Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[DeeDee249]

There were no photos of JBR in rigor available to the public, at least not that I'm aware of.
I was referring to the depiction of her with her arms straight and over her head. That is not representative of decorticate or decerebrate posturing.

The only photo I have seen is the one of her lying on the living room rug with bagged hands. I posted the link before. Her arms are bent at the elbow. The image (drawing) of JB we have all seen was probably drawn from description, not by someone who was actually looking at her because NO crime scene photos or drawings were ever done of her as she lay on the wineceller floor. Photos were not taken till she was brought up and laid on the living room rug.

In other photos, her hands and arms are shown on the autopsy table before removal of clothing. In those photos, taken more than 30 hours after death, her arms, hands and fingers are flaccid again.

 

[MurriFlower]

There were no photos of JBR in rigor available to the public, at least not that I'm aware of.
I was referring to the depiction of her with her arms straight and over her head. That is not representative of decorticate or decerebrate posturing.

DD has stated that this photo

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse-x.jpg

was taken while JBR was at the house, on the livingroom rug.

Are you telling me that is not correct??

 

[MurriFlower]

I don't agree that the blanket was secured with duct tape. For one, there was no duct tape other than the one small piece found that had been on her mouth. This is something that IDI points out repeatedly (that there was no other duct tape, specifically-any remaining roll). Then, there is the fact that FW would have also seen this duct tape on the blanket, and actually JR never mentioned seeing the blanket secured in this way. If JR brought her up without the blanket, and the blanket was left behind in the wineceller, the duct tape would have to be there too. And then the blanket would have had residue from the tape.
She didn't struggle after she was wrapped in the blanket because she was already dead.

Well I dunno DD, this is what the evidence says. What you think may be something else entirely.

http://www.acandyrose.com/149blanket-x.gif

Note: Photo shows duct tape on blanket as "silver" in color." John Ramsey "said he removed "black" duct tape from JonBenet's mouth.

Urine stains were on the anterior (front) of the longjohns and panties- she was on her stomach when she voided her bladder that last time, most likely at death. Yet, she was on her back when found wrapped in the blanket. No corresponding urine was found on the blanket. There were urine stains on the basement carpet. I feel she died there, and the position of the garrote indicates it was tightened from behind as she lay on her stomach. That is when her bladder released. Then the blanket was pulled from the dryer (with the pink nylon nightie stuck to it), the blanket laid on the WC floor and JB laid on the blanket, which was pulled up around her torso, with her head and lower legs exposed.

Well, the blanket was only wrapped around her chest and as far as I can see and was losely wrapped around her legs later as JR said he found her. It was not at the time she was molested on lower half and this was so her longjohns could be removed. She was apparently on her stomach when killed. No arguments from me there. I feel she was probably cradled after death in someone's arms and then subsequently placed on the floor with the blanket around her.

 

[cynic]

The only photo I have seen is the one of her lying on the living room rug with bagged hands. I posted the link before. Her arms are bent at the elbow. The image (drawing) of JB we have all seen was probably drawn from description, not by someone who was actually looking at her because NO crime scene photos or drawings were ever done of her as she lay on the wineceller floor. Photos were not taken till she was brought up and laid on the living room rug.

In other photos, her hands and arms are shown on the autopsy table before removal of clothing. In those photos, taken more than 30 hours after death, her arms, hands and fingers are flaccid again.

I've seen that one before, but it seems to be at odds with verbal descriptions of both her arms over her head. It is possible that that photo was shot after rigor, regardless, it is not indicative of decorticate or decerebrate posturing.

John Ramsey was carrying a young qirl in his arms. Both arms of the girl were raised above her head. There appeared to be a string hanging from the girl's right wrist. The girl's lips were blue; she appeared to have livor mortis on her back side of her body; she had rigor mortis; she was not breathing. JonBenet was dressed in a light colored long-sleeved turtleneck and light-colored pants (similar to pajama bottoms). John Ramsey placed the girl onto the floor, inside the front door. The girl was identified by John Ramsey as being JonBenet. JonBenet was not breathing; her body was cool to the touch; she had a white cloth strung around her neck similar to the cloth string around her wrist; there was a red circular mark in the front of her neck about the size of a quarter, at the base of her throat; she had an odor of decay to her, she had dried mucous from one of her nostrils.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jonaff3.htm

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I've seen that one before, but it seems to be at odds with verbal descriptions of both her arms over her head. It is possible that that photo was shot after rigor, regardless, it is not indicitivative of decorticate or decerebrate posturing.

