GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[southcitymom]

I don't know what doctor you are speaking about. I personally have met no doctors that are in that category.I think you are taking my statement to make it in to something else. When I say tools I mean that they are given gifts that can help. There are sometimes the gifts aren't enough.

You are over the line as far as making a point. You have no idea the heartbreak over a real situation. You are juxtaposing what you think and I don't think you are based in real life situations. You are using hyperbole and it isn't funny or enlightening to those who have to really experience it.

I really don't have anything to say to you anymore.

I'm sorry if my post hurt your feelings, concerned! I meant no disrespect at all. :blowkiss:
ETA: I was talking about this doctor: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62429.

 

[southcitymom]

Okay did you miss the words "as well" in my post? I never said don't pray, just don't rely on prayer alone. Just like somebody pointed out the car accident scenario. Are you going to let someone bleed to death in front of you, obviously suffering while waiting for God to heal them? This girl reportedly from people who have diabetes know, suffered tremendously and needlessly. These parents are stupid at best in my opinion, if not negligent.

I don't know how she suffered. As I stated earlier in the thread, I have a friend who feel into a diabetic coma at a young age. This experience was not painful for him and was precipitated by some tiredness, but nothing dire.

I am just curious as to people's viewpoints as to why prayer alone is not a sufficient response.

 

[southcitymom]

i think he can do anything. i also think he gave us a brain for reason other than to keep our heads from floating away. my grandmother prays for everything. before she crosses a road a little "lord help me to find a opening if it is your will". she also looks both ways. god answers prayers. sometimes it is yes, sometimes no, and sometimes the answer is take care of this yourself. maybe he answered these parents prayer with the 3rd option and they just did not listen.

Maybe. I've no certain grasp on the parent's viewpoint beyond the statement they made the day after their daughter's death. But I think I will jump off now! Thank you, as always, for the respectful debate.

 

[Vegas Bride]

On Nancy Grace tonight they were saying computers have been seized from the parents home. I'm wondering what they're looking for there?

VB

 

[Maybe So]

People like these parents give religion a bad name....wouldn't it make more sense to give appropriate medical treatment AND pray for a cure?

Why call 911 and give CPR but not medical treatment before death? They decided it was up to God until God made the choice they didn't like and then medical intervention like CPR and ambulances was just fine?

Stupid people. Poor kids born to them....I hope none of the others ever needs medical treatment.

 

[joe jones]

Prayer didn't kill this young girl. Diabetes did.

IMO prayer did, the diabetes was treatable and not life threatening, the parents made a choice prayer not medicine,

the diabetes became life threatening because prayer did not work, she dies from her illness, but she was killed by the choice of prayer over medicine

so she died from her illness but the choice of prayer killed her

 

[sherri79]

IMO prayer did, the diabetes was treatable and not life threatening, the parents made a choice prayer not medicine,

the diabetes became life threatening because prayer did not work, she dies from her illness, but she was killed by the choice of prayer over medicine

so she died from her illness but the choice of prayer killed her

prayer did not kill her. her parents choice to only pray and ignore the gift of medicine killed her. to imply that she was killed by prayer implies there is something wrong with praying for the sick. there is not. there is something wrong with not getting medical help for the sick. she would be just as dead if her parents had knitted instead of prayed.

 

[GlitchWizard]

prayer has killed, it killed this child, because her parents prayed and did not get medical attention for a treatable disease, without her parents belief in prayer she would be alive,

and that also goes for all the other cases linked, where children have died because prayer was chosen over intervention that would have saved them,

so in many cases the choice of prayer has killed

I can see your view, though I disagree. It's not the prayer that kills, it's the disease or injury. Who's to say that she wouldn't have sufferred an allergic reaction to treatment, a staph infection from the hospital or a nurse's accidental injection of a wrong medication at the hospital? These things happen everyday and people die. Treatment isn't always sucessful. Sometimes it is. Sometimes prayer is (or appears to be.) Sometimes it's just luck, time, etc.

My grandmother was never sick a day in her life. She never went to a doctor. When she got old, my father took her to a doctor and he put her on medications. Within 6 months she was dead. Was it the medical intervention? I don't know. But maybe it would have been best just to pray.

 

[scarpetta]

On Nancy Grace tonight they were saying computers have been seized from the parents home. I'm wondering what they're looking for there?
VB

Would it impact the case if they looked up home remedies online and/or did google searches of her symptoms?

