WI - Frank Jude beaten by off-duty Mikwaukee PD officers, 2004

[BillyGoatGruff]

As long as we're into blaming the victim, and assuming a badge was stolen - who is the dumb police officer that has everyone over for a party and then just leaves his badge sitting out somewhere, where it could easily be picked up and stolen? I know everyone who comes to my house for a party, but I still don't leave my laptop computer or anything else valuable and important to my job out and available.

No charges were pressed with regard to the badge - on Jude or Levell. If you choose to believe that's what happened, of course it's your right. I am pretty sure that if there was ANY evidence to support that, the DA would have filed those charges. I believe that the badge story made a great reason for beating Jude, and Spengler simply disposed of his badge later that night. Much easier, much simpler explanation.

Even if the badge was stolen, it's really too bad the jury totally ignored the law in order to let that be the excuse for criminal behavior on the part of the cops.

I've thrown parties and had blank checks which I thought were hidden stolen out of my house, and obvivously by people I thought I knew well enough to have in my home. Although if I was a cop, and virtually all my friends were cops, I would probably not worry about what someone my or may not be doing in my bedroom while I was not there. I suspect Spengler had forgotten all about the woman he'd had the threesome with and that he'd even mentioned his party to her until she suddenly showed up at his house with guests she had invited without asking him. Like is said, everyone in this fiasco was/is a certified moron.

 

[Ang50]

SO are you basing that the badge was taking by testimony? All I ever heard was the cops suspected the badge was taken. No proof just hear say IMHO>

The info on this thread about the 3some - Spengler love triangle is news to me, as is the accusation about Levelle the friend with empty pockets because he had to throw everything out of his pockets, which is Duke's support for his belief. I'd never heard any of that reported, and I didn't watch the entire trial, but I didn't happen to read any testimony about either of those pieces of info.

I'm sure Spengler and Masarik testified about the suspicion of the badge being missing. I believe Jude's testimony was that he was never in Spengler's bedroom, and that's where Spengler said his badge had been. Jude could not account for Levell the entire time, but he did give the impression that they mostly walked in and out - not enough time to have a drink or anything.

To me, it's even plausible that Spengler *thought* his badge was missing, and if he found it later, well - he better have disposed of it. Otherwise, whoops - sorry, Frank Jude. It doesn't absolve the cops of using the deadly force (if they were acting in a police capacity) that occurred in this case. Even if they had found the badge on him, this was clearly a criminal beating. I find it telling that the citizen testimony was mostly shocked - they could not BELIEVE that cops were handling a suspect like this. Even passerby who might have heard "he stole something" or thought he did something wrong didn't think that it deserved that sort of retaliation. The situation was totally out of control, and it was the on and off duty cops responsibility, not Jude's or Levelle's.

 

[Details]

The current jury system is kinda biased in a class? or something way.

Low paying, part time, or new jobs don't pay for jury duty, which means even if they maybe can't fire you (they sure aren't going to promote you!), with the nothing that is paid for jury duty, low income types need to avoid it at any cost.

Then, you can be excluded on the basis of prejudicial feelings towards the defendant or witnesses - like cops or drug dealers - if you personally hate drug dealers, or hate cops, you won't be on the trial of a drug dealer. And, of course, those living in impoverished neighborhoods are more likely to have had either negative contact with a drug dealer, or negative contact with a cop (since druggies don't like the lawabiding in their neighborhoods, and criminals get along fine with the druggies, but don't like cops).

It's people with somewhat easier lives, with a job they are fairly comfortable in, or a retirement with enough spare money to afford jury duty (at least when I did it, the parking fee was higher than the jury duty pay!) that go on juries, that don't fight it too hard. And that does put a bias that has an effect of reducing or eliminating the number of black people on a jury.

Then, the defense attorney no doubt knew who he didn't want, and tilted the jury even further white.

 

[Ang50]

I suspect Spengler had forgotten all about the woman he'd had the threesome with and that he'd even mentioned his party to her until she suddenly showed up at his house with guests she had invited without asking him. Like is said, everyone in this fiasco was/is a certified moron.

