WI WI - Rothschild, WhtMale pre-50s, UP131512, possibly WWI veteran, lavender checkered tie, tattoos, Sep’30

[Keiri]

I've been going one by one and I'm now over 100, and I've found the first person who really could be our guy.
Full masted ship tattoo, among others, Philip Edward Richards of London, Ontario. Wife Mary.

Collection search - RICHARDS, PHILIP is the link to his records.

He had a lot of health issues not disclosed in the article, but I'm not surprised by that as they were mostly VD related. He also gives two different birth dates. If you see anything glaringly obviously wrong, let me know. I'm still looking but this is the first viable one.

 

[Mfleish]

I've been going one by one and I'm now over 100, and I've found the first person who really could be our guy.
Full masted ship tattoo, among others, Philip Edward Richards of London, Ontario. Wife Mary.

Collection search - RICHARDS, PHILIP is the link to his records.

He had a lot of health issues not disclosed in the article, but I'm not surprised by that as they were mostly VD related. He also gives two different birth dates. If you see anything glaringly obviously wrong, let me know. I'm still looking but this is the first viable one.

On page 49, it states he served in England, not France. The only other concern I have is page 91 states he did light duty rather than combat it seems. I still think he's a reasonable candidate to rule out though!

 

[Keiri]

On page 49, it states he served in England, not France. The only other concern I have is page 91 states he did light duty rather than combat it seems. I still think he's a reasonable candidate to rule out though!

This is exactly what I need. Thank you. So far though he’s the only one close!

 

[curiousty]

His tatoo of the statue of Liberty there was one division that had this insignia
New York
The 77th Infantry Division's unit insignia was both a distinctive and historically significant symbol. Known as the "Statue of Liberty" patch, the insignia features a design of the Statue of Liberty in gold on a blue truncated triangle. 77th Sustainment Brigade - Wikipedia

and One Aero squadron from Rockwell Field, near San Diego, California

File:135th Aero Squadron - Emblem.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Did any articles mention if they took his fingerprints? It was just after the turn of the century when serviepersons in the military were fingerprinted

 

[Keiri]

His tatoo of the statue of Liberty there was one division that had this insignia
New York
The 77th Infantry Division's unit insignia was both a distinctive and historically significant symbol. Known as the "Statue of Liberty" patch, the insignia features a design of the Statue of Liberty in gold on a blue truncated triangle. 77th Sustainment Brigade - Wikipedia

and One Aero squadron from Rockwell Field, near San Diego, California

File:135th Aero Squadron - Emblem.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Did any articles mention if they took his fingerprints? It was just after the turn of the century when serviepersons in the military were fingerprinted

They did, and mailed them to the american dept of defense of the time. They didn't match anything and the dept may or may not have them anymore.
This would be the Canadian Army so I don't know if they'd have that symbol for that reason

 

[Keiri]

Runners up, all from Canadian Army. I looked through something like 180. I will be scrutinizing them further.

• Philip Riou 1871-11-20 tattoos (not described)
• Peter John Roberts 1877-08-04 tattoos (not described)
• Patrick Robertson 1897-06-02 "P.R." front forearm, lucky clover
• Peter Robinson 1879-12-28 tattoo girl’s head
• Patrick Roche January 27, 1883 tattoo forearm (not described)
• Patrick John Ryan 1884-03-03 woman and ship on right arm, faith hope and charity on left lower arm, anchor, and star on upper arm
• Patrick John Ryan 1880-06-23 tattoos grenadier and flags, crossed cannons, tombstone
• Peter Ryan 1885-02-13 hands & flag, “bee r” (presumably a bee insect, the R for Ryan maybe?)
• Peter Ryan 1884-09-10 tattoo flower, clasped hands heart, heart with snake
• Philip Richards listed above - I'm starting to doubt him because his full-masted ship was on his chest, whereas the ship they describe in the newspaper articles had it on one of his arms. These old articles aren't exact however.

I bolded the ones we know our guy had.

I assume our guy got his American tattoos shortly before or after coming to America. We're talking from 1918-1919 to 1930, so that's a lot of time to get more tattoos. None of these are a slam dunk. But I will be working harder on getting death dates for them to rule them out. I don't expect that he would have had the American-themed ones then. I do think he may have had the lady's head, initials or ship, though. I am also not sure the investigators put all the known tattoos in the articles.

Some things I noticed: Almost all of the tattooed fellows were either seamen (obviously) or boiler makers. I will post familysearch files for each of these guys that I don't rule out further. Hope these updates aren't annoying. It helps cover what we have looked at and excluded.

 

[Richard]

The Statue of Liberty was the emblem of the 77th Division, a New York National Army unit formed during World War One (1917 - 1918).

National Army Divisions were formed after the Regular Army and National Guard Divisions were manned and set for deployment.

As a result, most of the men in National Army Divisions were recently enlisted or drafted rather than long - serving veterans.

The note's reference to being considered "lucky" because he was not struck by a Bullet in France would indicate that he was in the Army, rather than the Navy. It might also mean that his unit suffered a high number of killed and wounded.

Service during WW I would mean that he was probably born between 1880 and 1901. His age in 1930, therefore would have been between 30 and 50.

 

[Richard]

The Brooklyn Eagle printed a roster of Brooklyn men who served in the 77th Division in their 9 February 1919 Sunday edition. It can be seen online.

 

[Keiri]

The Statue of Liberty was the emblem of the 77th Division, a New York National Army unit formed during World War One (1917 - 1918).

National Army Divisions were formed after the Regular Army and National Guard Divisions were manned and set for deployment.

As a result, most of the men in National Army Divisions were recently enlisted or drafted rather than long - serving veterans.