If "frequent vomiting" was searched in google 3 or 4 weeks before she died I would say that was significant, or "signs person is in coma" hours before the relative called 911.

There is also the mom's narrative post online on 2/28/08 where she claims that God showed her a greater faith, and that she has a role among her peers or fellow believers as one having special abilities or powers from God. If this was her role then maybe she didn't want to "lose face" by taking her daughter to the hospital and appear less spiritual or "gifted." She wanted it to be known to others by posting this that she has visions, God shows her things personally, and that she also is a spiritual leader of sorts who helps others who are doubting become filled with the same type of "spirit" that she can transfer to them from God and by "laying" her hands on them. So maybe not taking her daughter to the doctor was sort of like if the people from the health club heard about their personal trainer getting liposuction, and really very little about faith at all.

http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=theyshall-leilani

 

[Vegas Bride]

Another thing mentioned on Nancy Grace last night is that the parents had medical insurance! If their belief was no medical care, then what in the blue blazes were they doing having insurance at all? The more I hear about this case the more confused I am. Now I'm wondering how long it's been since either of the parents were seen by a Dr.

VB

 

[scarpetta]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/FON0101/303280047/1985
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]WESTON — Everest Metro police took several books on healing powers and faith, as well as computer equipment, from a town of Weston home where an 11-year-old girl died from an untreated illness, according to a search warrant obtained today by the Wausau Daily Herald. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Madeline Kara Neumann died Sunday after her parents chose to pray for her recovery instead of taking her to a hospital. Neumann’s parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, did not know she had diabetes and had not taken her to a doctor since she was 3 years old, police said.

Neumann’s grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that Neumann was unable to walk or talk on Saturday and she advised Leilani Neumann to take her to a hospital, according to the search warrant.

Leilani told Gordon that the girl, who went by her middle name, Kara, would be fine and God would heal her, the warrant said.

Evalani Neumann called her daughter-in-law Ariel Ness on Sunday in California after she was told by Leilani Neumann that Kara was in a coma. Ness, who identified herself as Ariel Gomez to authorities, then called the Marathon County Sheriff’s Department about 2 p.m. Sunday and asked for an ambulance.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin is expected to complete his investigation today and give the information to the Marathon County District Attorney’s office.

Among the items seized by police were:

• More than a dozen books on health or religion.

• A book written by David Eells, who operates an online church called Unleavened Bread Ministries.

• Journals written by Dale, Leilani and Kara Neumann.

• Three laptop computers and two computer towers.

• Insurance paperwork and Blue Cross HMO cards for the family.

• A syringe and a medicine cup with a red liquid inside. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[philamena]

Dale and Leilani Neumann, did not know she had diabetes and had not taken her to a doctor since she was 3 years old, police said.

Sorry,
I still think the parents are idiots.
It wasn't like their child had a runny nose or a skinned knee. Childhood diabetes can be terrible. I can't believe her parents denied her medical treatment.
Prayer is good. It should be used with common sense.

 

[scarpetta]

David Eells book “Signs and Wonders Through You”

“About the Author
David Eells is a full Gospel minister in Pensacola, Florida where he teaches several assemblies of the saints and is a life long student of the Word. He also is a man that by the grace of God has had a miraculous life, which he has been gifted to pass on to others.
[…]
The Lord told him, "I am sending you through a wilderness so that you can tell my people that I still supply their needs there." His experience became a wilderness lack of his own ability to save, heal, deliver, and provide for himself outside of faith in God. (1 Pet.4:11)...if any man ministereth, [ministering] as of the strength which God supplieth: that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ... Early in his walk he embarked on the mission of learning to do things according to the Spirit and example of Scripture, learning to trust in the arm of the Lord rather than the arm of flesh. As one might imagine, this life-style put him in many situations to prove the promises. The Lord wanted David to be able to speak from experience about His faithfulness to "supply every need of yours," whether that be righteousness, healing, deliverance, or provision. He relates that he would not have traded these trying experiences that led to God’s miraculous answers for anything. The excerpts from this book will speak for themselves. This book is a strong testimony that God still confirms His Word with signs and wonders through those who believe and act on the true Gospel.”
http://www.amazon.com/Signs-Wonders-Through-David-Eells/dp/1403370478

Leilani Neumann 2/28/08
http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=theyshall-leilani
"I told hershe could receive it by faith, because I was filledwith the Holy Spirit and I was going to lay my hands on her and if she had faith to receive it, she would receive it."

