Will the real TH please stand up?

[Adrienne37]

...until five years later, when a child under her charge went missing.

or until 4-1/2 years later when she tries to hire someone to murder her husband.

 

[stmarysmead]

Desiree teared up as she spoke about her plans for Kyron when he returns. "When he comes home, we're not letting him leave the house ever again," she joked. She said they've had vacations planned, and will continue to go camping and fishing.

"We'll make sure he's happy each and every day, just as before this happened," she said.



http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story_2nd.php?story_id=127801810508928600




Where is there anything that says Kyron was abused by anyone? The above quote by Desiree confirms that even she believes the little guy smiling in all those pictures was happy.

I'm sorry to disagree but it does not. Desiree has no idea what went on in the Horman house when Kyron was alone with Terri. Nor does Kaine. She is probably referring to Kyron's happiness in HER home which is ALL she can vouch for. She did report Kyron crying and not wanting to go back there. But she CANNOT attest to what went on between this missing child and his stepmother when no one was watching. Of course, the disgusting emails that brought both her and LE to tears may give that information. We shall see.

Once again, if you read my entire post, I never said that we can say Kyron was abused. What is certain though is that happy pictures of Kyron, of Caylee Anthony , of Hayley Cummings prove NOTHING about the conditions wherein they lived. A second, an instant captured in film is JUST THAT. It is not a complete record of ANYTHING!

If photos alone did tell the WHOLE STORY, a few "happy" pictures of Hayley and her Stepmother, or Caylee and Casey would just have shut down those investigations. "Oops, nothing to see here. Look at these happy photos! All was well. Must be strangers not these fabulous parents."

Is THAT the assertion here?

That some smiling photos of a child means he cannot be suffering abuse , neglect, or be resented or despised by a parent when he is NOT posing for a camera?

Or that a non-custodial parent can know or vouch for... what happens behind closed doors to her child every minute, miles and miles away?

 

[FORDANIEL]

I presume this means you have never exceeded the speed limit by even one mile per hour nor perpetrated a California rolling stop, gassed it a little to get across before the light turned red, not made a complete stop on a right hand turn ad infinitum...
I am in awe of your lawfulness:angel:

Thank-you!!!

 

[miabellamoure]

Good question! That should go in the "I wonder" thread.

It did...right after I posted this!

 

[Billylee]

I'm sorry to disagree but it does not. Desiree has no idea what went on in the Horman house when Kyron was alone with Terri. Nor does Kaine. She is probably referring to Kyron's happiness in HER home which is ALL she can vouch for. She did report Kyron crying and not wanting to go back there. But she CANNOT attest to what went on between this missing child and his stepmother when no one was watching. Of course, the disgusting emails that brought both her and LE to tears may give that information. We shall see.

Once again, if you read my entire post, I never said that we can say Kyron was abused. What is certain though is that happy pictures of Kyron, of Caylee Anthony , of Hayley Cummings prove NOTHING about the conditions wherein they lived. A second, an instant captured in film is JUST THAT. It is not a complete record of ANYTHING!

If photos alone did tell the WHOLE STORY, a few "happy" pictures of Hayley and her Stepmother, or Caylee and Casey would just have shut down those investigations. "Oops, nothing to see here. Look at these happy photos! All was well. Must be strangers not these fabulous parents."

Is THAT the assertion here?

That some smiling photos of a child means he cannot be suffering abuse , neglect, or be resented or despised by a parent when he is NOT posing for a camera?

Or that a non-custodial parent can know or vouch for... what happens behind closed doors to her child every minute, miles and miles away?

Of course one cannot go by pictures alone. I do however take her sentence to mean that she, Desiree, thought Kyron was happy before his disappearance. And since she knew Kyron better than I, I'll take her word for it against rumors. JMHO

(P.S. Kaine & Desiree both agreed that Kyron made a fuss and cried when he was leaving BOTH parental homes and had to back to the other, that means when he was leaving TH & KH's home, he cried when he had to go to the Youngs home as well. I can try to find the quote if you like.)

 

[stmarysmead]

Of course one cannot go by pictures alone. I do however take her sentence to mean that she, Desiree, thought Kyron was happy before his disappearance. And since she knew Kyron better than I, I'll take her word for it against rumors. JMHO

(P.S. Kaine & Desiree both agreed that Kyron made a fuss and cried when he was leaving BOTH parental homes and had to back to the other, that means when he was leaving TH & KH's home, he cried when he had to go to the Youngs home as well. I can try to find the quote if you like.)

Are you also taking Desiree's word that Terri is responsible for Kyron being missing? And since Desiree and Kaine know Terri better than any of us...they have also said Terri was a liar and made other assertions very detrimental to Terri. I actually am on board and will agree to take their word on all of that.