John Ramsey was carrying a young qirl in his arms. Both arms of the girl were raised above her head. There appeared to be a string hanging from the girl's right wrist. The girl's lips were blue; she appeared to have livor mortis on her back side of her body; she had rigor mortis; she was not breathing. JonBenet was dressed in a light colored long-sleeved turtleneck and light-colored pants (similar to pajama bottoms). John Ramsey placed the girl onto the floor, inside the front door. The girl was identified by John Ramsey as being JonBenet. JonBenet was not breathing; her body was cool to the touch; she had a white cloth strung around her neck similar to the cloth string around her wrist; there was a red circular mark in the front of her neck about the size of a quarter, at the base of her throat; she had an odor of decay to her, she had dried mucous from one of her nostrils.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jonaff3.htmhttp://extras.denverpost.com/news/jonaff3.htm

There's no such word as 'indicitivative.'

 

[cynic]

Note: Photo shows duct tape on blanket as "silver" in color." John Ramsey "said he removed "black" duct tape from JonBenet's mouth.

That would be the sticky side of the tape.

 

[cynic]

There's no such word as 'indicitivative.'

Not my fisrt typo, probably not the last.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not my fisrt typo, probably not the last.

Eeeoorrrr eeeeoooorrr eeeeoooorrrr!!

Pull over typist.

Copped again by the spell police I see.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Yes, restrained definately. Yes, deliberately. Just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You and your nickels.

You and your oranges.

You and your glib responses.

(Chuck in a couple of ducks and you're all done)

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[cynic]

Eeeoorrrr eeeeoooorrr eeeeoooorrrr!!

Pull over typist.

Copped again by the spell police I see.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe

 

[MurriFlower]

That would be the sticky side of the tape.

No, I thought there were two types of tape. There's a silver Duct tape which I guess was what was on the blanket. I don't think the colour changes depending on whether it's the sticky side or not.

I believe the black tape on her mouth was a cloth tape, probably more correctly referred to as "Gaffer Tape".

If anyone else has actual fact on this and not just their own opinion, I'd be interested to know.

 

[cynic]

No, I thought there were two types of tape. There's a silver Duct tape which I guess was what was on the blanket. I don't think the colour changes depending on whether it's the sticky side or not.

I believe the black tape on her mouth was a cloth tape, probably more correctly referred to as "Gaffer Tape".

If anyone else has actual fact on this and not just their own opinion, I'd be interested to know.

Black duct tape is silver on the sticky side.

 

[MurriFlower]

Black duct tape is silver on the sticky side.

It was black cloth (Gaffer) tape.

 

[cynic]

It was black cloth (Gaffer) tape.

Every account I"ve ever read has called it duct tape, and in the USA every roll of duct tape i've seen is always siver/grey on the sticky side.

 

[MurriFlower]

Every account I"ve ever read has called it duct tape, and in the USA every roll of duct tape i've seen is always siver/grey on the sticky side.

"24 LOU SMIT: Talk about the tape?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a piece of fairly

0166

1 wide black tape, which I immediately took off. Her

2 lips were blue.

3 LOU SMIT: Where were you standing when

4 you

5 did that, John?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was, she was like right

7 there and I was right here.

8 LOU SMIT: So you hadn't gone into the wine

9 cellar, you were still on the north side of her at

10 that point?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember

13 if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct

15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But

16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It

17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought."

 

[cynic]

25 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a piece of fairly

0166

1 wide black tape, which I immediately took off. Her

2 lips were blue.

3 LOU SMIT: Where were you standing when

4 you

5 did that, John?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was, she was like right

7 there and I was right here.

8 LOU SMIT: So you hadn't gone into the wine

9 cellar, you were still on the north side of her at

10 that point?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember

13 if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct

15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But

16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It

17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought."

I guess I should have clarified my statement. I’ve never heard of anyone not in the category of evasive weasel call it anything but black duct tape.
He does say that it was “kind of white, black.”
Exactly, black on the non-sticky side and “white” on the sticky side.
Here are some pics of my grey and black duct tape:

I’m glad you brought this up, though. Here we have JR trying to act confused about something that probably everyone else would immediately identify as black duct tape.
He is simply following a pattern, however.
Act confused, say you don’t remember, deny, and by all means, implicate someone, anyone, if you can.

But again, can you remember buying any duct tape anywhere in town?
JOHN RAMSEY: I, I can't certainly can't remember, and if I would have bought duct tape I think it would have been gray.

JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember for sure, but Fleet had -- when we got, went up to get our boat ready for this Mackinaw, Mackinaw race was a 300-mile race, Fleet had some special tapes, I remember white tape. And possibly I remember black duct tape. The only kind of duct tape I have ever seen a gray.

