GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Zuri]

Here's a great article on psychopathy and empathy and brain imaging, etc, from a doctor working with a group who've spent two decades studying it all:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...nside-the-mind-psychopath-empathic-not-always

Really worth a read, just for general interest. The author makes it all very approachable for us laypersons.

This was a fascinating read. Thank you! :seeya:
So how do we fix this lack of empathy in kids? Would this be considered a personality disorder?

 

[Sonya610]

Here's a great article on psychopathy and empathy and brain imaging, etc, from a doctor working with a group who've spent two decades studying it all:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...nside-the-mind-psychopath-empathic-not-always

Really worth a read, just for general interest. The author makes it all very approachable for us laypersons.

That is a great article. From my experience yes...psychopaths/sociopaths CAN empathize and often DO. Not just to lure victims but when another interests them or meets their needs.

They can also be the best ally in times of crisis, because they won't empathize with the threat.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

My kids are familiar with Slenderman. Mainly because there are countless YT videos where people record themselves playing the game and having the utter !@#$ scared out of them. It's brought tons of laughs to our household from time to time. My kids never asked if we could purchase the game, though. Perhaps it scared them a little more than they wanted to admit.

I have to agree, these stories & characters have been around since the beginning of time. We do need to monitor our childrens' internet and TV habits, but there will always be spooky stories and spooky characters.

All I can say is... if you're concerned about something, research it yourself. I had to do this very thing when my children asked if they could watch Happy Tree Friends. The old, but my friends watch it...

Believe me when I say, it's not happy and while there is a tree, there's nothing really friendly about the characters or the situations they find themselves in.

 

[claudicici]

I mentioned teen angst with regard to the "Slenderman" comments making fun of this attempted murder.

Not about the crime itself but the "tweets" or whatever that the crime inspired AFTER THE FACT online.

It wasn't your post Sonya,I agree with what you said.Another poster thinks this crime was 100% teenage angst.It was toward the beginning of the thread.

 

[Spice]

Interesting blog about Slender Man, Creepy Pasta, and Internet "legends" and how they may differ from the legends told around campfires since the beginning of time in the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...man-stabbing-stories-that-get-under-the-skin/

 

[Ausgirl]

Aha, here we are, one of the articles about kids. A really good (and quite long) read:

Currently, there is no standard test for psychopathy in children, but a growing number of psychologists believe that psychopathy, like autism, is a distinct neurological condition — one that can be identified in children as young as 5. Crucial to this diagnosis are callous-unemotional traits, which most researchers now believe distinguish “fledgling psychopaths” from children with ordinary conduct disorder, who are also impulsive and hard to control and exhibit hostile or violent behavior. According to some studies, roughly one-third of children with severe behavioral problems — like the aggressive disobedience that Michael displays — also test above normal on callous-unemotional traits. (Narcissism and impulsivity, which are part of the adult diagnostic criteria, are difficult to apply to children, who are narcissistic and impulsive by nature.)

-- and addressing the issue of treatment:


Most researchers who study callous-unemotional children, however, remain optimistic that the right treatment could not only change behavior but also teach a kind of intellectual morality, one that isn’t merely a smokescreen. “If a person doesn’t have the hardware to do emotion processing, you won’t be able to teach it,” Donald Lynam observes. “It may be like diabetes: you’re never really going to cure it. But if your idea of success is that these kids aren’t as likely to become violent and end up in jail, then I think treatment could work.”

Frick is willing to go further. If treatment is begun early enough, he says, it may be possible to rewire the brain so that even C.U. children might develop greater empathy, through therapies that teach everything from identifying emotions (C.U. children tend to have difficulty recognizing fear in others) to basics of the Golden Rule. No one has yet tested such treatments in C.U. children, but Frick notes that one early study indicated that warm, affectionate parenting seems to reduce callousness in C.U. kids over time — even in children who initially resist such closeness.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m...ar-old-a-psychopath.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all&

 

[inthedark14]

When I was in 4th grade I read the book Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. It was awesome, so scary and had the creepiest drawings. My friends and I loved to read it at Slumber parties. I came by the book by way of the Scolastic Book club from my very small ultra conservative Christian school. My mother ordered it for me. When she looked over my books from "book day" she said hmmm, you're a weird kid, if you think you're too scared stop reading it. I was always reading scary and paranormal books. I still do.
The reading of the Slenderman stuff isn't what totally throws me about this, it's the fact that these two supposedly believed they would become proxies of a made up character. The "and then stabby, stab, stab" comment made by one of the girls chills me to the bone.


Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk

 

[Spice]

Insanity or Insane are legal terms and not used in Mental Health and I do believe these girls knew they were ending a life and that it was wrong. They simply didn't care, showed zero compassion and empathy, and were somehow deluded enough to believe that Slender Man was real. Geyser packed the picture of her family because she did not believe she was coming home and would be living in Slender Man's mansion (which I guess happened to be within walking distance of her home? ) In her words, she packed the picture for that reason, because she did not want to "forget them". WTH?????

