Why I believe that Patsy co-ordinated the staging

[TexMex]

Well, does that mean they didn't do it? I'm trying to be open-minded here.



Well, I'm never one to put down gut instinct, mostly because mine tend to be right. That's not a boast, it's a fact. But I just don't see how anyone stupid enough to camp out in the house hasn't been caught. I mean, from what the FBI said about this case, the intruder would have to be the stupidest home invader who ever lived.



It's actually my mother's theory. Or was, I should say. Old Mum's no longer of this world. But anyway, she always felt that the Ramseys, at one point or another, were out to frame the housekeeper, Mrs. Hoffman-Pugh, who is one of the few people I still held in consideration after my conversion. She'd know all this stuff, right?

Sorry about your Mum. I hope she lived a long and full life.

I think whoever did this was waiting however long it took...ten minutes or ten hours for his little girl to get home.

The housekeeper? I guess they could try to frame her but how would they know whoever they framed (and that decision would have to be very quick if this was an "accident" or "rage" killing) would not have an air-tight alibi?

 

[BBB167893]

old Mum had no regrets. I just never thought I'd lose both parents before I was 30. But that's off the subject.

The housekeeper? I guess they could try to frame her but how would they know whoever they framed (and that decision would have to be very quick if this was an "accident" or "rage" killing) would not have an air-tight alibi?

Who says they DID know? These were desperate people, Tex. And like I said, you can't make sense of the senseless.

But in all seriousness, they knew the woman for a fair amount of time, they knew her family and their habits. And they knew she couldn't afford the kind of legal heavy artillery they could.

 

[LinasK]

My gut says some guy saw this girl, stalked her and the family for some time, did some research on the parents and looked around the house while he was waiting.

But Tex, if they're gonna stalk her, they're not doing it for ransom, molesters/rapists operate differently than killers, and all of the above criminals remove their victims from the house- even David Westerfield. Moreover, the spiderweb on the windowsill in the basement was undisturbed, and there were no footprints in the snow! Also a criminal wouldn't draw little hearts in her palm and lovingly redress her, and would leave more of his DNA than just touch DNA. In contrast, John's fibers from his shirt were in JB's panties. There isn't an innocent explanation for that.

 

[BBB167893]

But Tex, if they're gonna stalk her, they're not doing it for ransom, molesters/rapists operate differently than killers, and all of the above criminals remove their victims from the house- even David Westerfield. Moreover, the spiderweb on the windowsill in the basement was undisturbed, and there were no footprints in the snow! Also a criminal wouldn't draw little hearts in her palm and lovingly redress her, and would leave more of his DNA than just touch DNA. In contrast, John's fibers from his shirt were in JB's panties. There isn't an innocent explanation for that.

We make a good them, eh?

 

[TexMex]

old Mum had no regrets. I just never thought I'd lose both parents before I was 30. But that's off the subject.



Who says they DID know? These were desperate people, Tex. And like I said, you can't make sense of the senseless.

But in all seriousness, they knew the woman for a fair amount of time, they knew her family and their habits. And they knew she couldn't afford the kind of legal heavy artillery they could.

Life is harsh sometimes, I'm sorry about that. I still rely on my Dad for advice and dread the day my folks won't be here.

I'm still not sure about framing anybody.

IMO an intruder did this...what if the intruder wrote the note trying to frame the Ramseys?

BRB...Jack and Coke time

 

[BBB167893]

I'm more of Russian vodka man myself.

No I always knew I'd have to bury my parents. But why so soon?

I'm still not sure about framing anybody.

Well, I'm just spitballing anyway.

IMO an intruder did this...what if the intruder wrote the note trying to frame the Ramseys?

I've heard that postulated, but I don't buy it, and let me explain why:

Occam's Razor. When two theories seek to explain the same event, the simplest one is most likely right. And it's much easier to iamgine the Ramseys staging a scene to look like an intruder than intruder staging it to look the like Ramseys staged an intruder. You see what I mean? You're asking me to believe that the intruder deliberately pointed at themself. Stupid is the only word to describe such a person.