The reality:

"In the Bedroom of JonBenet, I stood looking at the formal portrait in the ornate gold frame above her dresser, gripped by a haunting feeling that she wanted me to look harder. Later, strips of black duct tape similar to what had been taped over her mouth were discovered on the back of that picture."
ST Page 73

"Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
ST Page 29

"By mid-February the FBI and the CBI forensics technicians had concluded part of their fingerprint typing and fiber analysis. CBI told the Boulder police that no prints had been found on the black duct tape that John Ramsey said he removed from his daughter's mouth and none were found on the broken artist's paintbrush used to make the "garrote" found around JonBenet's neck."
PMPT Page 239

Among the items on Patsy’s December 9 receipt was an item from builder’s hardware. The price was $1.99. On the December 2 slip there was an item from the garden department. It was $1.99. Duct tape also sold for $1.99. We had no way of knowing what she bought.
ST Page 136

Originally we hoped to prove the black duct tape was from the same pieces found on the back of several portraits in the house.By determining the manufacturer, we might be able to find where it was sold and then track it back to the Ramsey house. We already thought that Patsy might have purchased a roll of such tape from McGuckin’s.
The FBI lab said that both tape samples, from the mouth and the pictures, were a low grade and of low quality, possibly the Shufford Mills model PC-600, but they wouldn’t call it a match
By September 1997 Detective Gosage and I visited the Shufford Mills factory in Hickory, North Carolina and learned that the duct tape was made in small quanties. In fact it only comprised 0.4 percent of the company’s product. We determined that it was sold at McGuckin’s
Shufford Mills gave us various tapes for testing, the dates when changes were made in yarn and scrim counts, recipies for various adhesives, and the various production periods, all of which we sent back to the FBI. In November 1997 the lab said the pieces of tape came from different production runs and had different yarn counts. Same brand, same type, different production run
ST pages 281-282


More examples of JR in action:

JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why
a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal for a Kleenex box.
LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it
came from, but that's now it aught to be.
MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's
not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls.

… if you can, to tell me what you see there?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like a MAG like kind of flashlight there. But that looks like maybe a plane or (INAUDIBLE) or something.
LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight that you have or does --
JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it could have been the same one.
LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the flashlight?
JOHN RAMSEY: No.
LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight appear to be here?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen counter.
16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got there?
JOHN RAMSEY: No.
LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.

LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen cord like that before?
JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh. Well like this no, this looks like drawstring cord that you find in a coat jacket. There was some laying on a driveway up in Michigan, some drawstring cord, and it was –
LOU SMIT: Is that like the cord?
JOHN RAMSEY: It's not quite this fat. It's a little thinner. But it's this woven.

JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple, but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and I can't imagine that the kids would have something like that at any time. Certainly not with iced tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah. that would not be like us to leave that. Certainly not leaving the next morning on a trip, to leave it like that, out.
That's a big bowl, whatever it is, if it's pineapple.
MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag in the glass?
JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea,
I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if JonBenet did, if she did.I mean, even for someone who's there and to getout that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.

 

[MurriFlower]

I guess I should have clarified my statement. I’ve never heard of anyone not in the category of evasive weasel call it anything but black duct tape.
He does say that it was “kind of white, black.”
Exactly, black on the non-sticky side and “white” on the sticky side.
Here are some pics of my grey and black duct tape:

I’m glad you brought this up, though. Here we have JR trying to act confused about something that probably everyone else would immediately identify as black duct tape.
He is simply following a pattern, however.
Act confused, say you don’t remember, deny, and by all means, implicate someone, anyone, if you can.

But again, can you remember buying any duct tape anywhere in town?
JOHN RAMSEY: I, I can't certainly can't remember, and if I would have bought duct tape I think it would have been gray.

JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember for sure, but Fleet had -- when we got, went up to get our boat ready for this Mackinaw, Mackinaw race was a 300-mile race, Fleet had some special tapes, I remember white tape. And possibly I remember black duct tape. The only kind of duct tape I have ever seen a gray.

The reality:

"In the Bedroom of JonBenet, I stood looking at the formal portrait in the ornate gold frame above her dresser, gripped by a haunting feeling that she wanted me to look harder. Later, strips of black duct tape similar to what had been taped over her mouth were discovered on the back of that picture."
ST Page 73

"Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
ST Page 29

"By mid-February the FBI and the CBI forensics technicians had concluded part of their fingerprint typing and fiber analysis. CBI told the Boulder police that no prints had been found on the black duct tape that John Ramsey said he removed from his daughter's mouth and none were found on the broken artist's paintbrush used to make the "garrote" found around JonBenet's neck."
PMPT Page 239

Among the items on Patsy’s December 9 receipt was an item from builder’s hardware. The price was $1.99. On the December 2 slip there was an item from the garden department. It was $1.99. Duct tape also sold for $1.99. We had no way of knowing what she bought.
ST Page 136

