Found Deceased WI - Kathleen Ryan, adult, teacher, car found burned with body inside, St. Francis, 2 Feb 2019

[Tripod]

Must have missed them. I'll go back and have a look. Thanks! (Although I still think suicide by fire doesn't fit typical female suicide cases, I will say that of course not every case fits into the norm)

Welcome, TR! ( one of my very fav fellers!)

 

[Tripod]

In this radio interview with the son, the son states that his Mom and Dad lived together @ 22:20

Lake County Sports Talk, Ep. 71: Zack Ryan

MOO

Bummer. I tried to listen, but couldn't get the show to load. Is it allowed that a segment can be briefly paraphrased here?

 

[Rosiebones]

Google Maps
I wonder if whoever was driving the car thought that the driveway was in fact a road into the County Forest Preserve and stopped when it was discovered to be a private driveway. The driver of the car at that time whoever it was, may have been trying to get into a more secluded area.
I can't come to any reasonable conclusion as to why someone would knowingly choose that driveway and knowing a fire would be much more easily noted by anyone sitting waiting for the light to change, especially when darkness hit at 9 to 10 o'clock.

 

[Joe Friday]

Google Maps
I wonder if whoever was driving the car thought that the driveway was in fact a road into the County Forest Preserve and stopped when it was discovered to be a private driveway. The driver of the car at that time whoever it was, may have been trying to get into a more secluded area.
I can't com48e to any reasonable conclusion as to why someone would knowingly choose that driveway and knowing a fire would be much more easily noted by anyone sitting waiting for the light to change, especially when darkness hit at 9 to 10 o'clock.

In February (winter) it's dark by 6:00 PM in the Chicago area. Actual sunset time on Febuary 2nd was 5:06 PM

Sunrise and sunset times Chicago, February 2019

The car may have been burning/smoldering back in the private drive for some time before it was reported.

Who actually reported the fire would be interesting to know. Was the home owner the one to report the fire? Possibly when they came home or were they home the whole time. To bad they would not allow an interview. Or was the fire reported by a passing motorist.

 

[nyonge]

I went back and re-read the thread again, particularly noting the links to car fire deaths ruled suicides. It is a ghastly notion, I agree, but we must recognize that not only does it occur, but that women do utilize this method. And note the similarities with the case of Ms. Ryan.

 

[SpanishMossAntiques]

A year ago a woman's remains were found in a car that was on fire at the Morton Arboretum - she committed suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning: Woman Found In Burning Vehicle At Morton Arboretum Identified

 

[SpanishMossAntiques]

Here's another one from the Chicago area from 2016: Death of 18-year-old found in burning car may have been a suicide, according to medical examiner

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

In looking for information about how medical examiners rule the cause and manner of death in cases where the body is destroyed by severe decomposition or incineration, I came across this very long, but interesting (MOO) article. The article is the result of an investigation by the Kansas City Star newspaper into the rulings of the Jackson County, Kansas medical examiner's office. In addition to information about the protocols and procedures used by various medical examiners around the U.S., and how M.E.s' rulings affect LE investigations, the article also details a number of cases in which ME's incorrectly ruled on the cause and / or manner of death. I've wondered about questionable ME rulings for a long time in regard to the "Drowning Men" cases. Below, I've copied & pasted some of the main points, but the entire article is worthwhile, IMO. I think some of the points it raises are applicable to Kathleen's death and help explain why only scant and ambiguous information has been released. MOO.