 

[ellemo]

This was a fascinating read. Thank you! :seeya:
So how do we fix this lack of empathy in kids? Would this be considered a personality disorder?

Yes, I believe it would.

I would like to point out that the vast majority of people with mood disorders and mental illness are not violent. Even those with Antisocial Personality Disorder or an illness that causes them to hallucinate, such as schizophrenia and bipolar depression.

We really don't know why these kids did what they did (and will probably never know) but I really hate reading all these people who see the need to blame metal illness. It's possible that they are mentally ill, but they may also be just bad kids or evil (And I do believe there are evil people in this world and I don't mean the Christian view of evil). They are certainly screwed up. But to label them with mental illness right away disturbs me.

I also hate blaming the parents, because hey, let's face it, all of you who are reading this can be accused of being into some pretty morbid things. Anyone who contributes to this forum or even reads it will be bashed pretty hard if they ever have the misfortune of having kids in trouble. (I can hear the rumors now, "Of course he's all screwed up, his mother/father/grandparent spent hours a day reading all about murders and looking at crime photos)

 

[Ausgirl]

I do not think it all unreasonable to read about the behaviour and demeanors of these children and conclude they -might- be mentally ill. They certainly aren't your regular 12 yr olds. They do show observable signs associated with mental illness. I think sometimes political correctness goes a bit far - and I would suggest that anyone capable of stabbing another person repeatedly and feeling nothing has -some- kind of mental imbalance. It's not a judgement, though it might be assumed it is. Really, it's pretty logical to speculate on mental illness as a factor.


Z, here's that article on brain imaging and kids. I'm actually sure the one I was looking for was better than this, but it's basically on track:

'Our findings indicate that children with conduct problems have an atypical brain response to seeing other people in pain,' psychologist Professor Essi Viding from University College London said.

'It is important to view these findings as an indicator of early vulnerability, rather than biological destiny.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...empathy-seeing-people-pain.html#ixzz33hL8MmAB

 

[Spice]

Does "blaming" mental illness mean bringing awareness to it? Is being informed "disturbing?" Is looking at things through this researched and real lens somehow worse than scapegoating and finding reasons that we would rather see?

1. They believed an internet meme/legend to be real.
2. They believed that he lived in a mansion in their town.
3. They believed that they were going to live with him.
4. One stated she felt zero remorse and thought it was "weird".
5. The other held her down and never helped her and egged the other on.
6. One also stated "the bad part of me wanted her dead/the good part of me didn't" (Paraphrased)
7. They stabbed their friend 19 times and apparently felt nothing.
8. One believed Slender was "teleporting"
9. One believed that he was going to "kill her family."
10. They believed they could be his "proxies."

A lot of other kids are/were exposed to Slender Man and never tried to viciously kill to be able to go live with him and honor him. How is that not, at least in part, mental illness? I'm disturbed that people dismiss mental illness as much as they do, especially with the amount of children and young adults going around killing each other. Mental illness is real. Very real. And it's the one thing we hate/are uncomfortable talking about to our own detriment.

 

[blue22]

Does "blaming" mental illness mean bringing awareness to it? Is being informed "disturbing?"

1. They believed an internet meme/legend to be real.
2. They believed that he lived in a mansion in their town.
3. They believed that they were going to live with him.
4. One stated she felt zero remorse and thought it was "weird".
5. The other held her down and never helped her and egged the other on.
6. One also stated "the bad part of me wanted her dead/the good part of me didn't" (Paraphrased)
7. They stabbed their friend 19 times and apparently felt nothing.
8. One believed Slender was "teleporting"
9. One believed that he was going to "kill her family."
10. They believed they could be his "proxies."
How is that not, at least in part, not mental illness? I'm disturbed that people dismiss mental illness as much as they do, especially with the amount of children and young adults going around killing each other. Mental illness is real. Very real.

There is a difference between mental illness and legal insanity. You can only "blame" mental illness, if one is found to be legally insane.

 

[Spice]

There is a difference between mental illness and legal insanity. You can only "blame" mental illness, if one is found to be legally insane.

I am not talking about "legally insane" or trial, or punishment, or legal terms. I am talking about mental illness. And just because we feel the need for punishment and consequences does not mean that we dismiss the existence of mental illness, out of fear that someone is going to get off. Being declared "legally insane" is not only difficult it is a rarity, but that doesn't mean a defense lawyer will not try, but he/she will likely fail. Andrea Yates was insane for real and had too have two trials for that to be recognized.