Originally we hoped to prove the black duct tape was from the same pieces found on the back of several portraits in the house.By determining the manufacturer, we might be able to find where it was sold and then track it back to the Ramsey house. We already thought that Patsy might have purchased a roll of such tape from McGuckin’s.
The FBI lab said that both tape samples, from the mouth and the pictures, were a low grade and of low quality, possibly the Shufford Mills model PC-600, but they wouldn’t call it a match
By September 1997 Detective Gosage and I visited the Shufford Mills factory in Hickory, North Carolina and learned that the duct tape was made in small quanties. In fact it only comprised 0.4 percent of the company’s product. We determined that it was sold at McGuckin’s
Shufford Mills gave us various tapes for testing, the dates when changes were made in yarn and scrim counts, recipies for various adhesives, and the various production periods, all of which we sent back to the FBI. In November 1997 the lab said the pieces of tape came from different production runs and had different yarn counts. Same brand, same type, different production run
ST pages 281-282


More examples of JR in action:

JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why
a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal for a Kleenex box.
LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it
came from, but that's now it aught to be.
MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's
not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls.

… if you can, to tell me what you see there?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like a MAG like kind of flashlight there. But that looks like maybe a plane or (INAUDIBLE) or something.
LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight that you have or does --
JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it could have been the same one.
LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the flashlight?
JOHN RAMSEY: No.
LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight appear to be here?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen counter.
16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got there?
JOHN RAMSEY: No.
LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.

LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen cord like that before?
JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-uh. Well like this no, this looks like drawstring cord that you find in a coat jacket. There was some laying on a driveway up in Michigan, some drawstring cord, and it was –
LOU SMIT: Is that like the cord?
JOHN RAMSEY: It's not quite this fat. It's a little thinner. But it's this woven.

JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple, but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and I can't imagine that the kids would have something like that at any time. Certainly not with iced tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah. that would not be like us to leave that. Certainly not leaving the next morning on a trip, to leave it like that, out.
That's a big bowl, whatever it is, if it's pineapple.
MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag in the glass?
JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea,
I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if JonBenet did, if she did.I mean, even for someone who's there and to getout that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.

I think the weasel you are referring to was the typist. Anyone not trying to confuse the issue would automatically assume the 'white black tape' was incorrectly typed and should have been 'wide black tape'. But no matter, the Rs get blamed for the poor transcription skills of the BPD as well!!

The tape on her mouth was black cloth (gaffer tape), no argument there.

The tape on the blanket was (according to ACR) silver duct tape.

This is not a story I made up. If it's incorrect, then blame whoever posted it there.

Here is the picture on ACR of the blanket with the tape still on it. It does look very grey me and it appears to be sticky side down. http://www.acandyrose.com/149blanket.jpg

 

[cynic]

I think the weasel you are referring to was the typist. Anyone not trying to confuse the issue would automatically assume the 'white black tape' was incorrectly typed and should have been 'wide black tape'. But no matter, the Rs get blamed for the poor transcription skills of the BPD as well!!

The tape on her mouth was black cloth (gaffer tape), no argument there.

The tape on the blanket was (according to ACR) silver duct tape.

This is not a story I made up. If it's incorrect, then blame whoever posted it there.

Any depiction of anything other than black duct tape would indeed be incorrect.
There was only ever the one piece of tape found. It was removed by JR and eventually photographed sticky side up. (And the weasel is JR, as he tried once again to distance himself from any piece of evidence he was questioned about.)

"Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
ST Page 29

 

[MurriFlower]

Any depiction of anything other than black duct tape would indeed be incorrect.
There was only ever the one piece of tape found. It was removed by JR and eventually photographed sticky side up. (And the weasel is JR, as he tried once again to distance himself from any piece of evidence he was questioned about.)

"Earlier when White had opened that same door, he had been unable to see anything in the stygian darkness. John Ramsey was kneeling beside his daughter, feeling her ashen face. A piece of black duct tape lay on the blanket, and a long cord was attached to her right wrist. Nearby was a pink nightgown. White, who had never before touched a dead person, felt JonBenet's cold ankle, turned, and ran for help. John Ramsey picked up his daughter, who had been carefully wrapped, papoose-like, in a white blanket, and followed.
ST Page 29

Here is the picture on ACR of the blanket with the tape still on it. It does look very grey me and it appears to be sticky side down. http://www.acandyrose.com/149blanket.jpg

 

[cynic]

Here is the picture on ACR of the blanket with the tape still on it. It does look very grey me and it appears to be sticky side down. http://www.acandyrose.com/149blanket.jpg

There is no question that the tape on the blanket is the black duct tape that covered JBR’s mouth.

The duct tape depicted on this picture, you can see it actually on the blanket that was on the floor of the wine cellar. This is a photograph taken by the Boulder Police Department at the crime scene of the blanket, the white blanket lying on the floor of the wine cellar.
Adhering to this blanket is a piece of duct tape. John Ramsey stated that, when he went down to the basement and found his daughter, that she had duct tape on her mouth. He said he took it, and he took it off of her mouth. He also said that he took the ligature that was on her wrist and removed it, and then he took her upstairs.
-Lou Smit deposition