if they were covering up for something, the abduction was their alibi, so of course they would have to have admitted leaving the children alone. It wouldn't have gone down half as well to say that we were here watching our kids and oops, one of them is gone. Maybe the unlocked door was an alibi too, to explain how the perp got in.

I was meaning that one of the people who said it was a cover-up claimed she died accidently, but it was covered up as an abduction to hide the fact they had left the children. But obviously there is no point staging a cover-up if you are going to admit something straight away.

But you could also say a parent who lets their child walk alone to school is guilty if the child is abducted. the parent let their child walk alone fully aware that if someone tried to abduct them the child could not defend themselves. Should Etan Patz's parents have been prosecuted? Should the parents of Holly Wells and jessica chapman be prosecuted for letting them walk through a village on their own in the early evening? What about the mother of natasha in austria, she allowed her daughter to wal to school with just another ten year old, and her daughter was kidnapped when she would not have been if an adult was there?

 

[Donjeta]

I already said that older children are a bit different from toddlers. There may be advantages to letting them spread their wings out a bit, if everything goes well, or it may be a matter of necessity as the children have to get to school somehow, and there are no school buses everywhere, maybe the parents have to go to work earlier and aren't available to be there to take the kids.

I don't know what possible advantage there would be for toddlers to be left alone in a strange hotel room at night, or how it could be necessary when there are several adults who are all perfectly capable of staying in and looking after the children if only they made the choice to put the children first.

 

[saggymoon]

2 and 3 year old toddlers do not walk themselves to school, what a dud argument.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I was meaning that one of the people who said it was a cover-up claimed she died accidently, but it was covered up as an abduction to hide the fact they had left the children. But obviously there is no point staging a cover-up if you are going to admit something straight away.

As you pointed out, they were unashamed of neglecting their babies, therefore not likely to cover this neglect up. However, if there had been an accidental overdose involved, (especially with DOCTORS) then there would be a need for a cover up indeed. And a disposal of the body.

But you could also say a parent who lets their child walk alone to school is guilty if the child is abducted. the parent let their child walk alone fully aware that if someone tried to abduct them the child could not defend themselves. Should Etan Patz's parents have been prosecuted? Should the parents of Holly Wells and jessica chapman be prosecuted for letting them walk through a village on their own in the early evening? What about the mother of natasha in austria, she allowed her daughter to wal to school with just another ten year old, and her daughter was kidnapped when she would not have been if an adult was there?

Every example you have used has been school aged children going about their daily business.

In the McCann case, we have BABIES alone in a strange room in a strange country. There IS no comparison between the two situations. These situations are apples and oranges. The parents of children who walk to school are guilty of exactly nothing. The parents of BABIES who are left alone for extended periods of time, are guilty of neglect.

Further, there is not ONE SHRED of evidence of an abduction, but an entire MOUNTAIN of circumstantial evidence indicating a cover-up.

 

[Donjeta]

They would hardly have been able to cover up leaving the children alone when it seems like there were other people who were perfectly aware that they were in the tapas bar with no kids in tow.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I've always said Madeline was the UK version of JBR and the similarities continue to amaze me...not least the fact that both sets of parents refused to co-operate with LE, and also seemed to have "friends in high places" and seemed to secure special treatment from their governments....I could go on and on.

There is a mountain in circumstantial evidence in both cases which point directly at the parent's involvement, and personally I cannot see how ANYONE can maintain the belief that they are uninvolved once they know the undisputed facts of the cases.

I do not opine based on what I read in a forum or in a newspaper. I fact check. I go to the time and trouble to read the original documents myself, not just decide guilt/innocence based on second hand theories that suit me. Always, the more you read, the more you find out. Your subconcious does the work. You read statements, for example, and pick up discrepancies. You get a lot of the tiny details that eventually go into building a basic sketch of what actually happened.

For example, one question I have never seen a McCann supporter answer satisfactorily is this -

When KM found Madeline gone, why did she run from the apartment screaming "They've taken her"?

As a mother, my first reaction would run from the apartment screaming "Madeline! Madeline!".

The door was unlocked, the bed empty. That is all. My first reaction would be to scream for my missing child, not assume some group abduction. It would be the last thing from any parent's mind. Parents call for their missing children, always.

This did not happen in either case. Why?