The note's reference to being considered "lucky" because he was not struck by a Bullet in France would indicate that he was in the Army, rather than the Navy. It might also mean that his unit suffered a high number of killed and wounded.

Service during WW I would mean that he was probably born between 1880 and 1901. His age in 1930, therefore would have been between 30 and 50.

This was mentioned before by @curiousty , but given his letter, I don’t think he was in the us military. I did exclude all Wisconsin vets, but if Canada doesn’t pan out I can check that next.

 

[Richard]

This was mentioned before by @curiousty , but given his letter, I don’t think he was in the us military. I did exclude all Wisconsin vets, but if Canada doesn’t pan out I can check that next.

At the start of America's entry into WW I, men tended to enlist and be drafted with others from their state into National Guard Divisions and later National Army Divisions which were distributed throughout the country by geographic regions.

As deployed Divisions overseas suffered casualties, replacements were needed to fill the ranks. By 1918, men were enlisted or drafted as "casuals". They were given some basic training and shipped to Replacement Depots in France. From there, they could be sent to any Division.

The Armistice ending World War One went into effect at 11 am, 11 November 1918. An Army of Occupation remained overseas for about a year. Most Divisions returned to the States and stood down by late 1919.

It is possible that this man served in the Army in WW I, and was discharged upon returning to the US. He might have subsequently entered the Navy or the Merchant Marine, which could explain some of his tattoos.

The letter does not sound like someone whose second language is English. Although it could have been written by a Canadian, there are no word spellings or phrases that would specifically indicate this.

He clearly states in the letter that he would have been better off had he stayed in France and been killed by a Bullet. Why would he want to lie about being in France just prior to killing himself?

The tattoos showing the US flag and the Statue of Liberty would tend to indicate that he was a United States citizen or resident. Had he been Canadian, he probably would have joined the Canadian Army, which was engaged in support of Btitish forces as early as 1914.

 

[Keiri]

At the start of America's entry into WW I, men tended to enlist and be drafted with others from their state into National Guard Divisions and later National Army Divisions which were distributed throughout the country by geographic regions.

As deployed Divisions overseas suffered casualties, replacements were needed to fill the ranks. By 1918, men were enlisted or drafted as "casuals". They were given some basic training and shipped to Replacement Depots in France. From there, they could be sent to any Division.

The Armistice ending World War One went into effect at 11 am, 11 November 1918. An Army of Occupation remained overseas for about a year. Most Divisions returned to the States and stood down by late 1919.

It is possible that this man served in the Army in WW I, and was discharged upon returning to the US. He might have subsequently entered the Navy or the Merchant Marine, which could explain some of his tattoos.

The letter does not sound like someone whose second language is English. Although it could have been written by a Canadian, there are no word spellings or phrases that would specifically indicate this.

He clearly states in the letter that he would have been better off had he stayed in France and been killed by a Bullet. Why would he want to lie about being in France just prior to killing himself?

The tattoos showing the US flag and the Statue of Liberty would tend to indicate that he was a United States citizen or resident. Had he been Canadian, he probably would have joined the Canadian Army, which was engaged in support of Btitish forces as early as 1914.

I’m not arguing you’re wrong. It’s just my opinion. It doesn’t hurt anything for me to rule out a hunch.

 

[Keiri]

I read all the pages of the list. 33-35. There were only four names that were P R, Pietro Rigani, a cook, Patrick T. Ryan, Paul K. Roth, Peter E. Reynolds. Those were all part of the 27th division, not the 44th except for Paul K. Roth, who was in the 44th but is accounted for: Paul Krusa Roth (1893-1977) - Find a Grave....

I confirmed by comparing NY service card records to names and units. I found all four. If you wish to double check, be my guest, I'd be thrilled to find this guy.

 

[Richard]

I’m not arguing you’re wrong. It’s just my opinion. It doesn’t hurt anything for me to rule out a hunch.

No offense taken. Just trying to help. There are a lot of possibilities that can be checked out in an attempt to identify this man.

During the War, wearing of, or displaying unit insignia on the US uniform or equipment was forbidden by General Pershing. Immediately after the Armistice, that prohibition was rescinded, and Divisions encouraged their men to wear shoulder patches and to paint the emblems on their helmets.

It was a badge of pride and honor for soldiers to display their unit emblems. Perhaps the tattoo of the Statue of Liberty was meant to show his Service with the 77th Division. They saw some heavy fighting and suffered many casualties.

 

[Keiri]

No offense taken. Just trying to help. There are a lot of possibilities that can be checked out in an attempt to identify this man.

During the War, wearing of, or displaying unit insignia on the US uniform or equipment was forbidden by General Pershing. Immediately after the Armistice, that prohibition was rescinded, and Divisions encouraged their men to wear shoulder patches and to paint the emblems on their helmets.

It was a badge of pride and honor for soldiers to display their unit emblems. Perhaps the tattoo of the Statue of Liberty was meant to show his Service with the 77th Division. They saw some heavy fighting and suffered many casualties.

I hear you. It's been mentioned. It also could mean an immigrant coming to America. I've ruled out for the most part everyone, either for wrong tattoos, death dates, or severe age/height differences - the only one left is:
Patrick Robertson 1897-06-02 "P.R." front forearm, lucky clover, but the tattoo is on the wrong side according to the article. Articles are often wrong, so who knows. He served in the 191th Bn.
I have no one I suspect anymore in the 77th Div, after reading through. He may have been from any of the English speaking countries or even learned it, the letter was I believe paraphrased, not a direct transcription. I did find a 1929 article saying a veteran named Pierre Raymond, Ville Lauson, PQ was owed money and couldn't be located. I've searched this case up and down, and unless anyone has any other ideas, I'm stumped.