Why deny?

[JMO8778]

UK,what could LE possibly know about the underwear that has not been made public? it sounds just as Dee said,IMO.

 

[Toltec]

DeeDee249,
Yes maybe it happed that way, but:

This is an assumption you make so your theory remains consistent e.g. LHP stated she saw the size-12's in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer. Patsy stated she placed them into the bathroom underwear drawer for JonBenet to wear.


This is possible, or they were in the house in another room e.g. Patsy's underwear drawer?


OK so what happened to the gift wrapping, was this discovered during any search of the basement?

If there is empty gift wrapping and with Patsy stating she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, but this is contradicted by the investigators, then Patsy's version is not only inconsistent but as the person to wrap the xmas-gifts she is linked directly to the size-12's?

Also:

I reckon the clean size-12's were part of the plan attempting to hide JonBenet's sexual assault.



I disagree with the above, simply because the alleged intruder may have taken the remaining pants as a trophy.

The size-12 underwear are inconsistent on many levels, and unlike the pineapple, we know Patsy is making false statements, what is the percentage in returning forensic evidence that draws attention to the fact that the size-12's were either missed by the police or spirited out of the house, and contradicts Patsy's interview answers?

If the size-12's are missing why not pin it on the intruder who kidnapped and killed JonBenet?

The Ramsey's must know something about the size-12's that the police know but we do not, otherwise why bother returning them?



Why though?


Why did the Ramsey's think removing the size-12's would benefit them, or did the police really miss them altogether?


.

There was an unwrapped gift found in the wine cellar....kicked off to one side. The rest of the presents in the wine cellar were for Burke's birthday.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
OK, one thing that is missing is where the investigators ask Patsy that question, e.g. where are the other 6-pairs? Since they can present the evidence of the empty gift-wrapping from the basement?

I agree with much of what you write except I can see no rationale for removing the size-12's, since they are not going to offer any forensic leads, unless John's fingerprints are all over the container, Patsy's would be unremarkable.

I reckon the size-12's were returned so no claims that any evidence was removed from the house could be levelled at the Ramsey's. Since as you suggest the size-12's should be somewhere in the house.


By returning the size-12's Patsy has highlighted her involvement in the staging, since her statements regarding the size-12's can be shown to be invalid. Without the size-12's their vanishing can be blamed on the kidnapper, similarly with her size-6's. So I am convinced the Ramsey's knew something we dont and they reckoned the police knew it also, since Patsy takes a risk by returning those size-12's it must be outweighed by any evidential advantage to them?


.

Unfortunately, LE gave PR a pass on MANY things. I, too, wish they asked that question. THAT and many others. But their failure to ask does not diminish the liklihood that one of the parents (who were the ONLY ones in the house that night to know of the existance of those panties) unwrapped them and used the Wednesday pair. I have said this many times- I do not think they thought the fact that the panties were a too-big size 12 would ever be noticed by anyone. They were girls' panties. End of story. (or so they thought.)
Why remove the rest of them? In a panic, no doubt, but also because one pair of the set was ON A DEAD CHILD IN THE BASEMENT.
Later on, when they saw that everyone did, indeed, make an issue of the fact that they were a different size than the rest of her panties, and they also realized that PR had admitted to LE that she bought those very same kind of panties IN A LARGER SIZE THAN HER DAUGHTER WORE they had no choice but to turn them over, and say they "finally" found them.
NOW- consider this- if PR had told LE that she bought the panties in a larger size for JBR to "grow into" - it would seem more likely. But to admit they were bought for someone else as a Christmas gift and then say you don't know how they got on your dead daughter- when ONLY you and maybe your husband know they exist- well- THAT is a big red flag that screams WE PUT THOSE PANTIES ON HER.

 

[UKGuy]

Unfortunately, LE gave PR a pass on MANY things. I, too, wish they asked that question. THAT and many others. But their failure to ask does not diminish the liklihood that one of the parents (who were the ONLY ones in the house that night to know of the existance of those panties) unwrapped them and used the Wednesday pair. I have said this many times- I do not think they thought the fact that the panties were a too-big size 12 would ever be noticed by anyone. They were girls' panties. End of story. (or so they thought.)
Why remove the rest of them? In a panic, no doubt, but also because one pair of the set was ON A DEAD CHILD IN THE BASEMENT.
Later on, when they saw that everyone did, indeed, make an issue of the fact that they were a different size than the rest of her panties, and they also realized that PR had admitted to LE that she bought those very same kind of panties IN A LARGER SIZE THAN HER DAUGHTER WORE they had no choice but to turn them over, and say they "finally" found them.
NOW- consider this- if PR had told LE that she bought the panties in a larger size for JBR to "grow into" - it would seem more likely. But to admit they were bought for someone else as a Christmas gift and then say you don't know how they got on your dead daughter- when ONLY you and maybe your husband know they exist- well- THAT is a big red flag that screams WE PUT THOSE PANTIES ON HER.