A question of homicide: Rulings by medical examiners raise doubts about protocols

• Forcing death rulings on questionable cases can shut down investigations and turn out to be wrong, experts say. Instead, confusing or evidence-thin cases should be labeled “undetermined,” experts say, leaving them open for more investigation.
• She [M.E. Dudley] stresses that her office isn’t an arm of law enforcement but rather serves a neutral public health role by providing medical opinions.
• But police detectives rely heavily on medical examiner rulings, said Capt. Jeff Emery of the Kansas City homicide unit.
• “If their ruling comes back non-criminal and we have nothing to show otherwise, then the case is closed,” Emery said. The ruling “is a major part of our investigation. You’re looking at the expert witness on death.”
• A medical examiner issues two rulings in every death: one for cause, which is the medical reason a person died, and one for manner of death, which represents the circumstances. There are many possible causes but just five accepted manners: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide and undetermined.
• A doctor can use undetermined as a cause or manner, or both, but it is more commonly used for manner, experts say. An acceptable range is 1 to 5 percent of cases, they said.
• Dudley said that her pathologists aren’t locked in to cause and manner of death.
• She [M.E. Dudley] noted that she generally does not mix her rulings, meaning if she can find a cause, she will find a manner.
• But Schmunk disagreed with that philosophy, saying he could have a gunshot victim but still not know whether the victim died of homicide, suicide or accident. And vice versa, he could have a woman die under suspicious circumstances but not be able to determine a medical cause of death because of decomposition.
• “You need to take into account the scene and circumstances,” he said.
• “We treat cases as unknown until we know otherwise,” said Ken Betz, the office director for the Montgomery County Coroner’s Office in Dayton, Ohio, which autopsies all suspected suicides for one-third of the state. “If you treat a case as a suicide, and believe it’s a suicide, that’s the way it’s going to turn out.”

 

[Rosiebones]

On this Mother's Day weekend, I pray for closure for the whole Ryan family. May they feel their mother's presence among them.

 

[OhThatVictoria]

In looking for information about how medical examiners rule the cause and manner of death in cases where the body is destroyed by severe decomposition or incineration, I came across this very long, but interesting (MOO) article. The article is the result of an investigation by the Kansas City Star newspaper into the rulings of the Jackson County, Kansas medical examiner's office. In addition to information about the protocols and procedures used by various medical examiners around the U.S., and how M.E.s' rulings affect LE investigations, the article also details a number of cases in which ME's incorrectly ruled on the cause and / or manner of death. I've wondered about questionable ME rulings for a long time in regard to the "Drowning Men" cases. Below, I've copied & pasted some of the main points, but the entire article is worthwhile, IMO. I think some of the points it raises are applicable to Kathleen's death and help explain why only scant and ambiguous information has been released. MOO.

A question of homicide: Rulings by medical examiners raise doubts about protocols

• Forcing death rulings on questionable cases can shut down investigations and turn out to be wrong, experts say. Instead, confusing or evidence-thin cases should be labeled “undetermined,” experts say, leaving them open for more investigation.
• She [M.E. Dudley] stresses that her office isn’t an arm of law enforcement but rather serves a neutral public health role by providing medical opinions.
• But police detectives rely heavily on medical examiner rulings, said Capt. Jeff Emery of the Kansas City homicide unit.
• “If their ruling comes back non-criminal and we have nothing to show otherwise, then the case is closed,” Emery said. The ruling “is a major part of our investigation. You’re looking at the expert witness on death.”
• A medical examiner issues two rulings in every death: one for cause, which is the medical reason a person died, and one for manner of death, which represents the circumstances. There are many possible causes but just five accepted manners: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide and undetermined.
• A doctor can use undetermined as a cause or manner, or both, but it is more commonly used for manner, experts say. An acceptable range is 1 to 5 percent of cases, they said.
• Dudley said that her pathologists aren’t locked in to cause and manner of death.
• She [M.E. Dudley] noted that she generally does not mix her rulings, meaning if she can find a cause, she will find a manner.
• But Schmunk disagreed with that philosophy, saying he could have a gunshot victim but still not know whether the victim died of homicide, suicide or accident. And vice versa, he could have a woman die under suspicious circumstances but not be able to determine a medical cause of death because of decomposition.
• “You need to take into account the scene and circumstances,” he said.
• “We treat cases as unknown until we know otherwise,” said Ken Betz, the office director for the Montgomery County Coroner’s Office in Dayton, Ohio, which autopsies all suspected suicides for one-third of the state. “If you treat a case as a suicide, and believe it’s a suicide, that’s the way it’s going to turn out.”

