Why didn't Patsy confess on her deathbed?

[killarney rose]

What happened in that house the night after the Ramseys arrived home from the party that was significant enough to cause Patsy never to change out of her clothes to sleep is that one of the Ramseys killed JonBenet.

Yes, that is what I was getting at. It had to be a major event to cause them to have never gone to bed Christmas night. And we know that JonBenet was killed Christmas night.

 

[AuDHD]

i hear ya. but someone killed her. an intruder looks unlikely. so does BR. JR is possible, but several of his early actions needlessly undermined the IDI theory (which the ransom note writer clearly wanted people to think, and which became the ramseys' defense): telling the police the doors were all locked, handing them the notepad with the practice note inside, admitting he was the one who had broken the window and it was months earlier. not what you'd expect if he was the murderer or even involved. also, this is admittedly subjective, but the officers on the scene thought he seemed rested in the morning, and that his reaction to finding JBR's body looked sincere.

PR on the other hand was wearing the same clothes as the night before, and iirc had her hair and makeup already done. more consistent with someone who had been up all night than someone who had slept, gotten up for an early flight, and then discovered a ransom note saying her daughter had been kidnapped. subjectively, she strikes me as far more likely than JR to make the laughable mistake of having a "small foreign faction" actually refer to itself as such. or to have nuanced views on american defense contractors ("we respect your business but not the country that it serves"). i lol trying to picture that coming from al qaeda, or shining path, or the IRA, etc. .... that's before we get to the handwriting and linguistic analysis, fiber evidence, etc., which IMO are not as strong as some people think, but do still add to the case against her.

as hard as it is to imagine, the fact is that parents murdering their children does happen. since becoming a parent, i've found it even harder to imagine violence against a child, but paradoxically easier to see how it happens. kids can be incredibly frustrating. and an adult that doesn't manage their stress well or control their actions can lose it and do the unthinkable. such an adult shouldn't be responsible for children, but they often are anyway. it was the end of a very long day, PR was up late packing for everyone for an early flight the next morning. she needed the kids to do as they're told and not create any problems. and then something happened that set her off. another bedwetting incident, some disobedience about going to bed. something. even with her identity wrapped up in her daughter, i can see an angry outburst that does more harm than intended. followed by an emotional, panicked, nonsensical coverup.

edit: all MOO

This makes so much sense to me actually bc I’ve always found it bizarre that JR signed off on that ransom note. My only explanation was that the note seemed to deliberately point at multiple people to confuse and muddy the waters. Only reason for the uh, length of it & details given that I could muster.
But what if JR only found out about BR/PR accidentally striking her and PR subsequently staging the cover up some time after the 911 call? Whether it was before or after finding the body (which fleet says JR saw in a dark room and called out before turning the light switch on). Maybe he pieced it together as the morning went on, but couldn’t confront PR until much later and by that time, they had committed to the intruder thing and it was full steam ahead. Edit to add: neither of them seemed concerned when the kidnappers didnt call, so john must have known by then.

Then the ME’s found evidence of previous sexual abuse and JR knew that-guilty or innocent of that abuse- he was going to be suspect number one. How could he point the finger at Patsy, a cancer stricken & seemingly doting (if overbearing) mom? The media & public perception would turn on him in an instant. Even if it was her, his safest path forward was to stick together & pin it on an intruder. JMO

 

[gumshoe1]

But what if JR only found out about BR/PR accidentally striking her and PR subsequently staging the cover up some time after the 911 call? Whether it was before or after finding the body (which fleet says JR saw in a dark room and called out before turning the light switch on). Maybe he pieced it together as the morning went on, but couldn’t confront PR until much later and by that time, they had committed to the intruder thing and it was full steam ahead. Edit to add: neither of them seemed concerned when the kidnappers didnt call, so john must have known by then.

The above quote by AuDHD is lead detective Steve Thomas' theory.

Then the ME’s found evidence of previous sexual abuse and JR knew that-guilty or innocent of that abuse- he was going to be suspect number one. How could he point the finger at Patsy, a cancer stricken & seemingly doting (if overbearing) mom? The media & public perception would turn on him in an instant. Even if it was her, his safest path forward was to stick together & pin it on an intruder. JMO

I think that your theory here is probably correct as well. Steve Thomas thinks that JBR was not sexually abused. Steve Thomas thinks that the injuries to JBR's vaginal area was some sort of corporal punishment that Patsy inflicted on JBR because JBR wet the bed.

 

[Lebowski]

Lebowski, your post #14 on this thread makes point after point that I agree with. It is a very pithy post.

