GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

  • #361



http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=4/2/2008&id=37848

WEDNESDAY, April 2, 2008, 1:16 p.m.
By Bill Glauber


DA awaits police report in diabetes death

Marathon County District Attorney Jill Fastad said today that next week her office expects to receive completed police reports into the death of Madeline Kara Neumann, the 11-year-old who died of complications from untreated diabetes March 23.

The girl's parents, Leilani and Dale Neumann, of Weston, have said they didn't know she had diabetes, didn't take her to a doctor and prayed for healing. The family does not belong to any organized religion or faith but believes in the Bible and that healing comes through prayer, Leilani Neumann has said.

In a news release, Falstad said she and other members of her office met with officers earlier this week to discuss the status of the investigation. They began to review reports already provided by the Everest Metro Police Department.

The news release listed the factors "we will consider in determining what charges may be appropriate" once the investigation is completed.

The factors include "the duration of the child's illness; the progression of the disease and what were the outward symptoms; the actual or inferred knowledge of the caregivers of Kara's condition."

Other factors include "the observations made by other witnesses; the overall context and circumstances surrounding the death, including the role of the family's beliefs."

Prosecutors will also have to weigh "whether there are legal impediments to issuing charges."

Under Wisconsin statutes, parents can't be accused of abuse or neglect if the sole reason for the injury is that they relied on prayer.

Dan Vergin, the Everest Metro Police Chief, told the Journal Sentinel last week that charges are possible in the case.

"Our feeling is it was an unnecessary death," Vergin told the Journal Sentinel. "After everything else is said and done, it was unnecessary for the 11-year-old to die. She could have easily been treated and had a long, loving life here on Earth."
 
  • #362
"The answering machine at the family's home includes the greeting, "What you do for others, God will do for you."

Well, then again, maybe they are afraid.
:eek: well there ya go!
 
  • #363
I think someone should invent a giant fake Womb with a hinged door at the top.

The children of these parents who are members of extreme religions can pull the giant Womb out of the closet whenever they feel sick. Just lift the hinged door and jump in.

I think I’ll call it “Womb at the Inn

The giant Womb can come with an owner’s manual that can instruct the children to loudly shout “SATAN IS TRYING TO ABORT ME!!!” as they shut the door.

Their parents and all other members will then become a Hornet’s nest of activity with all of their picketing and calling the media. They might even try to blow up the evil virus that has made their child sick and has caused Satan to want to abort them.

Whatever works.
 
  • #364
I have refrained for posting on this b/c I don't like to get in religious discussions but can't keep quiet anymore. I was thinking of this girl today b/c of a family I once knew, the family was extremely religious and her dad lost his job, instead of looking for a new one, they prayed for a miracle to pay their bills. Well, instead of Jesus, the repr man came and took their cars and home. I passed their church today and the billboard in front said " release the demon of addiction tonight 7-10". So if a drug addict shows up they will leave healed? No effort of their own, just hands upon them?the point is, why do we depend on God for every little thing. If he was going to infinitley care for us, give us tons of money, happiness, healt and security then why do we have free will. God is wonderful and I belive and have strogn faith, but I know he is not my miracle cure. I have to do something. i have to take care of me, my heath, my finances, my home and my kids. God won't get me out in a jam just b/c I call upon him. he will give me strength to get through and support me though but God is not a cure all for those who do not want to make any effort themselves. If he was all churchs would be standing room only on Sundays.
 
  • #365
How are they already being punished for life? Are you saying that they now feel bad enough about it to cause them internal torment and grief over it for the rest of their lives?

Can you provide a link or evidence indicating that they have received a brand new normal functioning conscience that has the capacity to feel that way?

If you can't, then the only measuring stick we are left with to measure their remorse, is the one that they themselves used to measure the potential for loss to begin with.

I think it would boggle your imagination to know just how quickly appropriate remorse can morph into "It was just God's will" and render all parties involved instantly blameless and grief free.

I do have some experience with remorse morphing into God's will with fanatacism!

Yes, based on what I have read, I believe the parents are devastated that their daughter is dead. They wanted her to get better - that's what they and their friends and family were praying about.

I do not believe they started any of this with a conscious that is not fully functioning. We will learn more later, I'm sure, but right now I don't have any evidence that they are sociopathic.
 
