GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[concernedperson]

Splain Loocy?

I really think this is a lame excuse to cover for their own inadequacies. There is no way normal thinking parents wouldn't be johnny on the spot for getting their child care. It is unbelievable to me. It is an excuse for stupid deadly behavior.

I believe in prayer don't get me wrong but I also believe in emergency rooms.

 

[scarpetta]

I really think this is a lame excuse to cover for their own inadequacies. There is no way normal thinking parents wouldn't be johnny on the spot for getting their child care. It is unbelievable to me. It is an excuse for stupid deadly behavior.

I believe in prayer don't get me wrong but I also believe in emergency rooms.

I have tried to put myself in their shoes and have tried to take on that religious mindset in that situation.

I thought...

What would I think would be the worst thing that could happen to ME if I showed a lack of faith and took my child to the hospital?

What do I think God will do to me if I do? Specifically what?

Are there any OTHER areas in my life where I have shown a lack of faith and yet God did not "punish" me for that?

I seem to be fine with all OTHER contemporary "tools" .....so why did I choose DOCTORS as the thing that represents a lack of faith to me? Who else sees it that way too?

Where did I get that idea that Doctors were SO wrong to utilize as compared to other means of making life better?

Am I so afraid of what might happen because of a lapse in faith that I will hold out until the bitter and deathly end just to avoid it?

Where did I get the idea that a "weakness" for my daughter would result in a penalty of some kind?

What is it that is causing me to call religious people, friends, and relatives about my daughter in order to let them know that I am not going to take her to the doctor but would like for them to pray?

Why am I calling people that I know are going to want me to take her to the doctor and telling them I am not going to?

Who am I making sure I call when it gets the most dire and while I am still refusing to take her to the doctor?

 

[concernedperson]

I have tried to put myself in their shoes and have tried to take on that religious mindset in that situation.

I thought...

What would I think would be the worst thing that could happen to ME if I showed a lack of faith and took my child to the hospital?

What do I think God will do to me if I do? Specifically what?

Are there any OTHER areas in my life where I have shown a lack of faith and yet God did not "punish" me for that?

I seem to be fine with all OTHER contemporary "tools" .....so why did I choose DOCTORS as the thing that represents a lack of faith to me? Who else sees it that way too?

Where did I get that idea that Doctors were SO wrong to utilize as compared to other means of making life better?

Am I so afraid of what might happen because of a lapse in faith that I will hold out until the bitter and deathly end just to avoid it?

Where did I get the idea that a "weakness" for my daughter would result in a penalty of some kind?

What is it that is causing me to call religious people, friends, and relatives about my daughter in order to let them know that I am not going to take her to the doctor but would like for them to pray?

Why am I calling people that I know are going to want me to take her to the doctor and telling them I am not going to?

Who am I making sure I call when it gets the most dire and while I am still refusing to take her to the doctor?

To me this is the criminal act.

 

[2sisters]

This whole thing borders on insanity. This child is dead way too soon. Why? For what? Is that what God wanted? IMO faith healers are nothing but flimflam men and I really don't feel there is any such thing as faith healers.

 

[Truly]

What would I think would be the worst thing that could happen to ME if I showed a lack of faith and took my child to the hospital?

What do I think God will do to me if I do? Specifically what?

Precisely. And even if the answer was 'God will strike ME dead on the spot', every single true parent would say, 'Fine. It's a deal. So long as my child remains alive.'

 

[2sisters]

I honestly can't see God condemming anyone to hell for taking a child to a doctor and treating a life threatening illness. Any religion that feels that way frankly is not for me or the kids I can about.

 

[philamena]

I know, philamena. It is heartbreaking to think of how long Kara suffered. Her body consuming all of her body fat in a desperate attempt to survive. It was Eell who said only in the last day or two; the medical examiner said a month. I'll go with the ME and some other posters here who know how ketoacidosis kills, not some web preacher who is jonesing for the end of time.

hey there Truly,
Makes no sense to me either.
IMO, the parents themselves were playing God.
You're about her body fighting....her body was desperately trying to heal itself.

 

[philamena]

I really think this is a lame excuse to cover for their own inadequacies. There is no way normal thinking parents wouldn't be johnny on the spot for getting their child care. It is unbelievable to me. It is an excuse for stupid deadly behavior.

I believe in prayer don't get me wrong but I also believe in emergency rooms.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[concernedperson]

Precisely. And even if the answer was 'God will strike ME dead on the spot', every single true parent would say, 'Fine. It's a deal. So long as my child remains alive.'

Absolutely. No question or doubt in my mind.

