Found Deceased WI - Kathleen Ryan, adult, teacher, car found burned with body inside, St. Francis, 2 Feb 2019

[realanastasia]

That scenario was difficult for your family but there is no evidence whatsoever that Kathleen was suicidal. She did not sit down on train tracks and allow a train to kill her.

JMO

I respectfully submit that the post by itsmevkb poignantly illustrates the sad reality that many folks who choose to end their own lives often (either by happenstance or by design) leave behind no “evidence” that proves—or even suggests—their suicidal intentions. While I am personally still unconvinced that Kathleen’s death was a suicide, the mental health profession does lately seem to be making efforts to increase public awareness of “spontaneous” suicide (that is, suicide which is NOT preceded by any of the “warning signs” most adults have been conditioned to look out for, i.e. giving away treasured possessions, withdrawing from contact with friends/family, displaying unusually high spirits or uncharacteristically energetic behavior, etc.), so I wouldn’t say a lack of “evidence” necessarily rules out its possibility in this situation.
From the article linked below: “But in this country, many of those who commit suicide have received little or no professional help. Indeed, they rarely tell anyone beforehand of their plan — when there is one. Often the act is impulsive.
According to Matthew Nock, a professor of psychology at Harvard, the wide majority of people who die by suicide ‘explicitly deny suicidal thoughts or intentions in their last communications before dying.’”
How Suicide Quietly Morphed Into a Public Health Crisis

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo and just my own feelings etc...but I believe adults have a “right to die” if circumstances have made their lives unlivable, for example a degenerative illness, etc...but cannot imagine doing so in a manner which Katherine died. Or to cause a major investigation, endless questions, etc...and also can’t see someone else thinking that a death like hers would be seen a suicide if I were trying to stage it. I really can’t come up with a scenario that sits right with me...

 

[MyBelle]

Suicide is never an easy thing for LE to have to say or for families to accept. No-one is suggesting this not be investigated, and as a homicide, but when LE comes out and says that they can't find any proof of anyone doing this we're sort of left with suicide being high on their list of what happened. Hopefully, someone will come forward with some information, or they will find some kind of electronic evidence that sheds more light on what happened.

Where do you get that suicide is high on the LE list? LE has said they are continuing to investigate electronic communications and also need to do more interviews. If they believe it was suicide, they won't spend resources continuing to investigate.

Sons ask for answers in Milwaukee mother's mysterious death

 

[MyBelle]

I respectfully submit that the post by itsmevkb poignantly illustrates the sad reality that many folks who choose to end their own lives often (either by happenstance or by design) leave behind no “evidence” that proves—or even suggests—their suicidal intentions. While I am personally still unconvinced that Kathleen’s death was a suicide, the mental health profession does lately seem to be making efforts to increase public awareness of “spontaneous” suicide (that is, suicide which is NOT preceded by any of the “warning signs” most adults have been conditioned to look out for, i.e. giving away treasured possessions, withdrawing from contact with friends/family, displaying unusually high spirits or uncharacteristically energetic behavior, etc.), so I wouldn’t say a lack of “evidence” necessarily rules out its possibility in this situation.
From the article linked below: “But in this country, many of those who commit suicide have received little or no professional help. Indeed, they rarely tell anyone beforehand of their plan — when there is one. Often the act is impulsive.
According to Matthew Nock, a professor of psychology at Harvard, the wide majority of people who die by suicide ‘explicitly deny suicidal thoughts or intentions in their last communications before dying.’”
How Suicide Quietly Morphed Into a Public Health Crisis

There is no evidence whatsoever that this was a suicide and investigators have said they are still investigating KR's death. Let's stick to this case and not make generalizations. Thanks.

JMO

 

[Rosiebones]

Coroner IDs torched body as missing Milwaukee woman
Cooper said he's awaiting additional testing before releasing the preliminary cause of Kathleen's death. "I have been in close communication with the Ryan family and extend my deepest condolences to them," he said."

