Wild Card Witnesses - Trial Week 2 and Beyond

[yllek]

Based on Baez's opening statements and the witness testimony from the first week of the trial, which upcoming witnesses do you feel most nervous about and why?

For me:

1. Lee Anthony: will he join the rest of the family and seemingly tell the truth as he now sees it - without the denial/need to shield his sister? Will he be afraid of the molestation accusations or angered by them? His girlfriend Mallory seem to help the defense more than the state, imo, with her account of the "amazing bond" between Casey and Caylee.

2. Cindy Anthony: Her first day of testimony definitely helped the state, imo. She dispelled Baez's conention that she left the ladder to the pool attached. She sympathetically and honestly chronicled the the first 2 weeks of detailed lies told to her by Casey after June 15th. But, her 911 calls are surely coming up when she resumes testifying on 6/1/11. Will she support her "dead body smell" in Casey's car contention or will she support her later contention that it was "rotten pizza" and she exaggerated to get the LE's attention? When Baez cross-examines her, I bet he will ask her "why wasn't George calling Casey; what was George doing?"... In her first day of testimony, Linda Drake did not ask Cindy anything about George's attempts or knowledge in trying to get ahold of Casey. The defense isn't gunning for Cindy at this point; they are gunning for George. Cindy's cross-examination is going to be key, imo.

3. Roy Kronk: I think Casey Anthony, and she alone, is guilty of premeditated murder. I don't think Roy Kronk had anything to do with moving or hiding Caylee's remains. And, still, I find the mutiple calls to LE and his son's contentions baffling. I'm afraid a jury will too. Confusion leads to doubt, imo. The state will need to admit that LE did not properly follow up on Kronk's initial calls to neutralize the situation, imo...

4. Krystal Holloway/River Cruz: Baez said in opening statements that we will hear under oath from this woman who George supposedly had an affair with, took money from, and confided in - confided that Caylee's case was an accident that snowballed out of control. Imo, this bit player was the catalyst for Baez's defense strategy - he used her statement as a foundation and turned her into a key witness. Baez's whole defense strategy can be summed up in what George allegedly told this woman. If the jury believes George made this statement and Casey was following George's script after Caylee drowned (and if they are also suspicious of Kronk's story), I'm afraid the jury might have reasonable doubt as to what happened to Caylee and who was responsbile for the aftermath. Scary thought.

Keeping the faith and think the state did a great job in opening statements and week 1 of the trial. But, looking at things from the jury's perpsective, which witnesses are of most concern to you?

Justice for Caylee... coming soon...

 

[Jo in Calif]

I really hope that Krystal Holloway tells it, as Georges thought's, as to what happened to Caylee, not him telling her, what happened to Caylee.
I'm sure that the SA will get it out of her, the was it was truly told to her and not what the defense want's it told as.

 

[bookworm474]

ok accident that got out of control.


If true that Casey was seen at Walmart with Caylee on the afternoon of the 16th and caylee was upset or testy, could be that Caylee needed a nap.

Some 3 year olds stop taking naps, but when tired get testy if they are not doing what they want.

Look at the time line and find out who suggested the rental of the movies. Caylee put in the car for a long nap per Casey's system could have easily died there because Casey was with Toni until 10:30 the next day. Was she forgotten, out of sight, out of mind?
Could have been, just as easily as a planned kill.

The kind of lies Casey tells and the obsessive/compulsive way that she does everything to me she isn't going to remember them all. IF challenged she will deny what she doesn't remember. Not that she doesn't have a good memory for some things, it's all tied up with the sense of self and the ego at the time.

I think she conveniently forgot and per her system of non responsibility after the fact had to start the blame game and pin the problem on som one, or create a drama that could be milked for money.

When was Caylee killed? I think it was through the night she passed due to restraint in the car where she was placed and forgotten.

All these witnesses cloud the real issues.

 

[flipflop53]

I really hope that Krystal Holloway tells it, as Georges thought's, as to what happened to Caylee, not him telling her, what happened to Caylee.
I'm sure that the SA will get it out of her, the was it was truly told to her and not what the defense want's it told as.