 

[RWill1974]

I hope they throw the book at 'em. Freakin' barbarians. I consider myself a devout christian but you just have to use COMMON SENSE. There are some people who just take religion way too far and these parents fall squarely into that category. Prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law and use them as an example to all others who would use their religious beliefs to NEGLECT their children!

 

[philamena]

I hope they throw the book at 'em. Freakin' barbarians. I consider myself a devout christian but you just have to use COMMON SENSE. There are some people who just take religion way too far and these parents fall squarely into that category. Prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law and use them as an example to all others who would use their religious beliefs to NEGLECT their children!

RWill1974,
Welcome.
You got that right. It's neglect.:clap:

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/209...ts-posts-on-site-that-calls-doctors-dangerous



"On his Web site, Eells reported that the word pharmacy was derived from a Greek word that means “witchcraft” or “sorcery.” In addition, he wrote that based on federal statistics, “doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.”
Eells did not respond Wednesday to the Wausau Daily Herald’s request for an interview.


One part of the site includes a variety of links to stories of prayer healings.
One woman wrote that she refused to see a doctor when she was hemorrhaging blood because she knew God would heal her, despite her husband’s repeated efforts to take her to a doctor. The woman reported that after days of intense pain and weakness she overcame the bleeding and recovered.


“I wanted to write this because it’s the anniversary of the healing, and also to say that since then my children and I haven’t been to any doctor, and we don’t take any medications, either,” she wrote in February. “We even told the dentist that we won’t be going back.”

 

[scarpetta]

“The book “Sovereign God,” by David Eells, and several CDs by Eells were also taken. Eells is the founder of the Web site AmericasLastDays.com and Unleavened Bread Ministries. Leilani Neumann has written two posts on the Web site, and she and her husband had twice prayed over the telephone with Eells in the waning hours of Kara’s life.
Other books included “Handbook for Healing,” “God’s Chosen Fast,” “90 Minutes in Heaven,” “Dear God Prayer Book” and a medical and first-aid book.
The request for the search warrant included new details of the case. The girl was known as Kara to family and friends, but she is referred to as Madeline in the official documents obtained by the Journal Sentinel.

Grandmother concerned
Evalani Gordon, the girl’s grandmother, told an investigator that her granddaughter had been ill for one to 1 1/2 weeks and reported that “Madeline was very tired and wanted to be held by mom.”
She said three to four days before her granddaughter’s death, “the girl only wanted to lie down and do homework from her bed.” By Saturday, when the girl was unable to walk or talk, the grandmother, who lives out of state, told Leilani Neumann to take Madeline to a doctor, the document says.
“Leilani Neumann told Evalani Gordon that Madeline would be fine and God would heal her,” according to the document.”
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20993/faith-healing-4

 

[scarpetta]

Leilani Neumann 02/28/08

"The Lord began to clarify more and more to me about how faith works and how His Spirit works, reminding me about David Eells' story of the motorcycle accident he had, and how The Lord prepared David in how to stand on his bike through three visions, so that he would survive when the accident occurred later.
I knew from The Lord that my vision was preparation in the Spirit for what would take place in the natural. Many times The Lord has told me things that are going to happen many years down the road, but this was the first time I had experienced this kind of preparation for that very day. It was a new step of faith for me, so I knew I had to do it right away before I started teaching because the topic was something that needed to be spiritually discerned."



http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=theyshall-leilani

 

[GlitchWizard]

Another thing mentioned on Nancy Grace last night is that the parents had medical insurance! If their belief was no medical care, then what in the blue blazes were they doing having insurance at all? The more I hear about this case the more confused I am. Now I'm wondering how long it's been since either of the parents were seen by a Dr.

VB

Are you SERIOUS? If it was included in his job, I can see it, but to have good medical insurance with no intent on using it is just tossing money away... and people don't often do that, do they? I'd like the answer to your question as well. Interesting.

 

[scarpetta]

It is not a rare occurrence for parents to turn away from their children at the moment when their children need them most if their "faith" is in a religious leader or religious group, and one that has told them that if they put their child above what they have decreed is proper "obedience" to God, they themselves will be lacking in faith or disobedient to God.