So, we agree that Kyron appeared happy, Terri is a liar, Terri has Kyron stashed somewhere, and Terri is responsible for Kyron's disappearance? (Just checking, since we are taking Desiree's word )

 

[Billylee]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kaine_horman_describes_how_ter.html

To Kaine:


Q: What were the "red flags" or warning signs that Desiree Young thought she may have missed prior to Kyron's disappearance? Desiree told the Today Show that Kyron seemed increasingly unhappy when he left their home after his visits with the Youngs. Kaine, did you see any warning signs and if so what?

A: Desiree's quote was not taken in its entirety. As a younger boy, Kyron can express distress when going from one household to the other if he has been having a great time and is looking forward to upcoming activities with that particular household. There was no abnormal amount of this happening after he left Desiree's household or when he left ours to go visit Desiree. He has been unhappy several times when he has had to leave our house to go visit Desiree, nothing Desiree or I would deem out of the ordinary.

I do believe they know waaaay more than we do, that's for sure.

 

[stmarysmead]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kaine_horman_describes_how_ter.html

To Kaine:


Q: What were the "red flags" or warning signs that Desiree Young thought she may have missed prior to Kyron's disappearance? Desiree told the Today Show that Kyron seemed increasingly unhappy when he left their home after his visits with the Youngs. Kaine, did you see any warning signs and if so what?

A: Desiree's quote was not taken in its entirety. As a younger boy, Kyron can express distress when going from one household to the other if he has been having a great time and is looking forward to upcoming activities with that particular household. There was no abnormal amount of this happening after he left Desiree's household or when he left ours to go visit Desiree. He has been unhappy several times when he has had to leave our house to go visit Desiree, nothing Desiree or I would deem out of the ordinary.

I do believe they know waaaay more than we do, that's for sure.

I agree. WAY more.

(Hope that's a smilie at the end of my post...I see now he has eyebrows)

 

[AlexisFresca]

BBM

Donjita, all the literature I've read discusses how child predators are keenly in tune with their little victims. They make it their life's work to know what the child likes such as, his/her favorite places, wished for toys and gifts. Child predators make it a point to know the child's wants and needs and why they may be unhappy. moo mho

I find it likely and not that far fetched that whoever took Kyron may have enticed him with promises of a good time with the explicit intention of letting Kyron know how important his happiness is. This important aspect has been over looked by many. moo mho

Enticed him? What child predator? I have read nothing reported that there is a child predator suspected of being involved in this case. Have I missed something? How about Terri said, 'meet me at such and such door. You have a doctor's appointment to go to'. How about the statement that Terri yelled across the gym about his doctor's appointment? How about the fact that he was marked absent that day without anyone feeling the need to call home and let the parents know he wasn't in school that day? No, I just don't see a child predator as having been the one to get him out of the school.

 

[AlexisFresca]

I'm sorry to disagree but it does not. Desiree has no idea what went on in the Horman house when Kyron was alone with Terri. Nor does Kaine. She is probably referring to Kyron's happiness in HER home which is ALL she can vouch for. She did report Kyron crying and not wanting to go back there. But she CANNOT attest to what went on between this missing child and his stepmother when no one was watching. Of course, the disgusting emails that brought both her and LE to tears may give that information. We shall see.

Once again, if you read my entire post, I never said that we can say Kyron was abused. What is certain though is that happy pictures of Kyron, of Caylee Anthony , of Hayley Cummings prove NOTHING about the conditions wherein they lived. A second, an instant captured in film is JUST THAT. It is not a complete record of ANYTHING!

If photos alone did tell the WHOLE STORY, a few "happy" pictures of Hayley and her Stepmother, or Caylee and Casey would just have shut down those investigations. "Oops, nothing to see here. Look at these happy photos! All was well. Must be strangers not these fabulous parents."

Is THAT the assertion here?

That some smiling photos of a child means he cannot be suffering abuse , neglect, or be resented or despised by a parent when he is NOT posing for a camera?

Or that a non-custodial parent can know or vouch for... what happens behind closed doors to her child every minute, miles and miles away?

Agreed. And didn't Desiree say that Kyron had expressed wanting to come live with her? Like within a month or so before his disappearance?

 

[eyes4crime]

Enticed him? What child predator? I have read nothing reported that there is a child predator suspected of being involved in this case. Have I missed something? How about Terri said, 'meet me at such and such door. You have a doctor's appointment to go to'. How about the statement that Terri yelled across the gym about his doctor's appointment? How about the fact that he was marked absent that day without anyone feeling the need to call home and let the parents know he wasn't in school that day? No, I just don't see a child predator as having been the one to get him out of the school.