Wouldn't George's statements to her be heresay and not allowed?

 

[Wholehearted]

I'm concerned about Lee Anthony's testimony as well. Even if he tells the truth, I think he may very well come off badly, because of his nervous mannerisms. I think the laughter as a result of nerves is understandable, but when he does it, it can be jarring. Also, considering his very bizarre tribute at Caylee's memorial, that many consider to be directed at Casey, I wonder how he'll handle the emotional stress of testifying. It obviously is difficult for those who only knew Casey slightly. How will Lee handle his much stronger emotions?

 

[yllek]

ok accident that got out of control.


If true that Casey was seen at Walmart with Caylee on the afternoon of the 16th and caylee was upset or testy, could be that Caylee needed a nap.

Some 3 year olds stop taking naps, but when tired get testy if they are not doing what they want.

Look at the time line and find out who suggested the rental of the movies. Caylee put in the car for a long nap per Casey's system could have easily died there because Casey was with Toni until 10:30 the next day. Was she forgotten, out of sight, out of mind?
Could have been, just as easily as a planned kill.

The kind of lies Casey tells and the obsessive/compulsive way that she does everything to me she isn't going to remember them all. IF challenged she will deny what she doesn't remember. Not that she doesn't have a good memory for some things, it's all tied up with the sense of self and the ego at the time.

I think she conveniently forgot and per her system of non responsibility after the fact had to start the blame game and pin the problem on som one, or create a drama that could be milked for money.

When was Caylee killed? I think it was through the night she passed due to restraint in the car where she was placed and forgotten.

All these witnesses cloud the real issues.

BBM

Exactly - that is what concerns me. Casey killed her daughter (or at the very least, through negligence, caused her daughter's death) and then elaborately attempted to deceive the country into thinking Caylee was kidnapped (and then killed) for 3 years. Due to the dysfunction of the Anthony family and the the bizareness of the circumstances surrounding Kronk and Cruz/Holloway (who Baez made key witnesses in his opening statement), I think the facts are more easily clouded than usual.

I'm hoping the LE and forensic scientists are particulary strong witnesses for the state. So far, Baez seems to be contending Caylee's body was never in the trunk of Casey's car. If it can be proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt, then juror reservations about George and Kronk won't matter because the defense's theory will be debunked. Better yet, hope it can be proven that it was physically impossible for Caylee to make it out to the backyard on her own and she had never done so before.

Ever since the OJ verdict, I never look at at any case as "open and shut". In that case, DNA was so new, that the jury didn't understand the scientists testimony and its signifigance (in interviews years later, the jurors claimed the "if it don't fit, you must aquit" strategy was laughable and didn't affect their deliberations). I think juries have come a long way since then in terms of understanding the validity of scientific/forensics evidence (and scientists and attorneys have learned how to simplify the forensic presentations), but the credibility of personal witnesses still weighs heavy in deliberations, imo. We've got some bizzare persons and strange circumstances in this case, imo. I hope the science and the truth can erase any clouds of doubt and allow the jury to see the light...

Justice for Caylee...

 

[chefmom]

Based on Baez's opening statements and the witness testimony from the first week of the trial, which upcoming witnesses do you feel most nervous about and why?

For me:

1. Lee Anthony: will he join the rest of the family and seemingly tell the truth as he now sees it - without the denial/need to shield his sister? Will he be afraid of the molestation accusations or angered by them? His girlfriend Mallory seem to help the defense more than the state, imo, with her account of the "amazing bond" between Casey and Caylee.

2. Cindy Anthony: Her first day of testimony definitely helped the state, imo. She dispelled Baez's conention that she left the ladder to the pool attached. She sympathetically and honestly chronicled the the first 2 weeks of detailed lies told to her by Casey after June 15th. But, her 911 calls are surely coming up when she resumes testifying on 6/1/11. Will she support her "dead body smell" in Casey's car contention or will she support her later contention that it was "rotten pizza" and she exaggerated to get the LE's attention? When Baez cross-examines her, I bet he will ask her "why wasn't George calling Casey; what was George doing?"... In her first day of testimony, Linda Drake did not ask Cindy anything about George's attempts or knowledge in trying to get ahold of Casey. The defense isn't gunning for Cindy at this point; they are gunning for George. Cindy's cross-examination is going to be key, imo.