DeeDee249,
I am not disagreeing with you, only that the Ramsey's had a good defense e.g. the intruder redressed JonBenet and removed the size-6's and remaining size-12's as trophies.

She never said this, as she never said JonBenet changed herself, so they were keeping their testimony for any court case.

NOW- consider this- if PR had told LE that she bought the panties in a larger size for JBR to "grow into" - it would seem more likely. But to admit they were bought for someone else as a Christmas gift and then say you don't know how they got on your dead daughter- when ONLY you and maybe your husband know they exist- well- THAT is a big red flag that screams WE PUT THOSE PANTIES ON HER.

Not only that they exist, but where they were located on the night of her death, imo Patsy's inconsistent answers implicate her in the staging?

 

[UKGuy]

There was an unwrapped gift found in the wine cellar....kicked off to one side. The rest of the presents in the wine cellar were for Burke's birthday.

Toltec,
OK so why was the magic question never asked then? They asked nearly every other one e.g. was Jonbenet wearing underwear when she was undressed for bed? Did Jonbenet change her underwear for the White's party?

Or did they just reckon they would recieve another amnesic reply from Patsy?

 

[DeeDee249]

Toltec,
OK so why was the magic question never asked then? They asked nearly every other one e.g. was Jonbenet wearing underwear when she was undressed for bed? Did Jonbenet change her underwear for the White's party?

Or did they just reckon they would recieve another amnesic reply from Patsy?

This is just one of the many questions they were never asked. It is very frustrating to read those depositions! Who knows why they never asked?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
I am not disagreeing with you, only that the Ramsey's had a good defense e.g. the intruder redressed JonBenet and removed the size-6's and remaining size-12's as trophies.

She never said this, as she never said JonBenet changed herself, so they were keeping their testimony for any court case.


Not only that they exist, but where they were located on the night of her death, imo Patsy's inconsistent answers implicate her in the staging?

The intruder could not have known about the size-12 panties wrapped as a gift right there in the basement. Think about it....do you think an intruder having just sexually assaulted, garotted, caused her to scream, and bashed JBR to death WITH the family sleeping upstairs is now going say "Hey, I wonder if there are any spare little girl's panties here in the basement so I don't have to go all the way upstairs with the family up there...maybe they bought some as Christman gifts - maybe I'll just hang around a bit and unwrap these gifts until I find some new panties..." Silly, isn't it?

PR's answers DO implicate her in the staging, especially with the panties. It is simple, really. PR bough the panties, wrapped the panties, and considering that JR left all the household stuff to PR, including buying and wrapping the gifts, it is likely that PR was the ONLY one who knew about them and where they were.

 

[UKGuy]

The intruder could not have known about the size-12 panties wrapped as a gift right there in the basement. Think about it....do you think an intruder having just sexually assaulted, garotted, caused her to scream, and bashed JBR to death WITH the family sleeping upstairs is now going say "Hey, I wonder if there are any spare little girl's panties here in the basement so I don't have to go all the way upstairs with the family up there...maybe they bought some as Christman gifts - maybe I'll just hang around a bit and unwrap these gifts until I find some new panties..." Silly, isn't it?

PR's answers DO implicate her in the staging, especially with the panties. It is simple, really. PR bough the panties, wrapped the panties, and considering that JR left all the household stuff to PR, including buying and wrapping the gifts, it is likely that PR was the ONLY one who knew about them and where they were.

DeeDee249,
Sure but come a trial, they would mount some defense, and without the size-12's as original productions, the Ramsey's can say whatever they want about the size-12's, since their status on or after the death of JonBenet is unknown to the police.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Sure but come a trial, they would mount some defense, and without the size-12's as original productions, the Ramsey's can say whatever they want about the size-12's, since their status on or after the death of JonBenet is unknown to the police.

.

Well, yes. That's the point of a criminal defense, actually. Any perp can say anything they want in their own defense, even if it is not true. And murder suspects, even when there is NO doubt of their guilt, almost never admit to it.
You can't base the significance of the size 12s or the Rs knowledge of them on what they would say if they went to trial. I'd bet their defense lawyers knew within 24 hours of the discovery of the body that there would never be a trial. Their lawyers went to work on Koby and Hunter right away.
This is interesting- a defense attorney, even if they know or think their client is guilty, can present their clients as innocent, as long as they do not ever ask their clients if they are guilty.
But if they ask, and are told by their clients they are guilty, they cannot put forward their clients as innocent. I believe I read that when asked if they ever asked the Rs if they were involved in the death of their daughter or knew what happened, they said they had NOT. I believe one of them said that "they wouldn't insult their clients by asking that question".
Sounds a lot like JR saying he'd be "insulted" if asked to take a lie detector test.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, yes. That's the point of a criminal defense, actually. Any perp can say anything they want in their own defense, even if it is not true. And murder suspects, even when there is NO doubt of their guilt, almost never admit to it.
You can't base the significance of the size 12s or the Rs knowledge of them on what they would say if they went to trial. I'd bet their defense lawyers knew within 24 hours of the discovery of the body that there would never be a trial. Their lawyers went to work on Koby and Hunter right away.
This is interesting- a defense attorney, even if they know or think their client is guilty, can present their clients as innocent, as long as they do not ever ask their clients if they are guilty.
But if they ask, and are told by their clients they are guilty, they cannot put forward their clients as innocent. I believe I read that when asked if they ever asked the Rs if they were involved in the death of their daughter or knew what happened, they said they had NOT. I believe one of them said that "they wouldn't insult their clients by asking that question".
Sounds a lot like JR saying he'd be "insulted" if asked to take a lie detector test.