 

[TexMex]

But Tex, if they're gonna stalk her, they're not doing it for ransom, molesters/rapists operate differently than killers, and all of the above criminals remove their victims from the house- even David Westerfield. Moreover, the spiderweb on the windowsill in the basement was undisturbed, and there were no footprints in the snow! Also a criminal wouldn't draw little hearts in her palm and lovingly redress her, and would leave more of his DNA than just touch DNA. In contrast, John's fibers from his shirt were in JB's panties. There isn't an innocent explanation for that.

Hey again Linda

I think the stalking was to get info on the family and their habits in preparation of getting their daughter to molest, not for any ransom. IMO perhaps the note was written to scare the parents sorta: "I've been watching you, know where you're from, where you work and now I have your kid." JMO, but I don't think this person wanted to kill JB right away. Like Westerfield he had other plans. My guess is JB did something (kicked him?, made some noise?) and he got mad/scared and hit her, couldn't very well leave the home carrying a dead girl so took her downstairs where he strangled her and molested her then left.

The snow;

Snow on the Ground

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The+House

What Police Reported. Sergeant Paul Reichenbach had arrived at 6:45 AM and searched the outside of the house. He reported no footprints were found in the crusty/frosty snow which covered "much of the grass" (but the brick walkways were clear of snow) (Schiller 1999a:57). Many view this as evidence there could not have been an intruder.

However:

Crime Scene Photos. But it was later reported "In fact, police photographs taken before 9 a.m. the morning of JonBenet's death show much of the perimeter of the house, including walkways, free of snow." Photo 1 Photo 2.
What Media Reported. Newsweek reported that "there was only patchy snow on the property. JonBenet had ridden her Christmas present, a bike, on the backyard patio the day before" (Glick et al. 1998).

What Judge Carnes Concluded. However, "contrary to media reports that had discredited an intruder theory, based on the lack of a "footprint in the snow," there was no snow covering the sidewalks and walkways to defendants' home on the morning of December 26, 1996. (SMF P 139; PSMF P 139.) Hence, a person walking along these paths would have left no footprints" (Carnes 2003:90).

Precipitation Data. Internet poster Braveheart has done the most careful work in examining the temperature and precipitation data, concluding that one cannot rule out an intruder based on this evidence. Meteorologist Katrina Voss has reached a similar conclusion.

same link spiderweb:


Whether the observed web was attached "matters" only if the web was observed early enough that it could not have been spun during the morning of December 26.

Regardless of when the web was observed, Detectives Everett and Wickman disagree with Detective Idler about whether the web was attached to the grate; absent a photograph, this conflicting eyewitness testimony would appear to be unresolvable.

 

[TexMex]

I'm more of Russian vodka man myself.

No I always knew I'd have to bury my parents. But why so soon?



Well, I'm just spitballing anyway.



I've heard that postulated, but I don't buy it, and let me explain why:

Occam's Razor. When two theories seek to explain the same event, the simplest one is most likely right. And it's much easier to iamgine the Ramseys staging a scene to look like an intruder than intruder staging it to look the like Ramseys staged an intruder. You see what I mean? You're asking me to believe that the intruder deliberately pointed at themself. Stupid is the only word to describe such a person.

Haha.

No I don't really think it was to frame the parents, IMO it was to let them know he'd been watching them, to scare them. JMO

Not so fond of vodka, Dave..

Like tequila?

 

[BBB167893]

I got nothing against tequila.

I found that post I told you about!

 

[TexMex]

I got nothing against tequila.

I found that post I told you about!

LOL

Link it up!

 

[BBB167893]

I put it on the "Ramseys are cleared thread." But I feel I should warn you, it's somewhat involved, and I was not at my best when I posted it, so bear with me.

 

[azwriter]

Hi AZ

IMO if the Ramseys were (one or both) the authors of the note they would have demanded millions and millions for the return of their future Miss America. JMO but the 118K figure seems to be some sort of taunting...like I know you...I've been watching you sort of thing. Why would her parents demand a sum they could write a personal check for from their bank account?