3. Roy Kronk: I think Casey Anthony, and she alone, is guilty of premeditated murder. I don't think Roy Kronk had anything to do with moving or hiding Caylee's remains. And, still, I find the mutiple calls to LE and his son's contentions baffling. I'm afraid a jury will too. Confusion leads to doubt, imo. The state will need to admit that LE did not properly follow up on Kronk's initial calls to neutralize the situation, imo...

4. Krystal Holloway/River Cruz: Baez said in opening statements that we will hear under oath from this woman who George supposedly had an affair with, took money from, and confided in - confided that Caylee's case was an accident that snowballed out of control. Imo, this bit player was the catalyst for Baez's defense strategy - he used her statement as a foundation and turned her into a key witness. Baez's whole defense strategy can be summed up in what George allegedly told this woman. If the jury believes George made this statement and Casey was following George's script after Caylee drowned (and if they are also suspicious of Kronk's story), I'm afraid the jury might have reasonable doubt as to what happened to Caylee and who was responsbile for the aftermath. Scary thought.

Keeping the faith and think the state did a great job in opening statements and week 1 of the trial. But, looking at things from the jury's perpsective, which witnesses are of most concern to you?

Justice for Caylee... coming soon...

1. Lee Anthony - Lee had better tell the truth. His loving sister has made him out to be a molestor. No matter what becomes of this trial, he and George will ALWAYS have that hanging over their heads, and there will ALWAYS be some people who will wonder if it is true. Since it comes from a known, pathological liar, I do not believe it. However, many will either believe it or question it always. That creates a problem for Lee since he may father a little girl some day. Mallory will always have an immediate "get" on him in any custody issue that could ever arise because of this. "Your honor, his own sister claimed he molested her. I cannot trust him or his father around my baby girl."

2. Cindy Anthony - Same thing. Cindy better tell the truth. Casey is methodically trying to destroy her entire family. Bringing them to the brink of bankruptcy wasn't enough. She wants them to suffer and then suffer some more. If Cindy ever has any hopes of having a somewhat normal life again, she needs to tell the truth and let the authorities deal with Casey.

3. Roy Kronk - I believe there is a slippery slope here for the defense. The State will, I believe, keep their questioning to the basics of the August calls and the subsequent events that led up to the December call and the finding of the remains. I am not sure how much latitude HHJP will give the defense in their smear campaign against Mr. Kronk, but I will be surprised if they are allowed to bring up things that are irrelevant to this case.

4. Krystal Holloway/River Cruz - This one could go either way. I would be interested in the context of the "accident that snowballed" comment. Did he state that it was an accident that snowballed out of control or that he suspected that it was an accident that snowballed out of control? There is a huge difference between the two. Either way, I believe the State can handle this one.

No matter what is testified to by any of the players, short of an admittance of guilt by someone other than Casey, the defense has a problem, IMO. Jose made this grand, flourishing opening statement that points the blame at many people, anyone but his poor, abused client. He has made claims that simply do not make sense. When he wraps this up, he is going to have to have something to say that actually seems plausible before the jury goes in to make their decision, and unless he plans on channeling Harry Houdini, I think he will fall short. Way short. All, JMO.

 

[Jo in Calif]

Wouldn't George's statements to her be heresay and not allowed?

You are right.
I wonder how the defense is going to be able use her testimony, about this case.

 

[crucibelle]

You are right.
I wonder how the defense is going to be able use her testimony, about this case.

How would it be hearsay if George told her directly "it was an accident that snowballed out of control". She isn't saying that someone told George that and then he relayed that to her; she is saying that George HIMSELF told her that. Perhaps my reasoning is flawed?