However, I disagree with your statement that the officers on the scene thought that John's reaction to finding JBR's body looked sincere. Detective Linda Arndt strongly implied that John's reaction to finding JBR's body caused her to believe that John killed JBR. Arndt said that she became nervous when John found the body, and she counted how many bullets she had, implying that Arndt thought that she might have to shoot John. Why do you think that the officers on the scene thought that John's reaction to finding JBR's body seemed sincere?

i don't remember where i read that, and it's possible i have it wrong. one fun feature of this case is it's hard to know which pieces of information to trust.

note to self to not rely on that particular thing in the future

 

[AuDHD]

The above quote by AuDHD is lead detective Steve Thomas' theory.




I think that your theory here is probably correct as well. Steve Thomas thinks that JBR was not sexually abused. Steve Thomas thinks that the injuries to JBR's vaginal area was some sort of corporal punishment that Patsy inflicted on JBR because JBR wet the bed.

I’ll have to read up on Steve Thomas! thanks!

 

[Lebowski]

This makes so much sense to me actually bc I’ve always found it bizarre that JR signed off on that ransom note. My only explanation was that the note seemed to deliberately point at multiple people to confuse and muddy the waters. Only reason for the uh, length of it & details given that I could muster.
But what if JR only found out about BR/PR accidentally striking her and PR subsequently staging the cover up some time after the 911 call? Whether it was before or after finding the body (which fleet says JR saw in a dark room and called out before turning the light switch on). Maybe he pieced it together as the morning went on, but couldn’t confront PR until much later and by that time, they had committed to the intruder thing and it was full steam ahead. Edit to add: neither of them seemed concerned when the kidnappers didnt call, so john must have known by then.

possible. i lean against the idea of JR learning/realizing the truth while the police were there that day, because of the amount of self-control it would take to hide his reaction in that moment and bottle it up for a channeled released later. not impossible though. and someone was just telling me citing sources they were confident in that JR is a talented liar and good at faking emotions, etc.

i knew about the lack of reaction from either PR or JR to the deadline passing, and that is suspicious about both of them. also, someone around here said JR got agitated later on. the poster interpreted this as showing the timing when he discovered JBR's body and/or the truth of what happened. ... but my thought is: maybe JR didn't necessarily expect the ransom call to come exactly on time, but the later it got, the less sure he was it was coming. that would explain no reaction at the time, followed by increasing agitation later, without assuming JR knew anything.

Then the ME’s found evidence of previous sexual abuse and JR knew that-guilty or innocent of that abuse- he was going to be suspect number one. How could he point the finger at Patsy, a cancer stricken & seemingly doting (if overbearing) mom? The media & public perception would turn on him in an instant. Even if it was her, his safest path forward was to stick together & pin it on an intruder. JMO

boxed in by appearances so he had to stand by her? maybe.

 

[gumshoe1]

I’ll have to read up on Steve Thomas! thanks!

Steve Thomas' book is simply titled JonBenet. It's the best book there is on the JonBenet Ramsey case.

 

[AuDHD]

Steve Thomas' book is simply titled JonBenet. It's the best book there is on the JonBenet Ramsey case.

thanks I’ll check it out! I’ve read a few books on the topic so far:

Who Killed JonBenét Ramsey? by Dr. Cyril Wecht & Charles Bosworth, Jr

Presumed Guilty: An Investigation Into the JonBenet Ramsey Case, the Media, and the Culture of Pornography by Stephen Singular

Can AI solve the case? Jonbenét Ramsey by Dr. Hal Rowan

The JonBenét Ramsey Murder - The Asphyxiator?: With 10 Pillars of Forensic Convergence Without Contradiction, Multidisciplinary Logic Renders Further Doubt Statistically Unsustainable. by Michael Daniels

and lastly,
Foreign Faction - Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? by James Kolar

Kolar’s book was the best of that bunch. I mostly read up on IDI hypotheses so I could make sure I understood all the angles. I couldn’t get past chapter one of the lady’s book where she thinks her ex boyfriend did it. I guess that was my line on IDI theories.

 

[CloudedTruth]

i don't remember where i read that, and it's possible i have it wrong. one fun feature of this case is it's hard to know which pieces of information to trust.

note to self to not rely on that particular thing in the future

When JB's body was found, Det. Arndt was the only LE on the scene. They had left her alone to control the house and everyone in it, and she repeatedly called for back-up which was ignored.