  • #366
I have refrained for posting on this b/c I don't like to get in religious discussions but can't keep quiet anymore. I was thinking of this girl today b/c of a family I once knew, the family was extremely religious and her dad lost his job, instead of looking for a new one, they prayed for a miracle to pay their bills. Well, instead of Jesus, the repr man came and took their cars and home. I passed their church today and the billboard in front said " release the demon of addiction tonight 7-10". So if a drug addict shows up they will leave healed? No effort of their own, just hands upon them?the point is, why do we depend on God for every little thing. If he was going to infinitley care for us, give us tons of money, happiness, healt and security then why do we have free will. God is wonderful and I belive and have strogn faith, but I know he is not my miracle cure. I have to do something. i have to take care of me, my heath, my finances, my home and my kids. God won't get me out in a jam just b/c I call upon him. he will give me strength to get through and support me though but God is not a cure all for those who do not want to make any effort themselves. If he was all churchs would be standing room only on Sundays.

I agree that God helps those who help themselves.
 
  • #367
I have refrained for posting on this b/c I don't like to get in religious discussions but can't keep quiet anymore. I was thinking of this girl today b/c of a family I once knew, the family was extremely religious and her dad lost his job, instead of looking for a new one, they prayed for a miracle to pay their bills. Well, instead of Jesus, the repr man came and took their cars and home. I passed their church today and the billboard in front said " release the demon of addiction tonight 7-10". So if a drug addict shows up they will leave healed? No effort of their own, just hands upon them?the point is, why do we depend on God for every little thing. If he was going to infinitley care for us, give us tons of money, happiness, healt and security then why do we have free will. God is wonderful and I belive and have strogn faith, but I know he is not my miracle cure. I have to do something. i have to take care of me, my heath, my finances, my home and my kids. God won't get me out in a jam just b/c I call upon him. he will give me strength to get through and support me though but God is not a cure all for those who do not want to make any effort themselves. If he was all churchs would be standing room only on Sundays.
You TOTALLY hit the nail on the HEAD! I cant stand that people think they can just pray and everyone will be healed ect...While I believe in healing I would NEVER sit back and do nothing if there was medical intervention that could be the cure! I believe God gave Doctors the ability to do what they do and I'll be danged if I dont Utilize that if needed!
 
  • #368
They let her linger for days suffering. Instead of medical attention they got on the phone with their leader David Eells, and he prayed with them and apparently did not advise them to seek medical help. They chose his advice. She slipped into a coma finally and they called relatives and let them know she had, and STILL they are not the one's who called 911.

Do you mean that you believe in hell and that they are headed there, and so who cares if they are free to do this again in the meantime?

Or do you mean that their punishment is the amount that they now feel bad about for the deliberate decisions they made while they never reached for the phone and watched her die instead? I don't think you mean this second option because their version of feeling bad about something and your version of feeling bad about something is likely 2 very different versions.

No, their punishment is they lost their lovely child. I couldn't imagine anything worse.
 
  • #369


http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=733395
Parents prayed with ministry founder

He called family night before diabetic girl died

By BILL GLAUBER
[email protected]


Posted: March 27, 2008

On the night before 11-year-old Madeline Kara Neumann died of complications from untreated diabetes, her parents did not call a doctor.
Instead, Dale and Leilani Neumann prayed over the telephone Saturday with the founder of a religious Web site named AmericasLastDays.com.


The stunning detail was revealed Thursday by David Eells, whose Unleavened Bread Ministries operates the Web site that focuses on religious healing and the apocalypse. Leilani Neumann, who lives in the Town of Weston, wrote two posts on the Web site.


Eells, 59, who lives in Pensacola, Fla., said he was asked by an elder to call the parents and pray for their daughter.


In a statement posted on the Web site, Eells says that the child had started to get sick "in just the last day or so" and the parents "asked me to pray and agree with them in prayer, basically because she appeared pale and listless. They did not seem overly concerned because they had had healings before. This is not an unusual kind of request to us."
Eells said he received another call from the Neumanns on Sunday as the family "followed an emergency vehicle with Kara in it. They told me that she had stopped breathing and asked if I would pray that the Lord would spare her and raise her up, which I did."


The girl was pronounced dead at St. Clare's Hospital. An autopsy determined she had diabetic ketoacidosis, a serious complication of untreated insulin-dependent diabetes.
Faith healing

Everest Metro Police and the Marathon County Department of Social Services are investigating the case, which has aroused national attention.



The case puts in stark contrast the issues of parental rights to practice religion, the welfare of children and the state's role to protect minors.


It has also cast a light on the practice of faith healing.
Eells said the Neumanns "do not deserve this persecution" and wrote that authorities "don't investigate the people who put their trust in doctors whose family members die by the hundreds of thousands from medical mistakes every year."


Eells says in the statement he had communicated with the family via e-mails over the past few years.


In an interview with the Journal Sentinel, Eells said the Neumanns "are honest people, good Christian people. I believe their word. They're just good people and they believe Jesus heals like we do."
Eells said he started the Web site in the mid-1990s and that his ministry is "full Gospel."