 

[Pink Panther]

BBM

Exactly - that is what concerns me. Casey killed her daughter (or at the very least, through negligence, caused her daughter's death) and then elaborately attempted to deceive the country into thinking Caylee was kidnapped (and then killed) for 3 years. Due to the dysfunction of the Anthony family and the the bizareness of the circumstances surrounding Kronk and Cruz/Holloway (who Baez made key witnesses in his opening statement), I think the facts are more easily clouded than usual.

I'm hoping the LE and forensic scientists are particulary strong witnesses for the state. So far, Baez seems to be contending Caylee's body was never in the trunk of Casey's car. If it can be proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt, then juror reservations about George and Kronk won't matter because the defense's theory will be debunked. Better yet, hope it can be proven that it was physically impossible for Caylee to make it out to the backyard on her own and she had never done so before.

Ever since the OJ verdict, I never look at at any case as "open and shut". In that case, DNA was so new, that the jury didn't understand the scientists testimony and its signifigance (in interviews years later, the jurors claimed the "if it don't fit, you must aquit" strategy was laughable and didn't affect their deliberations). I think juries have come a long way since then in terms of understanding the validity of scientific/forensics evidence (and scientists and attorneys have learned how to simplify the forensic presentations), but the credibility of personal witnesses still weighs heavy in deliberations, imo. We've got some bizzare persons and strange circumstances in this case, imo. I hope the science and the truth can erase any clouds of doubt and allow the jury to see the light...

Justice for Caylee...

I don't think that JB is claiming that Caylee was never in the trunk...Just that it was later. As a part of GA's plot to frame KC. So far, he has pointed out that in the early days, the smell wasn't there...

moo

 

[yllek]

Wouldn't George's statements to her be heresay and not allowed?

Good question.

I think it might not be considered hearsay because it is something that George said directly to her (and the defense will contend it was based on his personal knowledge, rather than something someone told him and he passed on). And, George is available to confirm or deny it.

I bet the state will object on the basis of hearsay when Jose poses the question. Interesting to see which way it goes. Even if the objection is sustained, Baez will have put it out there...

 

[yllek]

I don't think that JB is claiming that Caylee was never in the trunk...Just that it was later. As a part of GA's plot to frame KC. So far, he has pointed out that in the early days, the smell wasn't there...

moo

Hmmm, I got the impression that Baez is claiming there was never a body in Casey's trunk because George disposed of the body upon finding Caylee drowned in the pool (possibly with the help of Kronk). I didn't think Casey and Baez were insinuating that George framed her for concealling a dead body.

I guess we need to wait and see where Baez is going; his opening statement sure left out a lot of the important details, imo...

 

[carole]

ok accident that got out of control.


If true that Casey was seen at Walmart with Caylee on the afternoon of the 16th and caylee was upset or testy, could be that Caylee needed a nap.

Some 3 year olds stop taking naps, but when tired get testy if they are not doing what they want.

Look at the time line and find out who suggested the rental of the movies. Caylee put in the car for a long nap per Casey's system could have easily died there because Casey was with Toni until 10:30 the next day. Was she forgotten, out of sight, out of mind?
Could have been, just as easily as a planned kill.

The kind of lies Casey tells and the obsessive/compulsive way that she does everything to me she isn't going to remember them all. IF challenged she will deny what she doesn't remember. Not that she doesn't have a good memory for some things, it's all tied up with the sense of self and the ego at the time.

I think she conveniently forgot and per her system of non responsibility after the fact had to start the blame game and pin the problem on som one, or create a drama that could be milked for money.

When was Caylee killed? I think it was through the night she passed due to restraint in the car where she was placed and forgotten.

All these witnesses cloud the real issues.

This sighting was on June 9 - back when Casey said that Caylee was kidnapped by Zanny on June 9. The date was later found to be a mistake, she meant to say June 16 was the day Zanny kidnapped Caylee. LE has verified the correct date as the 16th since Caylee was seen at the nursing home of Father's Day June 15.

 

[GiantPickle]

Casey killed her daughter (or at the very least, through negligence, caused her daughter's death) ...

respectfully snipped....

I think this is our problem more than any one particular witness....if us sleuthers who know the case upside down and inside out still think from time to time that it might have actually been an accident...there's reasonable doubt.