They should have consequences for what they have done and I never implied otherwise and i believe that they lacked empathy and knew what they were doing was wrong. I posted a few minutes ago about legal terms and "insanity". Insanity is not a term we use in mental health. Its a term for criminal law. And you can be mentally ill and still know that what you are doing is wrong. I'm totally aware of that.

 

[blue22]

I am not talking about "legally insane" or trial, or punishment, or legal terms. I am talking about mental illness. And just because we feel the need for punishment and consequences does not mean that we dismiss the existence of mental illness.

They should have consequences for what they have done and I never implied otherwise. I posted a few minutes ago about legal terms and "insanity". Insanity is not a term we use in mental health. Its a term for criminal law. And you can be mentally ill and still know that what you are doing is wrong. I'm totally aware of that.

Yes, but since they are not in the court system...all of this matters.

My sister is mentally ill and I don't dismiss that. However, I know for a fact she KNOWS right from wrong. If she murdered someone, I would have her be treated like everyone else who has murdered. That doesn't mean I dismiss her mental illness, it means she does not meet the criteria for it to matter. I don't think those that are mentally ill should get any special treatment when being investigated or charged with a crime, unless they are truly insane.

And I don't think age is an issue in crimes like this

 

[Ausgirl]

The word "blame" kind of does my head in here. Who on earth is "blaming"?

Mental illness isn't a choice, no-one can be "blamed" for having it. In speculating on it as a possible cause, I am not doing so vindictively or to be a malicious meany-pants, it's an observation, based on aberrant behaviours as reported.

eta: Nor should it be an excuse. If someone's that ill that they'd stab a friend nineteen times, they -need- to be put away from people for a long time, as a punishment for that poor girl's suffering, and as a chance to get treatment, as well as keeping them from hurting others.

Derek Percy, the Aussie child killer, was only 21 when they declared him insane at trial and locked him up indefinately. He died in prison because it was rightly believed that he was incurable, and the moment he got out he'd kill again. There's evidence that he was raping and torturing other kids as young as 13 or 14, and hints to violent, aberrant behaviours even earlier. Yet, he had an extremely high IQ and achieved many things in prison including college degrees. Amazing, really, what he did achieve. But he was insane, that's all there is to it.

I don't think any decision for these girls regarding court or treatment should be made quickly. They ought to be evaluated very carefully. Because one or both -might- have a genuine mental illness. Heck, a brain tumor - who can know? No tests have been done at all AFAIK.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

You do not have to believe the 50's were oppressive. ( they weren't if you were a white able bodied man for sure) That is your perspective and that is fine. I am stating that as a mental health professional paid to do assessments and with a higher degree in human and societal behavior (Social Work) Geyser appears or is showing signs of being possibly mentally ill. Classically. Her statements tell you that, her actions tell you that even more. And the more we ignore mental illness in this country and find 50 other things to scapegoat antisocial and psychotic behavior for the more problems we will continue to have.

We know nothing about her parents. NOTHING. And until we do, we cannot sit here and say that they were not "plugged" in. You may be right, but we do not know that at this point. Just as a lot of people here are blaming their actions on everything and anything but mental illness her parents may have done the same. They may very well have been unplugged when it came to how sick she really was.

I see families like that every single day and you would be shocked how common it is. It's not that they are bad parents, rather they are in denial, scared of the stigma of mental illness and keeping up appearances to themselves and to others. It is extremely prevalent. "Not my family" "Not in my town" "Not my kid". Yes. Your family, your kid, your town. It is what it is now lets deal with it, let's be preemptive, open, understanding, and deal with the problem before something like this happens as it does all too regularly.

The 50's were not oppressive to anyone I know. If they were oppressive it was because someone chose the wrong mate or settled for something they did not want. My grandmother worked during the war making bombers. My mother was a nurse and a hairdresser. I don't know one woman who was raised in th 50's that did not have a life of her own. To say a whole era was oppressive to woman is nonsense. Everyone makes their life what they want it to be. Donna Reed who did that show was the producer of her show. She did not just sit and do lines she was the one producing it. There are many many awesome woman that came out of the 50's.

But one of the good things was that it was a decade that was still about humanness. It was still face to face communication. Even the 60's and 70's and to some degree the 80's and then it all changed. DO I believe that computers are evil? Nope. But I believe that kids need to be monitored when using them and they need real live interaction with people that show them empathy and compassion and sympathy for other humans. Online nothing matters. You can be powerful in your nasty words. You can be someone.. Even if it is all in your mind.



To me this smacks of two kids with a pack mentality after being immersed in this slenderman legend. I They are vulnerable because of their age and hormones, development. Do I think they need more than jail? Yes. But I don't see mental illness. Not in 2 together. I see a plan and I see disconnection.