I agree with the moron statement - there's no question. Jude said on the stand that he said that night he was an Oshkosh cop - that seems like a bad thing to say, but then again, I'd tell people I was the President if I thought it might help me avoid a beating by 15 or more people. If the 3some stuff is true, I doubt anyone had forgotten it, but if true, I'll bet that woman was trying to make Spengler jealous with Jude. And I doubt it took much, with alcohol and whatever else to make the situation get really shaky really quick, regardless of the badge issue.

I hope I can convey this well in a posting, but Jude graduated from a high school that's nearly 99% rural and white. Oshkosh, where he was living, is probably 98% white. He's biracial himself. My point is that it's not as if he'd never been in a situation where he was the only person of color in a room or at a party. Or that he was an inner city black man totally out of his element at a suburban white boy party. If he had this "vibe" of being unwelcome, there was a reason, and that started the instant he walked in, long before anything about a badge came up. He stated he was uncomfortable from the beginning. It's those reasons that lead me to believe that this was about racism and jealousy, not a badge.

 

[Ang50]

The current jury system is kinda biased in a class? or something way.

Low paying, part time, or new jobs don't pay for jury duty, which means even if they maybe can't fire you (they sure aren't going to promote you!), with the nothing that is paid for jury duty, low income types need to avoid it at any cost.

Then, you can be excluded on the basis of prejudicial feelings towards the defendant or witnesses - like cops or drug dealers - if you personally hate drug dealers, or hate cops, you won't be on the trial of a drug dealer. And, of course, those living in impoverished neighborhoods are more likely to have had either negative contact with a drug dealer, or negative contact with a cop (since druggies don't like the lawabiding in their neighborhoods, and criminals get along fine with the druggies, but don't like cops).

It's people with somewhat easier lives, with a job they are fairly comfortable in, or a retirement with enough spare money to afford jury duty (at least when I did it, the parking fee was higher than the jury duty pay!) that go on juries, that don't fight it too hard. And that does put a bias that has an effect of reducing or eliminating the number of black people on a jury.

Then, the defense attorney no doubt knew who he didn't want, and tilted the jury even further white.

You're absolutely right. I forgot to mention that just the standard jury pool I saw was tilted to retirees. Those are the people that show up - most juries I saw this summer (at least 10 between MKE and another county) were heavy with retired women. There were VERY few young men (white or otherwise) that I remember seeing in any jury pool.

After that, jurors can be struck for cause. Self-employed people, women who are primary caretakers for their young children, college kids, and people who have made it clear that their jobs will make it tough on them are usually excused. Plus, you get excused if you've had a run-in with the DA's office that led to prejudicial feelings, or if your family members have. There it's just statistically more likely that black men and black people, at least, have been involved in the system, and may have those feelings.

Then there are the strikes, which can be for any reason except race. Each side gets the same number - the prosecution had the same as the defense - even though there were 3 defendants. But it's not hard after all that to have a mostly white, mostly old (45 and up), mostly mid-to-upper class, mostly educated jury, at least in WI.

 

[Details]

And it's not hard to make a strike seem like it's not racially based, even when it is.

 

[duke]

SO are you basing that the badge was taking by testimony? All I ever heard was the cops suspected the badge was taken. No proof just hear say IMHO>

You're right, there was no proof offered that the badge was stolen. I'm basing my opinion on the police suspicion that was in the testimony and speculating that this is what happened.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Let's assume the guy did steal the badge. Still no reason for a room full of cops to inflict this type of damage on anyone. There was a gang mentality that took over and these cops went overboard and beat the daylights out of the dude.

 

[JDB]

You're right, there was no proof offered that the badge was stolen. I'm basing my opinion on the police suspicion that was in the testimony and speculating that this is what happened.

But then again you belive the police that beat the crap out of Jude. When in testimony it was stated they did not take the badge.Face it no matter if or if not the badge was taken these 3 went overboard. and like someone else stated. When the get charge in a Federal court they will wish it never happened. I will give Boyle credit he did a great job. But when you have 3 against one as far as striking the jury the cards were stacked against the DA.