She definitely got some very strong vibes from JR......
“We had a nonverbal exchange that I will never forget. ... And
as we looked at each other, I remember, and I wore a shoulder
holster, tucking my gun right next to me and consciously counting
out the 18 bullets.” When asked why, she replied "because I didn't know if we'd all be alive when people showed up".

“My mind exploded. ... I saw black with thousands of lights,”
Arndt said. “Everything that I noted that morning that stuck out
instantly made sense.”

 

[Lebowski]

ok. ... does she elaborate on the non-verbal exchange? and do you find arndt credible?

 

[Lebowski]

incidentally, i just learned PR didn't get up when JBR's body was found. everyone else ran in to kitchen where FW and JR had brought her up and put her on the floor. at this point, there shouldn't be any way for PR to know JBR isn't alive. if you're a parent who thought their kid was kidnapped and then heard someone shout that they found her in the house, would you not jump to your feet and run in? would you not be shoving everyone else out of the way to come see her? i don't care if you're emotional or exhausted from the stress of the day, your kid is suddenly not kidnapped and possibly OK as far as you know. and yet... she apparently stays in her seat. as if she already knows.

now at first as i'm reading this, i thought "maybe she did get up and people just didn't see her because their attention was on the kitchen and JBR." but apparently two friends then walked back over to her and attended to her on the couch.

 

[AuDHD]

incidentally, i just learned PR didn't get up when JBR's body was found. everyone else ran in to kitchen where FW and JR had brought her up and put her on the floor. at this point, there shouldn't be any way for PR to know JBR isn't alive. if you're a parent who thought their kid was kidnapped and then heard someone shout that they found her in the house, would you not jump to your feet and run in? would you not be shoving everyone else out of the way to come see her? i don't care if you're emotional or exhausted from the stress of the day, your kid is suddenly not kidnapped and possibly OK as far as you know. and yet... she apparently stays in her seat. as if she already knows.

now at first as i'm reading this, i thought "maybe she did get up and people just didn't see her because their attention was on the kitchen and JBR." but apparently two friends then walked back over to her and attended to her on the couch.

I picked that up from Kolar but yeah it’s well documented at this point Patsy stayed in what i believe they called the solarium. When john ran up with JBR in his arms he put her by christmas tree in the adjacent living room and Patsy didn’t budge until friends came to fetch her. She already knew jbr was dead. jmo

 

[887sMtreme]

incidentally, i just learned PR didn't get up when JBR's body was found. everyone else ran in to kitchen where FW and JR had brought her up and put her on the floor. at this point, there shouldn't be any way for PR to know JBR isn't alive. if you're a parent who thought their kid was kidnapped and then heard someone shout that they found her in the house, would you not jump to your feet and run in? would you not be shoving everyone else out of the way to come see her? i don't care if you're emotional or exhausted from the stress of the day, your kid is suddenly not kidnapped and possibly OK as far as you know. and yet... she apparently stays in her seat. as if she already knows.

now at first as i'm reading this, i thought "maybe she did get up and people just didn't see her because their attention was on the kitchen and JBR." but apparently two friends then walked back over to her and attended to her on the couch.

JBR was not brought up from the wine cellar to the kitchen, but to the area at the top of the stairs, near the front door outside the living room. That is where Arndt had the eye contact with JR that so chilled her. Shortly after that, JBR was moved to the living room, near the Christmas tree. Patsy, leaving her nest of friends in the other room, cried out en route to the living room, saw her for the first time there, with the small rug partially covering her. That’s when Patsy threw herself over JBR’s body, incidentally compromising evidence.

 

[gumshoe1]

incidentally, i just learned PR didn't get up when JBR's body was found. everyone else ran in to kitchen where FW and JR had brought her up and put her on the floor. at this point, there shouldn't be any way for PR to know JBR isn't alive. if you're a parent who thought their kid was kidnapped and then heard someone shout that they found her in the house, would you not jump to your feet and run in? would you not be shoving everyone else out of the way to come see her? i don't care if you're emotional or exhausted from the stress of the day, your kid is suddenly not kidnapped and possibly OK as far as you know. and yet... she apparently stays in her seat. as if she already knows.

now at first as i'm reading this, i thought "maybe she did get up and people just didn't see her because their attention was on the kitchen and JBR." but apparently two friends then walked back over to her and attended to her on the couch.

IDI theorists, how do you explain the fact that Patsy kept sitting on the couch when JBR was found instead of running to check on JBR like everyone else did? If IDI, for all Patsy knew, JBR was still alive. Why the heck did Patsy not go check on JBR?

@GRT

@FergusMcDuck