 

[saggymoon]

yes sapphire, who is "they"

the other odd thing in my mind is that she found her daughter gone, was convinced immediately she was abducted and left her two other kids alone not knowing if any abductor was round the corner, instead of shouting for help, and lets not forget jane tanner was just two doors down and indoors, mrs fenn upstairs, and other couples nearby in flats, red flags

 

[brit1981]

I've always said Madeline was the UK version of JBR and the similarities continue to amaze me...not least the fact that both sets of parents refused to co-operate with LE, and also seemed to have "friends in high places" and seemed to secure special treatment from their governments....I could go on and on.

There is a mountain in circumstantial evidence in both cases which point directly at the parent's involvement, and personally I cannot see how ANYONE can maintain the belief that they are uninvolved once they know the undisputed facts of the cases.

I do not opine based on what I read in a forum or in a newspaper. I fact check. I go to the time and trouble to read the original documents myself, not just decide guilt/innocence based on second hand theories that suit me. Always, the more you read, the more you find out. Your subconcious does the work. You read statements, for example, and pick up discrepancies. You get a lot of the tiny details that eventually go into building a basic sketch of what actually happened.

For example, one question I have never seen a McCann supporter answer satisfactorily is this -

When KM found Madeline gone, why did she run from the apartment screaming "They've taken her"?

As a mother, my first reaction would run from the apartment screaming "Madeline! Madeline!".

The door was unlocked, the bed empty. That is all. My first reaction would be to scream for my missing child, not assume some group abduction. It would be the last thing from any parent's mind. Parents call for their missing children, always.

This did not happen in either case. Why?

No witness has ever said ate said "they've taken her". Kate has always denied it. I always wondered if this was a translation mistake. I do not really know Portuguese, but it is quite similar to Italian which I am fairly good at. One annoying thing for foreigners (or at least for me) is the use of so many irregular verbs and the way people do not use pronouns in everyday speech because the verbs change so much depending on which pronoun would be used. If someone who was not a professional translator helped translate for the police when they arrived, it might have been an easy mistake to use the word for they've taken her instead of someones taken her (as if it was like italian, only the "taken" bit would be used and it would be different for they and someone). Someone's can also often end up being translated into they, as someones can sound like the person is talking about multiple people. It ends up being like chinese whispers. It is just a theory.

But why is it OK to let a child walk to school alone, knowing if someone tried to abduct them they could not defend themselves, but not Ok to leave a toddler alseep in bed whilst you are fifty metres away and check them every half an hour. Lets face it more abductions and accidents occur outside the home than in it?

I will admit I have never seen any circumstantial evidence that made me think they were involved. Apart from anything the time scales are just too small. They would have had a space of less than two hours to arrange everything and then go out to dinner and be seen laughing and joking with friends. If she had died accidently why not admit it, even if they were sedating her (an no evidence of this was ever demonstrated) why not just say she got hold of it herself and drank it (child proof caps, are not that child proof). No-one has ever come up wth a good reason why they would like like this (and whatever the morals of leaving toddlers, when it comes down to it, it was legal so they did not have to fear prosecution)

 

[Donjeta]

Well, maybe she didn't die accidentally but some other way that is definitely not legal anywhere. If they were cold enough parents to leave two and three year olds alone knowing that children of that age are not psychologically ready to be alone but may find themselves feeling abandoned and in considerable distress waking up and crying for their parents and nobody answering for half an hour they might have been cold enough parents to do something else.

JMO but it is not merely the fear of abduction that should tell people that it is not OK to leave toddlers alone. These days there is a lot of information about children's psychological development out there and most of it is unanimous that repeated traumatic experiences of being abandoned like this may scar the child and follow him around for a very long time.

Supposing no one gets abducted, which is usually the case, children who are old enough may feel proud and independent and empowered in being able to move about unaccompanied, and at some point they would have to be given a little of that feeling, once they're old enough, but small toddlers aren't going to feel proud of their ability to cope on their own if they wake up at night, cry for their parents and no one comes. They are going to feel scared, alone and unloved.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Well, maybe she didn't die accidentally but some other way that is definitely not legal anywhere. If they were cold enough parents to leave two and three year olds alone knowing that children of that age are not psychologically ready to be alone but may find themselves feeling abandoned and in considerable distress waking up and crying for their parents and nobody answering for half an hour they might have been cold enough parents to do something else.