 

[Elley Mae]

The 50's were not oppressive to anyone I know. If they were oppressive it was because someone chose the wrong mate or settled for something they did not want. My grandmother worked during the war making bombers. My mother was a nurse and a hairdresser. I don't know one woman who was raised in th 50's that did not have a life of her own. To say a whole era was oppressive to woman is nonsense. Everyone makes their life what they want it to be. Donna Reed who did that show was the producer of her show. She did not just sit and do lines she was the one producing it. There are many many awesome woman that came out of the 50's.

But one of the good things was that it was a decade that was still about humanness. It was still face to face communication. Even the 60's and 70's and to some degree the 80's and then it all changed. DO I believe that computers are evil? Nope. But I believe that kids need to be monitored when using them and they need real live interaction with people that show them empathy and compassion and sympathy for other humans. Online nothing matters. You can be powerful in your nasty words. You can be someone.. Even if it is all in your mind.



To me this smacks of two kids with a pack mentality after being immersed in this slenderman legend. I They are vulnerable because of their age and hormones, development. Do I think they need more than jail? Yes. But I don't see mental illness. Not in 2 together. I see a plan and I see disconnection.

They have evil written all over their faces. It's there, just look. Their faces do not show well adjusted kids to me. They are not mentally ill, jmo They are evil, plain and simple. I hope they get the max, 60 years iirc.

 

[Spice]

Yes, but since they are not in the court system...all of this matters.

My sister is mentally ill and I don't dismiss that. However, I know for a fact she KNOWS right from wrong. If she murdered someone, I would have her be treated like everyone else who has murdered. That doesn't mean I dismiss her mental illness, it means she does not meet the criteria for it to matter. I don't think those that are mentally ill should get any special treatment when being investigated or charged with a crime, unless they are truly insane.

And I don't think age is an issue in crimes like this

It is two different conversations. I am not talking about court. I am not talking about trial. I am not talking about punishment.

What I am talking about is the possible reasons why it happened in the first place. I never said anyone deserved special treatment. These are all kneejerk reactions and speak to exactly what I mean when I say that we tend to ignore and not talk about mental illness when it comes to malignant acts and violent crime.

We go all black and white and start throwing simplistic terms around like "evil" "bad seed". It's too easy.

Yes the actions are evil....but what compelled them? What contributed to all of this disordered thinking and these horrific antisocial actions?

As far as punishment and court: To your point about age: Did you know that your brain is not done developing until you are 26 years old? Do I think 12 year olds should be tried as adults? No. No more than I think an adult should be tried as a juvenile, or No more than I think a mentally ill person that knew right from wrong should get off after committing a murder. These girls should do a serious amount of time in a juvenile facility like the juveniles they are. Whether you think they are inherently evil or not.

 

[blue22]

It is two different conversations. I am not talking about court. I am not talking about trial. I am not talking about punishment.

What I am talking about is the possible reasons why it happened in the first place. I never said anyone deserved special treatment. These are all kneejerk reactions and speak to exactly what I mean when I say that we tend to ignore and not talk about mental illness when it comes to malignant acts and violent crime.

We go all black and white and start throwing simplistic terms around like "evil" "bad seed". It's too easy.

Yes the actions are evil....but what compelled them? What contributed to all of this disordered thinking and these horrific antisocial actions?

As far as punishment and court: To your point about age: Did you know that your brain is not done developing until you are 26 years old? Do I think 12 year olds should be tried as adults? No. No more than I think an adult should be tried as a juvenile, or No more than I think a mentally ill person that knew right from wrong should get off after committing a murder.

This was a gruesome, well planned slaying of another human being. A 12 year old is developed enough to know that is wrong. Period. They committed a crime, that should not be handled in the juvenile system.

ETA: Obviously the victim is alive, but they thought they were murdering her.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

It is two different conversations. I am not talking about court. I am not talking about trial. I am not talking about punishment.

What I am talking about is the possible reasons why it happened in the first place. I never said anyone deserved special treatment. These are all kneejerk reactions and speak to exactly what I mean when I say that we tend to ignore and not talk about mental illness when it comes to malignant acts and violent crime.

We go all black and white and start throwing simplistic terms around like "evil" "bad seed". It's too easy.

Yes the actions are evil....but what compelled them? What contributed to all of this disordered thinking and these horrific antisocial actions?

As far as punishment and court: To your point about age: Did you know that your brain is not done developing until you are 26 years old? Do I think 12 year olds should be tried as adults? No. No more than I think an adult should be tried as a juvenile, or No more than I think a mentally ill person that knew right from wrong should get off after committing a murder.

RBBM -- I agree. I tend to be outspoken wrt subjects related to postpartum mental health issues because the reality needs to be out there. We need to talk about them. How can we as a society/parents/family/friends learn to recognize the signals if we can't discuss them?

I'm not offended when mental health discussions arise. It should be discussed as a possibility. Just as it's possible the actions these girls took was evil. We'd have a pretty boring discussion here if everyone agreed.