Thanks for this post. It illuminates the significance of a ME (who may/may not be up to the task). Not saying that’s the case here but it’s too easy to eliminate an investigation in an overburdened system. Hate to be cynical but there is always that possibility.

 

[Rosiebones]

It seems that the manner of death (there are many possible causes but just five accepted manners: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide and undetermined), in this case, may be more easily determined by outside evidence than the cause (which is the medical reason a person died) since she was essentially cremated.

 

[nyonge]

It seems that the manner of death (there are many possible causes but just five accepted manners: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide and undetermined), in this case, may be more easily determined by outside evidence than the cause (which is the medical reason a person died) since she was essentially cremated.

Natural
Accidental
Homicide
Suicide

Which one would you pick? Explain.

 

[MyBelle]

In looking for information about how medical examiners rule the cause and manner of death in cases where the body is destroyed by severe decomposition or incineration, I came across this very long, but interesting (MOO) article. The article is the result of an investigation by the Kansas City Star newspaper into the rulings of the Jackson County, Kansas medical examiner's office. In addition to information about the protocols and procedures used by various medical examiners around the U.S., and how M.E.s' rulings affect LE investigations, the article also details a number of cases in which ME's incorrectly ruled on the cause and / or manner of death. I've wondered about questionable ME rulings for a long time in regard to the "Drowning Men" cases. Below, I've copied & pasted some of the main points, but the entire article is worthwhile, IMO. I think some of the points it raises are applicable to Kathleen's death and help explain why only scant and ambiguous information has been released. MOO.

A question of homicide: Rulings by medical examiners raise doubts about protocols

• Forcing death rulings on questionable cases can shut down investigations and turn out to be wrong, experts say. Instead, confusing or evidence-thin cases should be labeled “undetermined,” experts say, leaving them open for more investigation.
• She [M.E. Dudley] stresses that her office isn’t an arm of law enforcement but rather serves a neutral public health role by providing medical opinions.
• But police detectives rely heavily on medical examiner rulings, said Capt. Jeff Emery of the Kansas City homicide unit.
• “If their ruling comes back non-criminal and we have nothing to show otherwise, then the case is closed,” Emery said. The ruling “is a major part of our investigation. You’re looking at the expert witness on death.”
• A medical examiner issues two rulings in every death: one for cause, which is the medical reason a person died, and one for manner of death, which represents the circumstances. There are many possible causes but just five accepted manners: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide and undetermined.
• A doctor can use undetermined as a cause or manner, or both, but it is more commonly used for manner, experts say. An acceptable range is 1 to 5 percent of cases, they said.
• Dudley said that her pathologists aren’t locked in to cause and manner of death.
• She [M.E. Dudley] noted that she generally does not mix her rulings, meaning if she can find a cause, she will find a manner.
• But Schmunk disagreed with that philosophy, saying he could have a gunshot victim but still not know whether the victim died of homicide, suicide or accident. And vice versa, he could have a woman die under suspicious circumstances but not be able to determine a medical cause of death because of decomposition.
• “You need to take into account the scene and circumstances,” he said.
• “We treat cases as unknown until we know otherwise,” said Ken Betz, the office director for the Montgomery County Coroner’s Office in Dayton, Ohio, which autopsies all suspected suicides for one-third of the state. “If you treat a case as a suicide, and believe it’s a suicide, that’s the way it’s going to turn out.”

Your link points out that if an ME isn't sure he can rule it as "undetermined." In this case, LE and the family have said the investigation continues.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Here's another one from the Chicago area from 2016: Death of 18-year-old found in burning car may have been a suicide, according to medical examiner

Yes and the last sentence of your link clearly says:


Police have launched a criminal investigation.

 

[MyBelle]

It seems that the manner of death (there are many possible causes but just five accepted manners: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide and undetermined), in this case, may be more easily determined by outside evidence than the cause (which is the medical reason a person died) since she was essentially cremated.