DeeDee249,
Yes any defense can be mounted, one of the most common is a third party did it e.g family friends, foreign faction etc.

The importance of the size-12's is where they were located at the time of JonBenet's death, if they had been in police custody following a search of the house, then their status can be validated and used as evidence in court. This was not the case and whatever Patsy stated in her interviews regarding the size-12's is superceded by her potential testimony in court, so what she puts forward as a defense is critical, and in general cannot be contested by the prosecution, since allegedly the remaining size-12's were lying in a Ramsey packing crate?

This is interesting- a defense attorney, even if they know or think their client is guilty, can present their clients as innocent, as long as they do not ever ask their clients if they are guilty.

Sometimes they do ask and obviously the majority of suspects say not guilty. Attorney's will say they are employed to use their legal skills to mount the best defense in aid of their clients, based upon their clients instructions. The latter phrase is the get out clause.

.

 

[Toltec]

There is nothing inconsistent- just confusing maybe. Let me try a bit to make it clearer:
1. JR/PR needed to change the original panties because they likely had significant blood on them, as there was enough bleeding to cause her thighs to need wiping. This was found by the coroner.

My theory is that the panties JonBenet was originally wearing were soiled from earlier on in the day. Remember her soiled play pants found in her bathroom? I believe that is part of the reason she was wiped down...dirty bottom.

2. The identical panties, but in a larger size 12 were right there handy in the basement wrapped as a gift.

Could be....LE found an unwrapped "gift" kicked to one side in the wine cellar. The contents are unknown as LE did not ask Patsy what was in the unwrapped gift.

3. The stager knew where the new panties were, unwrapped them, put the larger ones on JBR AFTER wiping her down. They did not think anyone would notice they were too large.

Only Patsy knew what was in the present....she shopped for it.

4. The rest of the set of panties, AND the plastic container, were removed from the house BEFORE the searches, either the night of the 26th by one of the Rs, or by Aunt P in her "recovery" mission to the house.

By the "investigators" or Aunt Pam.
5. Therefore the police found NO PANTIES, NO PLASTIC CONTAINER. There were NO size 12 panties found in her drawer, though PR said that's where they were. They weren't found because PR was lying, and the panties were never put in there. She was just trying to fabricate a reason for her daughter to be wearing them. She was trying to give the impression that JRB had worn them to the White's, and went to bed with them on. This is impossible, because the autopsy showed her pubic area and thighs had been wiped of blood. Of she'd been wearing the size 12s all day, they would have had much more blood on them then the few drops that was found (which the Rs did not know had happened).

The remaining pairs were later given to LE by the Ramsey investigators.

6. PR did admit buying those larger panties. It would be an impossible coincidence for an intruder to have brought with them the SAME kind of panties in the SAME size 12 which PR admitted she bought for a niece.
7. The Rs sent the panties later because PR knew LE knew she had bought them, so it would be even more suspicious for them to disappear. The fact that there WERE none of those size 12 panties found AFTER PR already admitted she bought them just would point right to her as far as who redressed the body in the larger panties. It was just too suspicious for the Rs to ignore. They HAD to come up with the size 12s eventually.
Because whether they were new and still wrapped as a gift, or whether they had been opened and put in JBR's panty drawer, they should STILL have been in the house, and they were not. So the Rs sent them later, saying "oh, look, we found them." They had them because they were the ones who removed them from the house.
To put it as simply as possible- The Rs had to come up with those panties somehow because they admitted buying them. The fact that LE couldn't find them in the house is suspicious in itself.

The explanation for those panties being on JonBenet are just "rediculous"

 

[DeeDee249]

The explanation for those panties being on JonBenet are just "rediculous"

Let's hear yours. I would never refer to anyone else's explanations or theories as ridiculous, though I may think it. That's just rude. Each of us has theories (maybe more that one) and we all want the same thing. The case solved. If it turned out the perp was the paper boy, I'd be just as glad as if JR admitted they did it.

 

[Toltec]

Let's hear yours. I would never refer to anyone else's explanations or theories as ridiculous, though I may think it. That's just rude. Each of us has theories (maybe more that one) and we all want the same thing. The case solved. If it turned out the perp was the paper boy, I'd be just as glad as if JR admitted they did it.

If you re-read my post...I have inserted comments in between yours....just do not know how to make it look like there are replies in between your post. This "rediculous" explanation was directed at Patsy...not you.