 

[duke]

But then again you belive the police that beat the crap out of Jude. When in testimony it was stated they did not take the badge.Face it no matter if or if not the badge was taken these 3 went overboard. and like someone else stated. When the get charge in a Federal court they will wish it never happened. I will give Boyle credit he did a great job. But when you have 3 against one as far as striking the jury the cards were stacked against the DA.

I've already agreed that the cops went over the line. I just don't think it's that big of a deal, and I don't think they should go to prison for it.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I've already agreed that the cops went over the line. I just don't think it's that big of a deal, and I don't think they should go to prison for it.

You don't think that a few cops beating the snot out of a guy is that big of a deal????? How come?

 

[JDB]

I've already agreed that the cops went over the line. I just don't think it's that big of a deal, and I don't think they should go to prison for it.

Ohh but you also say they should get thier jobs back.No they need to go away for a few years. An you know dang well if it was 3 citizens doing this. they would be in Prison for a few years. The Badge does should not allow them to escape Justice

 

[Details]

The badge puts them at a higher level - they're supposed to be enforcing the laws that prevent mob justice and vigilante beatings of someone for mere suspicion; and instead they were among the worst!

 

[duke]

You don't think that a few cops beating the snot out of a guy is that big of a deal????? How come?

Well, because I think the guy deserved it for reasons stated earler. Again, I'm not saying that what happened was right, it wasn't. But I do believe Jude created the whole problem.

 

[duke]

Ohh but you also say they should get thier jobs back.No they need to go away for a few years. An you know dang well if it was 3 citizens doing this. they would be in Prison for a few years. The Badge does should not allow them to escape Justice

I'm not so sure that's true. If someone entered your house and stole from you, I think most juries would understand if you decided to administer a good beating before the cops got there.

 

[JDB]

I'm not so sure that's true. If someone entered your house and stole from you, I think most juries would understand if you decided to administer a good beating before the cops got there.

Ohh how wrong can you be!!!!! A jury would convict me I know that if I beat the crap out of someone. An I would deserve it.
And this reminds me of the Old Charles Bronson film Death Wish. And the cops wante to take the law in thier own hands and got away with it.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Well, because I think the guy deserved it for reasons stated earler. Again, I'm not saying that what happened was right, it wasn't. But I do believe Jude created the whole problem.

But by the same token, wouldn't a sex offender create the whole problem of his being on a list? This guy deserved to get the snot beat out of him for possibly stealing a badge, but a SEX OFFENDER who cannot be rehabilitated doesn't deserve to be on a list???? Come on Duke!!!!!

 

[duke]

But by the same token, wouldn't a sex offender create the whole problem of his being on a list? This guy deserved to get the snot beat out of him for possibly stealing a badge, but a SEX OFFENDER who cannot be rehabilitated doesn't deserve to be on a list???? Come on Duke!!!!!

We're mixing two threads. I can fight two battles at one time, but not in the same place.

You're really comparing apples and oranges here. Both deserve punishment. As I see it, Jude was punished and should be left alone. Sex offenders get punished but then they're punished again by being forced to register for the rest of their lives.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

We're mixing two threads. I can fight two battles at one time, but not in the same place.

You're really comparing apples and oranges here. Both deserve punishment. As I see it, Jude was punished and should be left alone. Sex offenders get punished but then they're punished again by being forced to register for the rest of their lives.

I see what you're saying. So, if you catch someone breaking into your home and shoot them in the face (not killing them of course), they shouldn't have to be punished by the law (courts) too.

I don't agree with that. I think they should get all the punishment that they can, but the trouble here is that it was a group of cops who are trained to restrain themselves from dishing out punishment on perps, not a scared out of their wits homeowner who was just trying to protect himself and his home.

 

[Details]

You have the right to self defense - nothing more than that. If someone breaks into your property, steals something, you can restrain them, you can assault them if that prevents them from hurting you, you can kill them only if you are in fear of your life, but three on one, and he's helpless - that is exactly the same as if it was a mugger or beating you up - and that's all they were - thugs. Doubly so when they don't even know if he stole anything or not.