I'm sure LE consult with the family about the deceased's state of mind and their opinion of what happened. I'm glad LE are still investigating in this case.

 

[Via Marple]

Natural
Accidental
Homicide
Suicide

Which one would you pick? Explain.

I will take a total stab in the dark.. Not literally!.. And say it is an accident.

Her car was old enough to have some problems. It played up while she's driving down the highway.

She left the highway, tried to turn back or stop somewhere to check the car. Then she missed some turn off and ended up on another road.

Finally she stopped at that driveway, got out, fiddled with the car. It's getting dark, she went to the glove box and looked for a torch.

Somehow then the car went up in flames.

Just my imagination. I have not read all the posts. I am not a car mechanic.

 

[Rosiebones]

I say it was a homicide.
Last seen at noon on Saturday. She FaceTimed with her grand kids late that morning and showed them what she was bringing to them. Her husband was refereeing in Milwaukee that day.
She didn't have to be at the game, one and a half hours away until 4:30 pm. She seems to have allowed four and a half hours of travel time. She was to meet her family at the game.
Her usual travel route was down Interstate 94. She used a GPS. She didn't particularly like to drive alone but she had made the trip many, many times.
Her car was found at 10 pm that same night in a private driveway, aflame, with her in the passenger side. She and everything in the car ( as far as we know) were incinerated. This driveway was about 10 to 12 miles from her destination.
This private driveway was across the busy intersection of Stearns School Rd. and Rt. 41. Behind this property is a County Forest Preserve.
I believe she built some time into her travel that Saturday afternoon to stop at Gurnee Mills Mall. It is directly off the Interstate 94. She may have planned to do additional shopping for future gifts for family and friends for BDs and Easter and because this was a convenient opportunity to stop there, she did.
I believe she was abducted in the parking lot, put in the passenger side seat, driven out the back way from the mall parking lot, down Stearns School Rd. to intersection with Rt. 41, across the intersection because the driver thought the driveway was an entrance to the county forest.
I believe she was killed and the car set afire to hide evidence of murder. Also, anything in the car was destroyed. And, to this date he has been successful !

 

[Curiousobserver]

I say it was a homicide.
Last seen at noon on Saturday. She FaceTimed with her grand kids late that morning and showed them what she was bringing to them. Her husband was refereeing in Milwaukee that day.
She didn't have to be at the game, one and a half hours away until 4:30 pm. She seems to have allowed four and a half hours of travel time. She was to meet her family at the game.
Her usual TRUNCATED

Absent some video or other evidence that suddenly becomes public this is as good a guess as we might ever get-

I am leaning toward suicide only because there seems to be no (reported) evidence of credit card or ATM usage but again with the total lack of evidence its just a wild guess on my part.

 

[Via Marple]

Absent some video or other evidence that suddenly becomes public this is as good a guess as we might ever get-

I am leaning toward suicide only because there seems to be no (reported) evidence of credit card or ATM usage but again with the total lack of evidence its just a wild guess on my part.

For all the given scenarios, there would not be credit card or ATM usage, if her wallet was incinerated along with everything else.

Homicide might not involve robbery at all...

For me, the simplest answer when a driver and her car were burnt down together, is an accident. If she was found on the passenger seat, she must have stopped and got over to the other side, before some freak accident occurred. I don't know how that could happen though, without an object like another car involved.

 

[Rosiebones]

For all the given scenarios, there would not be credit card or ATM usage, if her wallet was incinerated along with everything else.

Homicide might not involve robbery at all...

For me, the simplest answer when a driver and her car were burnt down together, is an accident. If she was found on the passenger seat, she must have stopped and got over to the other side, before some freak accident occurred. I don't know how that could happen though, without an object like another car involved.

I don't think she could slide across to the passenger side because of the center console and the gear shift lever and if she got out to go around to the passenger side, because of a fire, why didn't she just stay outside and call her family or AAA?