 

[scarpetta]

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20080328181553848

Wisconsin Law Sanctifies Child Homicide in Name of Faith

Friday, March 28 2008 @ 06:15 PM EDT

Edited by: Michael Hess



Memorialize 11-Year-Old Madeline by Removing Faith Exemption



BBSNews 2008-03-28 -- (FFRF) By Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor.



The death of an 11-year-old child from illness is always tragic, but what puts Madeline Kara Neumann's death last Sunday in a different class is that it is unforgiveable. Madeleine's long descent into diabetic ketoacidosis was unnecessary, preventable and the result of willful negligence on the part of her bible-believing parents.


It's one thing for an adult to choose prayer over medicine. But it is sheer child sacrifice to permit parents to eschew medical diagnosis and treatment of ill offspring. Parents do not own their children, much less have the right to endanger their children's lives by callously disregarding medical needs in the name of religion.


What's even more appalling is the ambivalent reaction: "Ethicists say case unclear," reports the Wausau Daily Herald. The Herald quoted bioethicist Dr. Norman Fost of the University of Wisconsin Medical school warning that it's important not to be moralistic or pass judgment on parents who think they can heal a child through prayer: "They believe they're helping their child; they love their child, and they believe prayer has an effect."


However deluded the parents may be, the rest of us need not countenance or indulge that dangerous delusion.


Dean Zuleger, the administrator of the Village of Weston, was quoted by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel saying, "There is a general sense of grief and sadness. Because I know the family a bit, there is a great deal of concern for their well-being." The parents' well-being?


"Death draws out difficult issues" read a headline in the Journal Sentinel. While Madeline's drawn-out death, involving nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, weight loss and weakness, is very difficult to read about, there is nothing difficult at all about deciding where the blame lies. "The prayer of faith will heal the sick," according to James 5:15. The fault lies in society's laudatory attitude toward a "holy book" which teaches superstition and faith-healing, whose passages are latched onto by bible literalists, and whose obedience to such injunctions has been given a pass in the criminal statutes of many states.


The mother, Leilani Neumann, of Weston, Wis., publicly announced: "We need healing. We are going through the healing process." What about the healing process her daughter required? This helpless dependent of a middle-class family had last seen a doctor at the age of three, and recently had been pulled out of public schools for religious home-schooling, possibly to cover up symptoms of her illness, which, according to medical experts, would have surfaced at least six months ago.


Legally, the question will revolve over whether the family recognized the seriousness of the illness. A chronology has emerged which belies the family's claim that they did not realize how sick Madeline was, including logs of their calls around the country to relatives (who notified authorities just before her death that Madeline was seriously ill) and to David Eels, whose Unleavened Bread Ministries operates AmericasLastDays.com. Eels, of Pensacola, Fla., admitted he prayed for Madeline the day before she died, and that the family phoned him Sunday, as they followed an ambulance with their dead daughter to the hospital, asking him "if I would pray that the Lord would spare her and raise her up, which I did."


Leilani Neumann told reporters she and her husband are not worried about an investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."


Their "best" was not good enough. Nor is the religious exemption provided for by Wisconsin statutes, similar to what many states have adopted under pressure of the Christian Science lobby. What they don't realize is that doing nothing to help their daughter is parental negligence, which is criminal. The parents can still be charged, at least with some form of negligence or child abuse. But more action is required.


As a memorial to the painful, frightening and needless death of Madeline Kara Neumann, the Wisconsin Legislature needs to finally show some gumption, and remove from the statutes its callous exemption sanctifying child homicide in the name of faith.

 

[scarpetta]

Photo of Parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/28/wprayer128.xm

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080326/WDH0101/80326147/1981
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[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The following are excerpts of what the aunt, Ariel Gomez, told the dispatcher:

* "My sister in law is, her daughter's severely, severely sick and she believes her daughter is in a coma. And, she's very religious so she's refusing to take (Kara) to the hospital, so I was hoping maybe somebody could go over there."

• "My sister in law, um, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors..."

• "(The mother) told us she believes she's in a coma."

After taking down the aunt's address in California and phone number, the dispatcher asked her if they should send an ambulance.

• She responds: "Please. I mean, she's refusing. She's gonna fight it so, she's gonna fight it."

• "We've been trying to get her to take (Kara) to the hospital for a week, a few days now so." [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The following is a timeline of calls to Marathon County Sheriff’s dispatchers on Sunday related to Neumann's death:

2:02 p.m. – Received a call on a non-emergency line from Neumann’s aunt in California. The aunt did not know the spelling of the family’s last name and did not have an address. Dispatchers could not find the family in its computer system.

2:06 p.m. – Aunt calls back, gave name of Neumann on Maplewood Drive, but did not have a house number. Dispatchers could not find the family and road matched in their system.