The investigation has only proven that the body was Kathleen. All of this ongoing investigation is to determine the manner and means of death to issue a COD. Therefore, painful as it is, everything must be considered.

LE has said they have found no evidence so far to support any particular point of view on this case and thus, are still investigating all ways forward.

 

[nyonge]

There is no evidence whatsoever that this was a suicide and investigators have said they are still investigating KR's death. Let's stick to this case and not make generalizations. Thanks.

JMO

"There is nothing that has brought us to any conclusion that somebody did this to Kathleen," said Lake County Sheriff's Office spokesperson Sgt. Christopher Covelli. "We don't have any evidence somebody caused this to happen to Kathleen."
Sons ask for answers in Milwaukee mother's mysterious death

 

[Rosiebones]

Wow and they haven't seen her car on that date in that time frame?!

They very well may have seen the car and whoever was in it. But, that would be the very information LE would withhold from the public IMO

 

[realanastasia]

There is no evidence whatsoever that this was a suicide and investigators have said they are still investigating KR's death. Let's stick to this case and not make generalizations. Thanks.

JMO

My point is that a lack of “evidence...that this was a suicide” does not conclusively rule out suicide as the cause of death in this case. Neither does the ongoing investigation into KR’s death (not an investigation into her “murder”), the cause of which is still undetermined.

 

[Curiousobserver]

They very well may have seen the car and whoever was in it. But, that would be the very information LE would withhold from the public IMO

There are three cameras on the poles at that intersection- from Google Street view. LE might have some better timing and information on who was driving that they are keeping to themselves (even from the family) until they track down some other loose ends.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That scenario was difficult for your family but there is no evidence whatsoever that Kathleen was suicidal. She did not sit down on train tracks and allow a train to kill her.

JMO

I think this is a very valid, and key point that must be kept in mind at all times, until, and if, this case is solved. Its obvious LE isn't to that point yet.

If LE was sure this was suicide they wouldn't be continuing the investigation. Thank goodness they are still working hard to do so.

Imo, We simply can't assume her death was a suicide based on what any suicide victims may or may not have done, when those were deemed by the ME to be suicides.

There is no evidence her death was a suicide, and I think it's very hurtful, not only to her memory, but to her family to just assume facts not even in evidence. There are simply no known facts supporting suicide. NONE.

Imo, LE finds her death very suspicious, and that is why they are continuing to investigate what really happened to this lovely woman.

There would be camera footage of Kathleen buying an accelerant most likely gasoline or there would be gasoline containers missing from her home. Imo,LE has found nothing pointing she bought or brought accelerant with her.

And it would take a large dousing of a highly flammable accelerant doused in several areas to cause this amount of destruction to the vehicle, and body.

Wasn't one of the doors cracked open a little? If so, the firestarter knew fires needs air/drafts which would consume the inside as well.

I hate to think she was still alive, and tried to get out, but was so injured, and dying at the time she was unable to do so.

There is no logical reason for her to change seats to comitt suicide. It wouldn't make any difference.

Imo it is logical someone had forced her back in her vehicle making her sit on the passenger side with the suspect driving.

We have seen several cases where the suspect forced the victim back into their vehicle making them sit on the passenger side. The suspect is then in control of driving the vehicle forcing the victim to sit beside them in the front passenger seat.

Jmo

 

[mks762]

I just went back to Google Maps and looked at the intersection of Stearns School Road and Skokie Highway ( Rt. 41) and there are cameras at the intersection lights in all four directions. Also, the road on the other side of the light from Skokie Highway looks just like the driveway that is shown in several of the news highlights.
I bet that LE has some good pictures of the car and occupants as it went through the intersection.