In addition to concentrating on the apocalypse - the end of the world after the return of Jesus in evangelical theology - the Web site is focused on healing and includes discussions against conventional medicine. It includes a number of posts that recommend using prayer instead of doctors, medicine and other traditional treatment for illnesses.


The Web site received 7,636 U.S. visitors per month over the past three months, according to a Web tracking site.
Leilani Neumann has said the family, which includes three other children, does not belong to any organized religion or faith, but believes in the Bible and that healing comes from God.
A window into beliefs

The Neumanns told authorities they did not know their daughter had diabetes. They had not taken her to a doctor and were trying to heal her through prayer.


Leilani Neumann's two posts on the Web site provide a window into her beliefs. In a poem titled "I'm Tired of It," she wrote of her determination that the "old life's gotta stop."
"Why do I have to climb this mountain?
"Because I need to get to the top.
"Jesus, it will be worth it, if I don't give out."


On Feb. 28, she posted a long essay titled "They Shall Speak with New Tongues." She wrote of praying in tongues and described a "Women of Favor" group she was leading at the coffee shop that she and her husband operate. She describes a vision of leading others to speak in tongues. And in one passage, she described how God talked to her.
"Many times the Lord has told me things that are going to happen many years down the road, but this was the first time I had experienced this kind of preparation for that very day," she wrote.


One couple she was able to reach through prayer - and e-mail as it turned out - were the Wormgoors, who traveled from California to Wisconsin.


"The hunger for God's word in Randall (Wormgoor) has led them all the way to WI to study with Dale and I," she wrote. "Althea (Wormgoor) had been fighting receiving the Holy Spirit as the scripture says, because of prior teaching."


On Sunday, Randall and Althea Wormgoor spoke with emergency dispatchers in a 911 call placed from the Neumanns' home, authorities told The Associated Press.


With screaming and wailing in the background, and the sound of a barking dog, Randall Wormgoor told the dispatcher, "The girl is not breathing."
The dispatcher then spoke with Althea Wormgoor and provided instructions to perform CPR.
"Did she respond? Did she respond?" Althea Wormgoor shouted as someone attempted to revive the girl.
 
  • #370
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=733395

"Ness later contacted the dispatch center to inform authorities that "water may have been poured down the girl's throat," the document says.

Marathon County Medical Examiner John Larson said that the girl "was found to be in an emaciated state," according to the document.
Appeared malnourished

In an interview with the Journal Sentinel, Larson said, "I think it's probably safe to say she was gaunt, drawn, extremely slender. She certainly had an appearance of malnutrition and dehydration."


According to the Web site of the American Diabetes Association, the body burns fat to get energy in ketoacidosis."
 
  • #371
Thanks for posting those interesting links, scarpetta. It does give deeper insight into this family. It sounds like they had seen/experienced faith healings before. If prayer had worked in prior situations for them, they would be predisposed to believe it would work again.

The website guy that they called doesn't really sound like he was their spiritual leader - like a Jim Jones or something - but just someone who shared their beliefs and who prayed with them.
 
  • #372
Thanks for posting those interesting links, scarpetta. It does give deeper insight into this family. It sounds like they had seen/experienced faith healings before. If prayer had worked in prior situations for them, they would be predisposed to believe it would work again.

The website guy that they called doesn't really sound like he was their spiritual leader - like a Jim Jones or something - but just someone who shared their beliefs and who prayed with them.

SCM, I think you are right about this guy not being their direct spiritual leader because I think he is in Florida. But what do you think about this guy's "ministry" through books, tapes, online blogs, etc having just as powerful of an effect as if it was in person? The mom posted a couple of times on his site. I know that is not proof that he was her leader no more than this website is my leader. But she also had a book by him and they confiscated videos and her computer as well. She gravitates towards this guys "ministry" and then it seems that in her post on his website she begins to see herself as having the same type of "ministry." She also said that she was taking on more of a "teaching" role as though she was considered a spiritual leader of sorts herself.

The couple in their home the day Madeline died is the same couple mentioned in her online post several times.

The County Medical Examiner said that this child had likely been ill for a month before she died. That is around the same time that her mom posted on this guy's website about her special abilities, a month before her daughter died.

This is all speculation and trying to put puzzle pieces together when we are still missing so many pieces, but it is something to keep in mind as more information is released.
 
  • #373
She certainly had an appearance of malnutrition and dehydration.
And the parents didn't notice this because???
Notice the article stated that she'd only gotten worse in the last day or 2. BS you don't look malnourished and dehydrated in 2 days.
 