2:33 p.m. – The aunt calls back with address.

2:35 p.m. – Everest Metro Police and Weston Fire and EMS dispatched to 9807 Maplewood Drive in the town of Weston. Everest Metro Police heads to home immediately after dispatched.

2:36 p.m. – Weston EMS en route

2:38 p.m. – A 911 call is made from the Neumann home for a medical emergency.

2:42 p.m. – Everest Metro Police on scene

2:44 p.m. – Weston EMS on scene

2:48 p.m. – Weston EMS leaves home for Saint Clare's Hospital.

3:05 p.m. – Weston EMS arrives at Saint Clare's.

3:30 p.m. – Pronounced dead at Saint Clare's. [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/GPG0101/803280678/1207
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The four-minute 911 call from the Neumanns' friends came in at 2:38 p.m. Sunday, after police and an ambulance had been dispatched to the home, police said. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the 911 call, Randall Wormgoor told the dispatcher that the "girl is not breathing" before he handed the phone to Althea Wormgoor, who got details from the dispatcher about performing CPR. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Is she breathing? Is she breathing? Is she breathing?" the woman asked frantically. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Someone in the background hollered, "No." [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"No, she is not," Althea Wormgoor told the dispatcher. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The dispatcher urged everyone to calm down and reported that help was on the way. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Did she respond to the breaths at all?" the dispatcher asked. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"No, no, no. I don't think so," Althea Wormgoor responded, her voice choked with emotion. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When people in the home realized emergency help was outside, they became excited.
[/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is yelling and what appears to be weeping on the tape. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Over here," someone yelled. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The child was rushed to a hospital where she was pronounced dead, police said. [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/17057921.html#

Audio of both 911 Calls together.

 

[scarpetta]

While both Mr. and Mrs. Wormgoor are on the phone with 911 there is someone in the background praying loudly in a "Pentecostal" fashion. To anyone not familiar with what that sounds like, it could be mistaken for "wailing with grief." But the rise and fall cadence is the sound of a form of praying "in the spirit." It is a very loud form of praying and there are generally no actual words involved, unlike when the Pentecostals pray or speak "in tongues."

I am curious to find out if this was the mom praying while, at the time of that 911 call, still no one had attempted CPR. If no one was performing CPR and the tape also indicates that no one had checked her breathing yet, then what were the mom and dad doing while the friends were calling 911?

The dad said that he had attempted CPR, but this could not have been attempted until after the dispatcher suggested it, because Mrs. Wormgoor asks everyone in the room if CPR had been attempted and the answer was no.

It sounds as though it is Mr. Wormgoor and Mr. Neumann who are attempting to do what the dispatcher is relaying through Mrs. Wormgoor. The article indicates that the people who were in the home with the Neumann's when the ambulance arrived were the Wormgoors.
That leaves the mom as the one praying loudly as everyone else is trying to revive the daughter.

 

[Pandora]

In Eels latest press release (4/02/08), I found this interesting:
"Yesterday morning I was getting ready to leave home when I heard someone at the door and found a local reporter with questions. I told him that we do not condemn anyone for going to doctors, nor did the subject ever come up when I prayed with the Neumanns those two times. I asked him, "As a matter of fact, do you know where I am going right now?" He smiled and said, "To the doctor?" He was right. I was on my way to carry a friend and his wife to their doctor for the second time in two weeks -- and I never spoke against this to them nor condemned them, for it is according to one's own faith, as Jesus said. I listened to the man's report later that evening and it was better than most, except that it was said that I was "a self-proclaimed prophet." I have never called myself a prophet."

Things that make you go, hmmmmmm. . . . .

 

[scarpetta]

In Eels latest press release (4/02/08), I found this interesting:
"Yesterday morning I was getting ready to leave home when I heard someone at the door and found a local reporter with questions. I told him that we do not condemn anyone for going to doctors, nor did the subject ever come up when I prayed with the Neumanns those two times. I asked him, "As a matter of fact, do you know where I am going right now?" He smiled and said, "To the doctor?" He was right. I was on my way to carry a friend and his wife to their doctor for the second time in two weeks -- and I never spoke against this to them nor condemned them, for it is according to one's own faith, as Jesus said. I listened to the man's report later that evening and it was better than most, except that it was said that I was "a self-proclaimed prophet." I have never called myself a prophet."

Things that make you go, hmmmmmm. . . . .

Let the lying begin.

He calls himself a prophet in every word he preaches that he claims is coming from God.

If someone claims to be hearing directly from God, and then repeating it to others as authoritative....that person is claiming to be a prophet.

"I have never called myself a prophet" is the same as "I have never claimed to be directly inspired."

