Willamette Week "The Kyron Files"

[citigirl]

I think there are a couple of different things going on--and they have mixed together.

The first is that LE and the bio parents have determined that Terri knows what happened to Kyron and that the fastest way to find him is to get her to tell! They have been releasing information to try to pressure her to cave and confess. The press is being used this way to help find Kyron.

The second thing is that it is human nature to want to understand what happened here. People want to know how such a thing could progress to this point. Personally I am interested in some of these details as they explain what kind of environment creates a situation like this. My questions are, what are the personality characteristics of a murderer? What triggers a murder? What could the bio parents have done to prevent this? What should they have seen? How did they contribute to the situation in ways of which they were unaware? What should the school have done?

I daresay most of us are not murderers, but any of us could be a victim or related to one. Or be parenting a murderer. Or work with one.

I think a deep examination of any crime is an opportunity to prevent another one. The details are important. We don't know which details ARE important, however, at this phase of the investigation. That's why they are all interesting to me as I try to figure this out.

 

[debs]

I think there are a couple of different things going on--and they have mixed together.

The first is that LE and the bio parents have determined that Terri knows what happened to Kyron and that the fastest way to find him is to get her to tell! They have been releasing information to try to pressure her to cave and confess. The press is being used this way to help find Kyron.

How did the information regarding Terri having taken ibuprophen and aspirin help find Kyron? How did the discussion of Terri's weight help find Kyron? I'm not being snarky. I am addressing the information "they released" as a tool to find him.

The second thing is that it is human nature to want to understand what happened here. People want to know how such a thing could progress to this point. Personally I am interested in some of these details as they explain what kind of environment creates a situation like this. My questions are, what are the personality characteristics of a murderer? What triggers a murder? What could the bio parents have done to prevent this? What should they have seen? How did they contribute to the situation in ways of which they were unaware? What should the school have done?

This same environment is described by the father of Kyron as "I thought we were normal, happy." Then when that didn't work, he said "She changed after she had our daughter." But he doesn't describe the change, only hints and innuendos about PPD or something else like body image... maybe.

Is there a murder here? The statements from Kyron's parents AND LE have been that there is reason to believe Kyron is alive.

Addressing what Kyron's parents could have done, seen, contribute....I suggest that having delegated the raising of their son to Terri with minimal input from them is what they should examine. The fact that Terri took on the responsibility for Kyron and was extremely active in his school life is constantly discarded or twisted into some motive, using techniques I've not seen Houdini use. It boggles.

I daresay most of us are not murderers, but any of us could be a victim or related to one. Or be parenting a murderer. Or work with one.

True. But as of this time on this date, there is no evidence of murder, nor any allegations of murder from LE.

I think a deep examination of any crime is an opportunity to prevent another one. The details are important. We don't know which details ARE important, however, at this phase of the investigation. That's why they are all interesting to me as I try to figure this out.

We don't know which details are important, but I suggest that the details we've been given which impugn Terri's reputation with no way to verify it other than as hearsay leaves me very uneasy. By the same token, we're told precious little about the other three primary adults in this child's life, as though they've lived pristine lives in the midst of this one horrific human. It not only seems unlikely, it IS unlikely. Those details are important for me. It isn't to bash them; it is to measure the WHOLE environment that needs to happen. I fully believe LE is. That's at least a comfort when I know we can't do it here.

 

[citigirl]

How did the information regarding Terri having taken ibuprophen and aspirin help find Kyron? How did the discussion of Terri's weight help find Kyron? I'm not being snarky. I am addressing the information "they released" as a tool to find him.



This same environment is described by the father of Kyron as "I thought we were normal, happy." Then when that didn't work, he said "She changed after she had our daughter." But he doesn't describe the change, only hints and innuendos about PPD or something else like body image... maybe.

Is there a murder here? The statements from Kyron's parents AND LE have been that there is reason to believe Kyron is alive.

Addressing what Kyron's parents could have done, seen, contribute....I suggest that having delegated the raising of their son to Terri with minimal input from them is what they should examine. The fact that Terri took on the responsibility for Kyron and was extremely active in his school life is constantly discarded or twisted into some motive, using techniques I've not seen Houdini use. It boggles.



True. But as of this time on this date, there is no evidence of murder, nor any allegations of murder from LE.



We don't know which details are important, but I suggest that the details we've been given which impugn Terri's reputation with no way to verify it other than as hearsay leaves me very uneasy. By the same token, we're told precious little about the other three primary adults in this child's life, as though they've lived pristine lives in the midst of this one horrific human. It not only seems unlikely, it IS unlikely. Those details are important for me. It isn't to bash them; it is to measure the WHOLE environment that needs to happen. I fully believe LE is. That's at least a comfort when I know we can't do it here.