  • #374
SCM, I think you are right about this guy not being their direct spiritual leader because I think he is in Florida. But what do you think about this guy's "ministry" through books, tapes, online blogs, etc having just as powerful of an effect as if it was in person? The mom posted a couple of times on his site. I know that is not proof that he was her leader no more than this website is my leader. But she also had a book by him and they confiscated videos and her computer as well. She gravitates towards this guys "ministry" and then it seems that in her post on his website she begins to see herself as having the same type of "ministry." She also said that she was taking on more of a "teaching" role as though she was considered a spiritual leader of sorts herself.

The couple in their home the day Madeline died is the same couple mentioned in her online post several times.


The County Medical Examiner said that this child had likely been ill for a month before she died. That is around the same time that her mom posted on this guy's website about her special abilities, a month before her daughter died.

This is all speculation and trying to put puzzle pieces together when we are still missing so many pieces, but it is something to keep in mind as more information is released.

The parents refused to call for a doctor at all, yet they called this guy twice...they called him as they were following the ambulance carrying their dead child? Most people would be calling their mom or someone very close to the family first, if they even had the presence of mind to make phone calls so soon. ( I guess they believed in cell phones, too, or else they would have just communicated to Eell through their special abilities). I'm guessing they thought of this guy as their religious leader. Americas Last Days. I am not convinced they were not praying for her to 'be taken'.
 
  • #375
SCM, I think you are right about this guy not being their direct spiritual leader because I think he is in Florida. But what do you think about this guy's "ministry" through books, tapes, online blogs, etc having just as powerful of an effect as if it was in person? The mom posted a couple of times on his site. I know that is not proof that he was her leader no more than this website is my leader. But she also had a book by him and they confiscated videos and her computer as well. She gravitates towards this guys "ministry" and then it seems that in her post on his website she begins to see herself as having the same type of "ministry." She also said that she was taking on more of a "teaching" role as though she was considered a spiritual leader of sorts herself.

The couple in their home the day Madeline died is the same couple mentioned in her online post several times.

The County Medical Examiner said that this child had likely been ill for a month before she died. That is around the same time that her mom posted on this guy's website about her special abilities, a month before her daughter died.

This is all speculation and trying to put puzzle pieces together when we are still missing so many pieces, but it is something to keep in mind as more information is released.


I think that website and that man was important to her and had impacted her life deeply, definitely. I agree that she seemed to feel like she had spiritual powers - you may be correct about the month timing. The website gives us a small idea of where her had was, so to speak.
 
  • #376
I think that website and that man was important to her and had impacted her life deeply, definitely. I agree that she seemed to feel like she had spiritual powers - you may be correct about the month timing. The website gives us a small idea of where her had was, so to speak.

Give me a break.
 
  • #377
And the parents didn't notice this because???
Notice the article stated that she'd only gotten worse in the last day or 2. BS you don't look malnourished and dehydrated in 2 days.

I know, philamena. It is heartbreaking to think of how long Kara suffered. Her body consuming all of her body fat in a desperate attempt to survive. It was Eell who said only in the last day or two; the medical examiner said a month. I'll go with the ME and some other posters here who know how ketoacidosis kills, not some web preacher who is jonesing for the end of time.
 
  • #378
The parents refused to call for a doctor at all, yet they called this guy twice...they called him as they were following the ambulance carrying their dead child? Most people would be calling their mom or someone very close to the family first, if they even had the presence of mind to make phone calls so soon. ( I guess they believed in cell phones, too, or else they would have just communicated to Eell through their special abilities). I'm guessing they thought of this guy as their religious leader. Americas Last Days. I am not convinced they were not praying for her to 'be taken'.

One of the articles states that they were asking Eells to pray with them for her to resurrect, and this was while they were in the car following the ambulance. They were also on the phone with him the day before, on Saturday, and I am assuming based on what he preaches on his website that he may have encouraged them to keep praying and not take her to a doctor. I am basing this on the fact that he said people with guns are safer than doctors and pharmacists are the same as witches. I agree with you Truly that they phoned quite a few people about their daughter. When a child is sick and the parents are calling different people about it, that seems to indicate that it was serious. How many calls does a mom make to relatives and religious leaders when their child has a runny nose? I don't think the article mentioned their phone records as being included in the things confiscated, but it seems that they would be as another means of establishing a time line.
 
  • #379
....and I am assuming based on what he preaches on his website that he may have encouraged them to keep praying and not take her to a doctor. I am basing this on the fact that he said people with guns are safer than doctors and pharmacists are the same as witches. I agree with you Truly that they phoned quite a few people about their daughter. When a child is sick and the parents are calling different people about it, that seems to indicate that it was serious. How many calls does a mom make to relatives and religious leaders when their child has a runny nose? I don't think the article mentioned their phone records as being included in the things confiscated, but it seems that they would be as another means of establishing a time line.

Yes - I do think Eels would have encouraged them. He was about the same things they were about - that's why the called him for support.
 
  • #380

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