Thanks for your input - until I have some verified facts that this was Terri's doing, I will continue to keep an open mind to all the possibilities. moo mho

 

[AlexisFresca]

Thanks for your input - until I have some verified facts that this was Terri's doing, I will continue to keep an open mind to all the possibilities. moo mho

Is that your way of saying you have not read about any child predators being suspect in this case? Considering the MCSD has even said they were focusing their investigation on Terri, I don't know what other 'possibilities' specifically you are looking at :waitasec: Why would Kaine take the baby and abruptly vacate his own home and file for divorce, if she is not involved? What about the MFH? I am asking sincerely what it is about these facts that dismiss Terri's involvement with Kyron's disappearance? Thanks!

 

[eyes4crime]

Is that your way of saying you have not read about any child predators being suspect in this case? Considering the MCSD has even said they were focusing their investigation on Terri, I don't know what other 'possibilities' specifically you are looking at :waitasec: Why would Kaine take the baby and abruptly vacate his own home and file for divorce, if she is not involved? What about the MFH? I am asking sincerely what it is about these facts that dismiss Terri's involvement with Kyron's disappearance? Thanks!

BBM
Never did I say that the facts dismissed Terri, and next I ask - what facts? As I said above, until there is one verified fact pointing to Terri, I wish to keep an open mind. Thanks for understanding. moo hoo

The supposed MFH has never been established with facts, not a single one. Could have been a plea bargain for all I know or maybe it never happened. His word against hers. Hearsay to the max!

 

[nosysw]

BBM
Never did I say that the facts dismissed Terri, and next I ask - what facts? As I said above, until there is one verified fact pointing to Terri, I wish to keep an open mind. Thanks for understanding. moo hoo

The supposed MFH has never been established with facts, not a single one. Could have been a plea bargain for all I know or maybe it never happened. His word against hers. Hearsay to the max!

Whose word against whose? KH supposedly got his info from LE so it wasn't his word against TH's, it was LE's. Is his the LS?

and TH- did she ever come out and say anything about this? I wasn't aware she had. I do know that she called 911 to report a threat, but that isn't the same as denying the charge. Did she ever do so?

 

[AlexisFresca]

BBM
Never did I say that the facts dismissed Terri, and next I ask - what facts? As I said above, until there is one verified fact pointing to Terri, I wish to keep an open mind. Thanks for understanding. moo hoo

The supposed MFH has never been established with facts, not a single one. Could have been a plea bargain for all I know or maybe it never happened. His word against hers. Hearsay to the max!

Considering it was LE that brought the MFH plot to Kaine's attention, I say that gives me all the verification I need. It was in the restraining order, and I doubt you can throw any old allegation into a restraining order just for the sake of getting away from someone that may be a problem. I listed some facts in my post.

Bottom line, she is not cooperating with LE and the investigation. When it concerns the fact that a minor child is missing, there is absolutely nothing that should keep you from cooperating with authorities and telling them what you know. Facts are also evident in someone's behavior.

 

[AlexisFresca]

BBM
Never did I say that the facts dismissed Terri, and next I ask - what facts? As I said above, until there is one verified fact pointing to Terri, I wish to keep an open mind. Thanks for understanding. moo hoo

The supposed MFH has never been established with facts, not a single one. Could have been a plea bargain for all I know or maybe it never happened. His word against hers. Hearsay to the max!

Perhaps I should try this angle. Put yourself in Kaine's and Desiree's place. Kyron is your child.
Your current spouse was the last person to see your child.
Your current spouse has the school call the bio parent to tell them the child is missing - instead of telling them yourself.
You find out that your current spouse didn't fare so well on some of the LD tests.
You find out that your current spouse has talked to others about how 'they suspect me' or 'I failed the LD test!'.
You see your spouse acting unusual while the rest of the family is working diligently on flyers and doing everything they can to cooperate with authorities to find your child.
Your spouse refuses further LD tests.
Your spouse will not answer questions for LE or tell where they were or what they were doing on the day your child disappeared.
Your spouse shows no concern for your child's whereabouts.
Furthermore, your spouse has packed up a box of your child's things and gotten rid of them. Rearranged things in your child's bedroom.
You find out that your spouse tried to hire someone to kill you.
... just to name a few

Are you telling me you would want LE to give you more 'facts' as you continue to lie in the same bed with this person night after night - afterall, there are no 'facts' to support they were directly tied to your missing child?

 

[eyes4crime]

Whose word against whose? KH supposedly got his info from LE so it wasn't his word against TH's, it was LE's. Is his the LS?

and TH- did she ever come out and say anything about this? I wasn't aware she had. I do know that she called 911 to report a threat, but that isn't the same as denying the charge. Did she ever do so?