Unfortunately those are not cameras. My mom works for a company that maintains and installs traffic camera for our city and state. Unless Wisconsin has extremely different cameras than the ones she's ever seen. There could be a camera at the top of that long pole at the light where the road dead ends and also possibly the pole that's not connected to one of the lights but looks like a light for when it gets dark, that could be a camera. But like someone suggested, those are in fact just sensors on the actual stop light poles- not cameras unfortunately

 

[sumzero]

It really is perplexing. Is it accident, foul play, or suicide? If it were an accident, how did she end up in that driveway? And what would cause a fire suddenly to engulf her while she was sitting in the car? If it were foul play, what did they want from her -- money, credit cards, her vehicle? Is there evidence that someone hated her enough to kill her? This is where LE's statement is revealing. There is no evidence that "someone did this to Kathleen." So, to this point, they've probably found no obvious signs of foul play. If it were suicide, we'd probably need to know if she had a history of depression. Her sister posted in this thread that Kathleen would never take her own life. So, where does that leave us? It really is baffling.

 

[nyonge]

We have seen several cases where the suspect forced the victim back into their vehicle making them sit on the passenger side. The suspect is then in control of driving the vehicle forcing the victim to sit beside them in the front passenger seat.

Could you provide examples?

 

[kay74]

It really is perplexing. Is it accident, foul play, or suicide? If it were an accident, how did she end up in that driveway? And what would cause a fire suddenly to engulf her while she was sitting in the car? If it were foul play, what did they want from her -- money, credit cards, her vehicle? Is there evidence that someone hated her enough to kill her? This is where LE's statement is revealing. There is no evidence that "someone did this to Kathleen." So, to this point, they've probably found no obvious signs of foul play. If it were suicide, we'd probably need to know if she had a history of depression. Her sister posted in this thread that Kathleen would never take her own life. So, where does that leave us? It really is baffling.

It's not baffling. The investigators have to get whoever did this. In the city I used to live in, there were two abductions of women in their cars at a shopping mall just in the past year! One of them, woman was forced out of her car, the suspect later crashed it and was caught, another one the woman was forced in the passenger seat and had to drive with the suspect and when he stopped, she jumped out of the car, Very lucky woman! This was a very nice shopping mall.

 

[sumzero]

It's not baffling. The investigators have to get whoever did this. In the city I used to live in, there were two abductions of women in their cars at a shopping mall just in the past year! One of them, woman was forced out of her car, the suspect later crashed it and was caught, another one the woman was forced in the passenger seat and had to drive with the suspect and when he stopped, she jumped out of the car, Very lucky woman! This was a very nice shopping mall.

You think something similar happened to Kathleen? Tell me more. What did they want from her? What did they get? And why the fire?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It really is perplexing. Is it accident, foul play, or suicide? If it were an accident, how did she end up in that driveway? And what would cause a fire suddenly to engulf her while she was sitting in the car? If it were foul play, what did they want from her -- money, credit cards, her vehicle? Is there evidence that someone hated her enough to kill her? This is where LE's statement is revealing. There is no evidence that "someone did this to Kathleen." So, to this point, they've probably found no obvious signs of foul play. If it were suicide, we'd probably need to know if she had a history of depression. Her sister posted in this thread that Kathleen would never take her own life. So, where does that leave us? It really is baffling.

Unfortunately it takes time to know these answers, and even LE doesnt have any answers either although they are continuing to investigate the case thoroughly

This shows me LE is not convinced it was suicide nor do they have any evidence supporting it either.

Sadly, most of the evidence was destroyed in the fire, and to Kathleen herself.

We have seen other suspects use this same MO in order to destroy evidence that would have been found on/inside the vehicle leaving the dead victim inside to also be consumed in the fire.

Even stranger home invasion murder suspects have set fire to the homes with their murder victims left inside with the intention of the victim's bodies also being destroyed. When done it's always to destroy evidence.

Btw, when did LE release that statement you have mentioned in your post? Was it recently or when the investigation was first in it's infancy? TYVMIA, sumzero.

I remember Dru Shogen ( not sure I have the spelling or name right-sorry) but anyway she was taken right in broad daylight in a Target parking lot iirc At the time no one saw it happening at the time.

Tragically so many of these kind of cases do happen right in the middle of broad daylight now.

It seems many suspects are doing violent crimes during the daytime now, and, in most of those cases, they too, had no eye witnesses that saw them take place.