TexMex,
You have to look at the three pages Patsy supossedly found on the step not as a ransom note but as a blueprint to a cover up. It was written mainly as a way to explain to authorities why their daughter was missing. Asking for 118K was a clue the Ramseys left for the cops. By using that amount, they were pointing the authorities toward someone who knew the amount of John's bonus as a suspect.
Ultimately, the Ramseys knew they would never be paying any amount of ransom.
jmo

 

[TexMex]

TexMex,
You have to look at the three pages Patsy supossedly found on the step not as a ransom note but as a blueprint to a cover up. It was written mainly as a way to explain to authorities why their daughter was missing. Asking for 118K was a clue the Ramseys left for the cops. By using that amount, they were pointing the authorities toward someone who knew the amount of John's bonus as a suspect.
Ultimately, the Ramseys knew they would never be paying any amount of ransom.
jmo

Hi again AZ

I'm thinking if the couple has somehow killed this girl, they say 'OK, we write a ransom note'....not 'let's write a note and put in clues to throw off LE. Nobody that is that panicked in such an unbelievable nightmare (you have just killed a daughter O.M.G) is thinking that far ahead. Why would they give police anymore info than "We have your daughter, we will call with our demands. Don't call the police."? LE could easily track down people with that kind of knowledge...what if they had alibis.

JMO

 

[Meyahna]

My prob with John Ramsey's implication is that I can't imagine anyone on the Earth writing about themselves "don't try to grow a brain". I really feel he is innocent. And Burke, this poor Burke, of course he was just a kid, I find it very upsetting all the insinuations who are made about him. I just think poor kid, that's very heavy to have to be the victim of such accusations for someone of his age and yet it started earlier.

 

[Ames]

Exactly Ames. A kidnapping is done primary for the money, right?
So within this ransom note there is all this instructions for how to prepare the money but the kidnapper does not make it clear when the child will be exchanged for the money. The only instuctions we see is "we will call you tomorrow." Without any date or time reference on the note, "tomorrow" is a useless instruction. Which tomorrow? Dec. 26 or Dec. 27. Only the author of the note knows which tomorrow is correct. The Ramsey's immediately considered tomorrow to be the day they found the note. Why, since they found the note on Dec. 26, didn't they consider "tomorrow" to be Dec. 27. Because they knew when the note was written.
jmo

Exactly!

 

[Ames]

Hi AZ

IMO if the Ramseys were (one or both) the authors of the note they would have demanded millions and millions for the return of their future Miss America. JMO but the 118K figure seems to be some sort of taunting...like I know you...I've been watching you sort of thing. Why would her parents demand a sum they could write a personal check for from their bank account?

To make it look like someone that worked with John, and knew his bonus amount...killed their daughter. Let me ask you this...why wouldn't a REAL intruder ask for millions....why the very odd amount of $118,000.00? John Ramsey's bonus for that year, was a little over that amount...$118 something. I think that it done for two reasons...to make it look like a jealous co-worker....AND because its the first amount that a paniky Patsy thought of.

 

[TexMex]

To make it look like someone that worked with John, and knew his bonus amount...killed their daughter. Let me ask you this...why wouldn't a REAL intruder ask for millions....why the very odd amount of $118,000.00? John Ramsey's bonus for that year, was a little over that amount...$118 something. I think that it done for two reasons...to make it look like a jealous co-worker....AND because its the first amount that a paniky Patsy thought of.

Hi Ames

JMO but if I were the Ramseys writing a ransom note I would keep it simple

"We have her, pay us XX million, don't call cops". Why put an amount only a couple of people in the company (who may have air tight alibis--it IS Christmas afterall) know.

If I were some stalker/sex predator I might write some long note letting the parents know I've been in your home, I know personal things about you...

Again, JMO

 

[angelwngs]

Hi Ames

JMO but if I were the Ramseys writing a ransom note I would keep it simple

"We have her, pay us XX million, don't call cops". Why put an amount only a couple of people in the company (who may have air tight alibis--it IS Christmas afterall) know.