His out is using the word "myself" as in he never called himself that. But yes he did every second he allowed all his followers to call him that without contradiction, and every time he used the phrase "God said to me."

Pandora, do yo have a link? I would like to include the other parts that I know are there, the parts where he does the blaming thing...blaming the media, blaming unbelievers, blaming in a vague way even the Neumann's, blaming anyone but "myself."

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=e-book2

"For thirty years it has been prophesied of the great light David would share with God’s people. Since he was a year old in the Lord he has been receiving word of knowledge and wisdom concerning doctrines and end time events. You will be thrilled with the explosion of knowledge of end time events and characters."

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=pressrelease3

(Bold type by website)

Third Press Release from Unleavened Bread Ministries Regarding the Death of 11-Year-Old Madeline Kara Neumann​

David Eells - 4/02/08​

The media is doing what comes natural to them but those who proclaim to know Christ should know better. Over the fateful weekend of Kara’s death and the following week, I have come to know the Neumanns and I know they loved their daughter more than their own life. They sacrificed their own life to minister to others the Good News of Jesus in their coffee shop ministry while those who sit and do nothing judge them. I see that at MOST the Neumanns are guilty of trying to go where their faith did not take them. This is a mistake that even Jesus’ disciples made. When they wondered about this He corrected them with "because of your unbelief," as He could many of us. Jesus did not crucify them for this mistake, as is happening in the media. In fact, He did not even treat sinners that way, saying to the self-righteous judges, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone." The Pharisees, who proved to be more righteous than many today, backed off quickly when they heard that.

Because Jesus did not depart from the Word of God, these self-righteous judges convened a kangaroo court with false witnesses and no representation for Him to condemn Him. Jesus did not defend Himself from the false witnesses and neither have the Neumanns. I am honored to know them, more that the thousands of ‘Christians’ who have bought the gossip and fabrications spread through the media. Don’t they know that without "two or three witnesses" of SIN we are forbidden to condemn anyone? …And when in the New Covenant is anyone condemned for a mistake rather than willful disobedience? Jesus said, "With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you." This being true, who will be their lawyer when their time comes? The apostle James said, "For judgment [is] without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment."

The frenzy to get ratings at others' expense reminded me of the prophecies of the judgment of Jesus: "Many bulls have compassed me; Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gape upon me with their mouth, [As] a ravening and a roaring lion…" "For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet." Are you sure you would not crucify Jesus today? He said, "the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me." The Neumanns are not close to the least.

The self-righteous say that they weep for Kara but she says with Jesus, "Weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children." The living have much to worry about but not the righteous dead. "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come]. He entereth into peace; they rest in their beds, each one that walketh in his uprightness. But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the harlot. Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and put out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood…"

Yesterday morning I was getting ready to leave home when I heard someone at the door and found a local reporter with questions. I told him that we do not condemn anyone for going to doctors, nor did the subject ever come up when I prayed with the Neumanns those two times. I asked him, "As a matter of fact, do you know where I am going right now?" He smiled and said, "To the doctor?" He was right. I was on my way to carry a friend and his wife to their doctor for the second time in two weeks -- and I never spoke against this to them nor condemned them, for it is according to one's own faith, as Jesus said. I listened to the man's report later that evening and it was better than most, except that it was said that I was "a self-proclaimed prophet." I have never called myself a prophet.

Many are sharing their opinions about the doctrine of healing but the scriptures warn that we are not permitted to have our own opinion outside of scriptures. {Rev.22:18} I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: {19} and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book. ... {Gal.1:9} As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.

Those who know me know that I work 16 hours a day with no days off to serve God’s children because I love them. I ask you who have wisdom and want to be forgiven of your own mistakes to not sit on the sidelines to judge those who are doing their best to bring in the harvest. As Jesus said, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Another time He said, "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due. So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts."

God bless you,
David Eells

 

[scarpetta]

How the media is to blame:
“The media is doing what comes natural to them but those who proclaim to know Christ should know better.”

“The frenzy to get ratings at others' expense reminded me…”

How the Neumann’s are to blame:
“I see that at MOST the Neumanns are guilty of trying to go where their faith did not take them. This is a mistake that even Jesus’ disciples made. When they wondered about this He corrected them with "because of your unbelief," as He could many of us. Jesus did not crucify them for this mistake, as is happening in the media.”

How everyone else it to blame:
“Many are sharing their opinions about the doctrine of healing but the scriptures warn that we are not permitted to have our own opinion outside of scriptures.”

Why he is not the one to blame:
“Those who know me know that I work 16 hours a day with no days off to serve God’s children because I love them. I ask you who have wisdom and want to be forgiven of your own mistakes to not sit on the sidelines to judge those who are doing their best to bring in the harvest.”