When a person tells LE they were involved with a conversation about MFH and reports the person's name, LE has a duty to warn the named person as to possible danger. LE doesn't know for sure, and without a body, money exchange, tape recording, it's hearsay but Tarasoff Law makes it mandatory reporting. moo

An example is if a patient tells his/her psychologist he/she has the intent to harm the neighbor down the street - psychologist has a duty to warn per Tarasoff.

Kaine left the house with baby K and never talked to Terri about possible MFH. Reported is that Terri did call Kaine and ask why he left...her text has been posted many times and I don't know exactly where it is in this maze of threads. Sorry. moo

 

[nosysw]

When a person tells LE they were involved with a conversation about MFH and reports the person's name, LE has a duty to warn the named person as to possible danger. LE doesn't know for sure, and without a body, money exchange, tape recording, it's hearsay but Tarasoff Law makes it mandatory reporting. moo

An example is if a patient tells his/her psychologist he/she has the intent to harm the neighbor down the street - psychologist has a duty to warn per Tarasoff.

Kaine left the house with baby K and never talked to Terri about possible MFH. Reported is that Terri did call Kaine and ask why he left...her text has been posted many times and I don't know exactly where it is in this maze of threads. Sorry. moo

I do know about Tarasoff as I work in mental health but my point was about the he said/she said...However, I thought there was a statement made that KH was given the information from LE which they (or he, or both he and LE) had found to be credible...I could definitely be wrong about this but my impression was not just that it was a warning under Tarasoff but a situation in which they felt he could be/have been in danger. As I said, I don't have the references, just recollection from someone with a not so perfect memory.

And still interested in knowing if TH ever specifically denied the charge.

 

[eyes4crime]

Perhaps I should try this angle. Put yourself in Kaine's and Desiree's place. Kyron is your child.
Your current spouse was the last person to see your child.

A...Are you saying there is no 3rd person involved? Last person, does that eliminate children who may have seen Kyron?

Your current spouse has the school call the bio parent to tell them the child is missing - instead of telling them yourself.
A...
When a child is reported by a person AT the school, could it be the school policy to call the bio parent in person?

You find out that your current spouse didn't fare so well on some of the LD tests.

A...Polygraphs do not detect anything but your blood pressure, pulse, and heart rate and sweat...autonomic nervous system. How your body perceives 'fight' or 'flight'. Doesn't detect underlying disease states, medication, mental health issues, body states such as menopause. and a flurry of other factors. I consider the polygraph a hoax! It has nothing to do with detecting lies.

You find out that your current spouse has talked to others about how 'they suspect me' or 'I failed the LD test!'.

A...I would be VERY worried if someone suspected me in a possible murder one charge - I'm not an advocate of the death penalty.

You see your spouse acting unusual while the rest of the family is working diligently on flyers and doing everything they can to cooperate with authorities to find your child.

A...IIRC Terri was very active in getting the flyers distributed.

Your spouse refuses further LD tests.

A...Since Kaine says he is a data kind of guy and I assume facts are important to his critical thinking skills, I'm stunned he would give a second thought to the outcome of a polygraph.

Your spouse will not answer questions for LE or tell where they were or what they were doing on the day your child disappeared.

A...LE has ALWAYS said Terri was cooperative.

Your spouse shows no concern for your child's whereabouts.

A...I don't know that as fact!

Furthermore, your spouse has packed up a box of your child's things and gotten rid of them.

A...I didn't know that.

Rearranged things in your child's bedroom.

A...I can't speak as to why Terri would rearrange the bedroom, not sure that I knew that.

You find out that your spouse tried to hire someone to kill you.

A...Repeat question - not fair! lol

... just to name a few

Are you telling me you would want LE to give you more 'facts' as you continue to lie in the same bed with this person night after night - afterall, there are no 'facts' to support they were directly tied to your missing child?

ETA: Altered your post to insert answers headed with an A. Changed the spacing but no wording. Hope that's ocay.

I can't speak to Kaine's state of mind or what he wants as facts regarding Terri. I don't know what I would do if my child was missing. I would want facts - facts give me peace of mind. I can quit trying to guess. moo

 

[gardeness]

I do know about Tarasoff as I work in mental health but my point was about the he said/she said...However, I thought there was a statement made that KH was given the information from LE which they (or he, or both he and LE) had found to be credible...I could definitely be wrong about this but my impression was not just that it was a warning under Tarasoff but a situation in which they felt he could be/have been in danger. As I said, I don't have the references, just recollection from someone with a not so perfect memory.

And still interested in knowing if TH ever specifically denied the charge.

bbm

Terri denied the charge immediately after the botched sting...