Why many are changing the usual old MO of doing violent crimes in the cloak of darkness, no longer seems to apply to so many suspects who now seem to be hitting more often now during daylight hours.

I've often wondered why the change. Is it because they have learned most people arent observant, and instead are even more preoccupied than ever? Is it because the suspects think it's a way to totally catch the victims off guard, by having a false sense of security since they are out, and about among multiple people? IDRK, but I do know a lot of crimes like this are happening right during daylight hours now.

Kathleen's case is very consistent with other cases where the victims never showed up at a certain location, or went off the radar, only to be found dead under very suspicious circumstances.

Some have taken years or even decades to solve, even after a lengthy investigation had determined the person was a victim of foul play.

Remember in the Phil Spector case it took the ME 7 months to determine LC was a victim of homicide. That ME also ruled out suicide.

I felt all along the family was being kept informed. I'm glad to see that established in one of the links here as well.

Jmo though.

 

[kay74]

You think something similar happened to Kathleen? Tell me more. What did they want from her? What did they get? And why the fire?

I'm sorry to say, you would have to live in a cave to see this doesn't happen. These people grab whatever money they can! The fire is to destroy evidence, no fingerprints, no DNA. Person probably had a record.

 

[TC_MN]

Dru Sjodin, taken from a mall parking lot in the middle of the day. GUILTY - ND - Dru Sjodin, 22, Grand Forks, 22 Nov 2003 - #1

 

[sumzero]

Unfortunately it takes time to know these answers, and even LE doesnt have any answers either although they are continuing to investigate the case thoroughly

This shows me LE is not convinced it was suicide nor do they have any evidence supporting it either.

Sadly, most of the evidence was destroyed in the fire, and to Kathleen herself.

We have seen other suspects use this same MO in order to destroy evidence that would have been found on/inside the vehicle leaving the dead victim inside to also be consumed in the fire.

Even stranger home invasion murder suspects have set fire to the homes with their murder victims left inside with the intention of the victim's bodies also being destroyed. When done it's always to destroy evidence.

Btw, when did LE release that statement you have mentioned in your post? Was it recently or when the investigation was first in it's infancy? TYVMIA, sumzero.

I remember Dru Shogen ( not sure I have the spelling or name right-sorry) but anyway she was taken right in broad daylight in a Target parking lot iirc At the time no one saw it happening at the time.

Tragically so many of these kind of cases do happen right in the middle of broad daylight now.

It seems many suspects are doing violent crimes during the daytime now, and, in most of those cases, they too, had no eye witnesses that saw them take place.

Why many are changing the usual old MO of doing violent crimes in the cloak of darkness, no longer seems to apply to so many suspects who now seem to be hitting more often now during daylight hours.

I've often wondered why the change. Is it because they have learned most people arent observant, and instead are even more preoccupied than ever? Is it because the suspects think it's a way to totally catch the victims off guard, by having a false sense of security since they are out, and about among multiple people? IDRK, but I do know a lot of crimes like this are happening right during daylight hours now.

Kathleen's case is very consistent with other cases where the victims never showed up at a certain location, or went off the radar, only to be found dead under very suspicious circumstances.

Some have taken years or even decades to solve, even after a lengthy investigation had determined the person was a victim of foul play.

Remember in the Phil Spector case it took the ME 7 months to determine LC was a victim of homicide. That ME also ruled out suicide.

I felt all along the family was being kept informed. I'm glad to see that established in one of the links here as well.

Jmo though.

The LE statement is reported in a recent news story. I'm sure there's a link to it in this thread. As much as I understand that these crimes can happen in broad daylight, this one is odd because (1) it wasn't a simple robbery, grabbing cash and taking off; (2) it wasn't a carjacking since the perp(s) didn't take off with the car; and (3) most "mugging" type crimes do not result in the victim sitting, dead, in the passenger seat of a burned-out car. And wouldn't they not only take cash, assuming there was any significant amount, but also credit cards or ATM cards? It doesn't add up for me.

 

[sumzero]

Sons ask for answers in Milwaukee mother's mysterious death