JMO but it is not merely the fear of abduction that should tell people that it is not OK to leave toddlers alone. These days there is a lot of information about children's psychological development out there and most of it is unanimous that repeated traumatic experiences of being abandoned like this may scar the child and follow him around for a very long time.

Supposing no one gets abducted, which is usually the case, children who are old enough may feel proud and independent and empowered in being able to move about unaccompanied, and at some point they would have to be given a little of that feeling, once they're old enough, but small toddlers aren't going to feel proud of their ability to cope on their own if they wake up at night, cry for their parents and no one comes. They are going to feel scared, alone and unloved.

This is exactly what had happened, the evening before.

Despite all their complicated routine of checking, listening, etc, KM had no idea her children had woken and cried the previous night, until Madeline asked her at breakfast, why she hadn't come when they did.

Instead of using this as an indicator that perhaps things WEREN'T all hunky dory while mum & dad are out partying, they ignored it and went out anyway.

Just the thought of my babies being alone and scared is enough to make me feel weak at the knees...I most definitely would not be able to go out and leave them a second time...but I'm not Kate or Gerry McCann, who NEEDED tapas.

 

[SapphireSteel]

No witness has ever said ate said "they've taken her".

False.

The first eyewitness account of the frantic moments after Madeleine McCann disappeared can be revealed today.

Nanny Charlotte Pennington confirms that Kate McCanndid scream: "They've taken her, they've taken her!"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-claims-new-nanny-witness.html#ixzz1zLmsHGCU


Kate has always denied it. I always wondered if this was a translation mistake. I do not really know Portuguese, but it is quite similar to Italian which I am fairly good at. One annoying thing for foreigners (or at least for me) is the use of so many irregular verbs and the way people do not use pronouns in everyday speech because the verbs change so much depending on which pronoun would be used. If someone who was not a professional translator helped translate for the police when they arrived, it might have been an easy mistake to use the word for they've taken her instead of someones taken her (as if it was like italian, only the "taken" bit would be used and it would be different for they and someone). Someone's can also often end up being translated into they, as someones can sound like the person is talking about multiple people. It ends up being like chinese whispers. It is just a theory.

But why is it OK to let a child walk to school alone, knowing if someone tried to abduct them they could not defend themselves, but not Ok to leave a toddler alseep in bed whilst you are fifty metres away

It was 120 metres, further, completely obscured from sight...and school age children are not babies, as these children were. The under 5s require special care.

and check them every half an hour. Lets face it more abductions and accidents occur outside the home than in it?

Not for the under 5s, as they are not usually left unsupervised outside the home.

I will admit I have never seen any circumstantial evidence that made me think they were involved. Apart from anything the time scales are just too small.

Not if Madeline died while they were at Tapas...and how long does it take to hide a tiny body, especially as you know all the neighbouring units are unlocked?

They would have had a space of less than two hours to arrange everything and then go out to dinner and be seen laughing and joking with friends. If she had died accidently why not admit it, even if they were sedating her (an no evidence of this was ever demonstrated) why not just say she got hold of it herself and drank it (child proof caps, are not that child proof). No-one has ever come up wth a good reason why they would like like this (and whatever the morals of leaving toddlers, when it comes down to it, it was legal so they did not have to fear prosecution)

Overdosing your own children is illegal, especially if one of them dies. It will also ruin your high flying medical career in a heartbeat Sounds like a motive to me...remember, LE were supposed to be haring off across the countryside in search of random kidnappers, not looking at K & G.

IMO they believed their exalted professional lives would insulate them from suspicion.

 

[Donjeta]

Kate and Gerry McCann have hit back after the leak of a police interview revealed that their daughter Madeleine had asked why she had been left to cry in the night.

The interview transcript was obtained by Spanish television journalist Nacho Abad, who claimed he could not reveal his source.

But Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns, said the statement would have come from within the Portuguese police and launched a blistering attack on their attempts to "smear" the McCanns.

"It is a shameless, brazen and very cack-handed," he told Sky News.

http://news.sky.com/story/596096/fury-over-madeleine-crying-smear

All this fury seems to indicate to me that Gerry and Kate also knew there was something off in their arrangement to leave three toddlers on their own devices.

 

[SapphireSteel]

http://news.sky.com/story/596096/fury-over-madeleine-crying-smear

All this fury seems to indicate to me that Gerry and Kate also knew there was something off in their arrangement to leave three toddlers on their own devices.