 

[kaRN]

RK isn't on either sides witness list at this point I thought. RC, well I just put her in the same place as the 30 TES searchers who were going to say that the area off Suburban was dry and Caylee wasn't there.
Between now and these folks testifying if they do at all, we have forensics and plenty of them for the DT to worry about. That and their client who may melt down at any moment.

 

[yllek]

respectfully snipped....

I think this is our problem more than any one particular witness....if us sleuthers who know the case upside down and inside out still think from time to time that it might have actually been an accident...there's reasonable doubt.

Until opening statements, I was open to a small possibility that it was a negligent accident and terrible criminal cover up by Casey. Now, I feel certain it was premeditated; if not, why throw everyone but Casey under the bus? I know some people believe it might have been accident, thus the "at the very least" predicator in my statements...

I agree with you though GiantPickle - if one or more jurors buys that it was an accident and a cover up by Casey and/or the whole cast of characters, that's the biggest problem for the state. I don't know what lesser charges the judge will instruct the jury to consider (aggravated ms?), but aggravated child neglect and lying to LE alone won't get her anywhere near LWOP.

 

[kaRN]

respectfully snipped....

I think this is our problem more than any one particular witness....if us sleuthers who know the case upside down and inside out still think from time to time that it might have actually been an accident...there's reasonable doubt.

Assuming it was an accident made to look like a murder, (Who does that???) then not calling 911, doing CPR or attempting to save the childs life was an act of premeditation. ICA is not an MD. A blue, lifeless appearing child isn't necessarily clinically dead. EMS if called, wouldn't pronounce a drowning victim dead, they would start CPR, continue it and wait and let the ER doc do that. The ER doc wouldn't have done that until they had attempted to revive her for many, many minutes. Death may be pronounced much later than the drowning took place. Legally Caylee would have been alive until she was pronounced dead if ICA had a cell of maternal instinct and called for help rather than a shovel after her childs accident.
Then there's the cover-up to make it look like a murder, the spending 3 years in jail devoid of remorse rather than divulge the accident.
Nah, it's murder. KC says she called security at Universal when her Blackjack phone was stolen. We know she did call 911 when she out on bond and there were protesters outside. She does apparently know how to reach out to authorities when it's important enough and Caylee wasn't. I think the fact she had a motive for wanting her daughter dead, motivated her to let her die.
But it wasn't an accident.

 

[Amster]

Lee is a worry to me. Hopefully, he won't do his usual clown act on the stand. No "I love you" to ICA. Fist pumping CMA routine he did at the memorial still sickens me. He may very well admit to all of ICA's accusations....I don't trust him. Especially after his fiance made her gag inducing statement of ICA having an awesome relationship with Caylee. Really, Mallory? Really? :sick:

 

[GiantPickle]

Assuming it was an accident made to look like a murder, (Who does that???) then not calling 911, doing CPR or attempting to save the childs life was an act of premeditation. ICA is not an MD. A blue, lifeless appearing child isn't necessarily clinically dead. EMS if called, wouldn't pronounce a drowning victim dead, they would start CPR, continue it and wait and let the ER doc do that. The ER doc wouldn't have done that until they had attempted to revive her for many, many minutes. Death may be pronounced much later than the drowning took place. Legally Caylee would have been alive until she was pronounced dead if ICA had a cell of maternal instinct and called for help rather than a shovel after her childs accident.
Then there's the cover-up to make it look like a murder, the spending 3 years in jail devoid of remorse rather than divulge the accident.
Nah, it's murder. KC says she called security at Universal when her Blackjack phone was stolen. We know she did call 911 when she out on bond and there were protesters outside. She does apparently know how to reach out to authorities when it's important enough and Caylee wasn't. I think the fact she had a motive for wanting her daughter dead, motivated her to let her die.
But it wasn't an accident.

very good points - I just don't know that the average juror would go down that path with this story....I can sleep better at night thinking it was a coverup of a bad accident.....the jurors might be just like me....I think it'll be a miracle if she gets DP.

 

[Amster]

Caylee had duct tape covering her little mouth and nose. This case screams DP.