If I were some stalker/sex predator I might write some long note letting the parents know I've been in your home, I know personal things about you...

Again, JMO

Hi TexMex,
You know, until I was able to definatively answer the many "Why" questions, I was unable to see through the dense fog of this case and conclusively come to terms with the probability that PR was deeply 'involved', IMO.

An intruder, sexual sadist, pedo, kidnapper, murderer could only be fictionally combined and created in the mind of a seriously warped individual, attempting to cover their own tracks and cast the web of suspicion on others. There was never any genuine combination of all of those descriptions involved in the murder of JBR.

There were only two possibilities:

1) someone who knew and hated the Ramsey family to the ultimate extreme and intended to make them continue to pay for whatever pain they had created forever...

2) someone or more than one person within the home/immediate family

Add the evidence and facts of the crime scene and there was no place possible for me to go for answers except within the walls of the Boulder home.

Number two was my only logical, sane conclusion.

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames

JMO but if I were the Ramseys writing a ransom note I would keep it simple

"We have her, pay us XX million, don't call cops". Why put an amount only a couple of people in the company (who may have air tight alibis--it IS Christmas afterall) know.

If I were some stalker/sex predator I might write some long note letting the parents know I've been in your home, I know personal things about you...

Again, JMO

Hi there!

I think that a REAL RN note would have said.."We have her, Pay us XX million, don't call cops". Somebody that is panicky, and needs to try and point AWAY from themself as much as possible...would write a rambling almost three page RN. Where else....in the history of kidnappings (or UNkidnappings in THIS case) have you EVER heard of a ransom note being left that was almost three pages long?? Where else...in the history of kidnappings, have you ever heard of a RN note being left...but, the perp forgetting to take the person/body with them?? I also believe that the 118,000.00 was used, because it was an amount that John could have easily withdrawn, if it had of came down to that...you, know...to keep up appearances. A REAL kidnapper, would have asked for WAY more than that. And what about the Pineapple....even a lawyer on the Ramsey's side..has called that the..."big bugaboo". It cannot be explained. She ate that pineapple after she arrived home...Patsy's prints were on the bowl...but, YET...they say that she was asleep when they got home. Lets not forget the fact that Burke AT FIRST....said that JB was AWAKE and helped to carry in presents...when they arrived home...and then he said that he had been wrong, that she was actually sleeping? I don't know about you, but....I don't think that I would get "sleeping"...and "awake helping to carry in presents", confused. Fleet said that when he looked into the WC the first time, he saw NOTHING. But, then John disappears for a couple of hours, his absence has YET to be explained....and then...like a miracle...she all the sudden appears in the WC, when he goes down to look. He went right to her. IMO...the body was hidden, and he got tired of the keystone cops trying to find her, so her "found" her for them, after placing her body in full view. He had nothing to worry about...because he and Patsy had their story all figured out, complete with fake RN. Even the investigators said that it was a staged crime scene and the note was a fake.

 

[azwriter]

Hi Ames

JMO but if I were the Ramseys writing a ransom note I would keep it simple

"We have her, pay us XX million, don't call cops". Why put an amount only a couple of people in the company (who may have air tight alibis--it IS Christmas afterall) know.

If I were some stalker/sex predator I might write some long note letting the parents know I've been in your home, I know personal things about you...

Again, JMO

Hi Tex Mex -
If you were the Ramseys and had killed your daughter in an accident or on purpose I would assume you would do your best to cover up and point LE in other directions. It would not matter who had alibies - the main goal would be to keep the suspicion away from yourself. When a murder or suspicious death is discovered the cops immediately focus on those closest to the victim and work out from there.
Regardless of the amount of grief and shock the couple felt, the matter at hand was to explain why and how their daughter was dead in the basement without spelling it out.
This War & Peace of ransom notes piles one clue on top of another in order to keep officials from suspecting the parents, two of three know persons in the house that night with JonBenet.
A serious kidnapper would need a simple, to-the-point note. Their business is to exchange child for cash.
The business in this three- page ransom note points to a throwing everything out there in order to direct officials away from the family.
JMO