It's the same old saying...the best defence is offence.

 

[BritsKate]

I agree with you, toddlers should not be left alone. But it appears that it is not a universal opinion. I think the thing in the McCann case is thta the fact they left the children in this way has been used to imply their guilt in the disappearence. One person (I think Pat brown, but could be thinking of someone else so do nto quote me) said that she may have died accidently, but they all covered it up because they did not want to face charges of neglect for leaving the children. This ignores the points that a) they admitted it straight away and did not try to hide it and b) what they did was not illegal and is done by tens of thousands each year. We may not agree with it, but obviously these resorts provide the service for a reason. It seems odd to me that even after madeleine disappeared people still use them, but I remember hearing that after JonBenet ramsey was murdered the number of children being entered in beauty pagents tripled! Again we might all disagree with putting toddlers in these pagents, but lots of people watch the reality programmes about them. My opinion is that they should be banned.

You mean the service the McCann's did not use?

No such service was utilised so I feel it inappropriate to use that as an argument to minimise their role in leaving 3 toddlers alone. Here's the long and short of it:
If you leave a toddler in a bathtub alone for 30 minutes and said child dies or is injured you can be charged with neglect if not greater offences.
If you leave a toddler in a road alone for 30 minutes and said child dies or is injured you can be charged with neglect if not greater offences.
If you leave a toddler in a shop alone for 30 minutes, leave the store, and said child dies or is injured you can be charged with neglect if not greater offences.
If you leave a toddler unattended in the garden for 30 minutes and they fall into a pool and die or are injured you can be charged with neglect if not greater offences.
If you leave a toddler alone in a car for 30 minutes you can be charged with neglect if not greater offences.

Tens of thousands of parents do not commit these offences though - some, yes - but what's listed is pretty typical common-sensical parenting. :grin: You see an inherent danger for your child and you make adjustments to ensure their safety...the very reason for car seats; baby monitors; GPS on teen's mobiles; cabinet, fridge and toilet locks.

It isn't fair, in my opinion, to compare the parenting of a 10 year old to that of a 2 year old. One would usually not parent differently aged children the same way because the safety measures appropriate for a 12 year old are vastly different than that of a 4 year old. Ultimately our job as parents is to ready our children for the world and their role in society. This is done gradually as they mature. My kiddos, 10 and 12, haven't even been left unattended from that great a distance for 30 minutes. I'm not MOTY either. I make lots of parenting mistakes, usually daily, but it's something I know they, nor I, wouldn't feel comfortable with. How can anyone reasonably expect a toddler to?

 

[brit1981]

The nanny listening service consists of a nanny listening outside the door every half an hour. Thats it. the McCanns did the exact same thing, except they sometimes made visual checks. If using a nanny to listen outside the door, as done in lots of hotels and resorts is OK, then why not the parents themselves. Parents who emply a nanny to listen outside a door every half an hour are not charged with neglect so there is no arguement for saying parents who choose to do the listening themselves should be prosecuted.
And you can compare parenting of children at different ages. The fact is every parent has heard of children aged ten beign abducted on the way to school, or whilst out walking. Yet many parents still, knowing this, knowing their child cannot defend themselves allow their child to walk to school. They are not making the wrong one, or the right one. They are just looking at the risks and making a judgement call. For most it will be fine, but for a tragic few it will result in something going wrong, something they could maybe have prevented. The same with just checking on children every half an hour (which I fully agree is stupid), the parents made a bad judgement call. After Madeleine disappeared I was talking about this with a friend, he thought I was being silly by saying she should not be left alone, he ridiculed the idea that a child might come to harm. I was shocked, but a lot of people are like this. Like I said a huge amount of people are happy to hire strangers off the internet to look after their children, a huge amount use these listening services (even after madeleine disappeared), clever people making stupid choices are not uncommon.

 

[brit1981]

Overdosing your own children is illegal, especially if one of them dies. It will also ruin your high flying medical career in a heartbeat Sounds like a motive to me...remember, LE were supposed to be haring off across the countryside in search of random kidnappers, not looking at K & G.

IMO they believed their exalted professional lives would insulate them from suspicion.

But there has never been a shred of evidence they drugged their children, not one. If one is going to come up with motives without any evidence we could claim anything, and say that is their motive.

Also Portugues laws make sit illegal for anyone involved in a case to talk about it, so the McCanns were told they could face prosecution if they taled to the media about what they had been asked, and told the police etc, yet at the same time someone in the police was passing on information to the press and did not face any sanctions.

 

[Donjeta]

The nanny listening service consists of a nanny listening outside the door every half an hour. Thats it. the McCanns did the exact same thing, except they sometimes made visual checks. If using a nanny to listen outside the door, as done in lots of hotels and resorts is OK, then why not the parents themselves. Parents who emply a nanny to listen outside a door every half an hour are not charged with neglect so there is no arguement for saying parents who choose to do the listening themselves should be prosecuted.
And you can compare parenting of children at different ages. The fact is every parent has heard of children aged ten beign abducted on the way to school, or whilst out walking. Yet many parents still, knowing this, knowing their child cannot defend themselves allow their child to walk to school. They are not making the wrong one, or the right one. They are just looking at the risks and making a judgement call. For most it will be fine, but for a tragic few it will result in something going wrong, something they could maybe have prevented. The same with just checking on children every half an hour (which I fully agree is stupid), the parents made a bad judgement call. After Madeleine disappeared I was talking about this with a friend, he thought I was being silly by saying she should not be left alone, he ridiculed the idea that a child might come to harm. I was shocked, but a lot of people are like this. Like I said a huge amount of people are happy to hire strangers off the internet to look after their children, a huge amount use these listening services (even after madeleine disappeared), clever people making stupid choices are not uncommon.

Is there someone in this discussion who is saying that a nanny listening on the door every 30 minutes is OK and enough supervision to three toddlers?

If you ask me all those parents using those services with tiny children should be prosecuted for child abandonment and the resorts offering those services should be fined for aiding and abetting but that's just me and people don't usually ask me what they should do, the world would be somewhat different if they did.

There are stupid choices and then there are choices that show that you just don't care. If parents are OK with the thought that their baby might be crying alone and uncomforted for 29 minutes in a strange dark hotel room they just don't care.

 

[SapphireSteel]

But there has never been a shred of evidence they drugged their children,

There has never been a shred of evidence of an abuction, either.

not one. If one is going to come up with motives without any evidence we could claim anything, and say that is their motive.

Also Portugues laws make sit illegal for anyone involved in a case to talk about it, so the McCanns were told they could face prosecution if they taled to the media

Then why did Gerry have a blog from day one, and Kate wrote a book?

about what they had been asked, and told the police etc, yet at the same time someone in the police was passing on information to the press and did not face any sanctions.

Is there any evidence of this?

Further, the police have one goal...finding Madeleine and/or the person who caused her to be missing. They do not have the goal of performing for the media. If someone was leaking information, WHY? What is the motive? LE worked around the clock to find Madeline...Kate and Gerry didn't actually move from the sofa, nor call for their missing child, not once.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Is there someone in this discussion who is saying that a nanny listening on the door every 30 minutes is OK and enough supervision to three toddlers?

If you ask me all those parents using those services with tiny children should be prosecuted for child abandonment and the resorts offering those services should be fined for aiding and abetting but that's just me and people don't usually ask me what they should do, the world would be somewhat different if they did.

There are stupid choices and then there are choices that show that you just don't care. If parents are OK with the thought that their baby might be crying alone and uncomforted for 29 minutes in a strange dark hotel room they just don't care.

:goodpost:

All this debate about listening services is detracting from that one main, incredibly important point.

Caring parents would NEVER have done this, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY KNEW THEY HAD CRIED THE EVENING BEFORE.

:banghead:

 

[gord]

accusing the mccanns of bad child care is like accusing Hitler of breaking border controls

They did what they did and they will have to live for ever with the guilt of this . Hindsight is always a great thing. Their child care choices I think everyone agrees were wrong , but that is a world away from a coverup / body disposal etc etc

I always go back to the one key thing in all this - no one not the police , not the thousands of posters have ever come up with an logical believable conclusion on how they hid the body for 3 weeks and then managed to transfer the body to a hire car( under the glare of constant paps , police etc ) and then finaly dispose of the body . Nothing .

I hear of amazing theories of goverment coverup , maddy being doubled for 3 days by one of the other kids

Anyway 5 years it is highly doubtful that the smoking gun will suddenly appear - so it comes down to almost hypothetical arguments .

Maybe one day something will explain this mystery