I think the more prurient details are interesting to us as we try to understand what has happened here--not so interesting to LE--maybe more interesting to KH and DY as they try to paint a certain picture of TH that will isolate her.

I agree that the details about the other three adults are very important if we are to understand the environment of this situation.

I am addressing my comments to people who are asking why the media is printing a lot of these details. I suggest that people want to hear them, LE, KH and DY want to disseminate them and these might be legitimate reasons why they want to know them.

 

[TrY]

I don't have a problem with the Willamette Week blog article or the author James Pitkin. He might want to include himself in the list of journalists covering the Kyron Horman case though since he has talked to TH and wrote about it, and he has appeared on the "Nancy Grace" show several times to discuss the Kyron Horman case.

As to naming the LS, just because another newspaper doesn't name him doesn't mean he's obligated to follow their example. I read about the L.S.'s name before I ever read the WW article by looking at the same site that he mentions. So what if James Pitkin looks at other internet crime blogs? So do I and I'm sure many other people here do too.

I didn't know that D.Y worked as an accountant at an auto dealer and used to work at a bank, but that's interesting info to know how she and her current husband T.Y. met. Who else has reported that besides James Pitkin? Nobody else has written about the cause of D.Y.'s kidney failure but Pitkin so far either.

At least Pitkin has maybe debunked a story that D.Y. was a nurse. Where did that story get started if that's not true?

 

[BeanE]

I was surprised when I saw in the WW article that Kaine wouldn't give Kyron back to Desiree and she never tried to get him back, because I swore I had seen earlier in a video her saying that it was her decision, or a mutual decision with her and Kaine, that everything was fine, and she'd left Kyron with Kaine because everything was hunky dory.

I just happened across the interview that was in the back of my mind. It was Dateline.

Here's Willamette Week:

When the boy was 2 years old, Desiree suffered kidney failure she says was a result of taking a medication that was not FDA-approved—what medication, she won’t say. She went to Canada for treatment, but again has declined to give specifics. When she returned to Oregon, she tried to regain custody of Kyron and an older son from her first marriage. She was denied by Kaine and the other father, and never fought their decision in court.

http://www.wweek.com/editorial/3639/14358/?SOURCE=RSS

Here's Dateline:

DESIREE YOUNG: I had gotten to the point where I was in the hospital usually three or four times throughout the year.

KATE SNOW: Your kidneys were failing?

DESIREE YOUNG: Yeah. I was so sick that I was passing out at times.
Desiree says she went to Canada for treatment and gave Kaine temporary custody of Kyron. When she got back, still recovering and drowning in medical bills, they decided together that Kyron would be best off staying with his dad. She admits that, despite the anguish Terri had caused her in he past, she now thought Kaine and Terri could give Kyron a good life.

DESIREE YOUNG: I didn't see anything that I was unhappy with. I didn't think that my child was unhappy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38420266/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/

Also looking at this dateline transcript, I realized I'd missed that Desiree said she was usually in the hospital 3 or 4 times a year prior to Canada.

Was Kyron 2 years old when he went to Kaine's custody? So were those hospitalizations in his second year? Or his first and second year? Or back during her pregnancy too? I guess it's her use of the word 'usually' that makes it appear to me that it was multiple years where she was in the hospital 3 or 4 times a year.

So when did she start taking those non-FDA approved drugs? Surely not during her pregnancy with Kyron. So that makes me think she's referring to both Kyron's first and second years of his life as having had multiple hospitalizations.

Does the word 'usually' make you all think she means multiple years, or am I reading too much into it?

TIA

 

[matou]

I was floored when I read that Desiree could not regain custody of her TWO children. I can understand being poor from medical bills but is there something else to this too? Does she still have ongoing health problems? I can't believe the amount of dirt that's out there on everyone. I just want Kyron found and I'm not hopeful anymore that he is alive. JMO

 

[cluciano63]

I did not know that Desiree ever had custody of her older boy...did he live with her and Kaine when she was expecting Kyron? And then did Desiree live with her two boys for a while on her own? Until she went to Canada? I don't understand how both fathers were so able to keep her from challenging them when she was well again.

 

[debs]

I was floored when I read that Desiree could not regain custody of her TWO children. I can understand being poor from medical bills but is there something else to this too? Does she still have ongoing health problems? I can't believe the amount of dirt that's out there on everyone. I just want Kyron found and I'm not hopeful anymore that he is alive. JMO

Persons with chronic kidney failure are either on an extremely restricted diet (which includes restricting fluid and protein intake), have begun a regimen of dialysis (various therapies available, most of them are time sucks), or have received a kidney transplant.

I don't know how far her kidney failure had digressed to, but I can only imagine her health is always a concern.

 

[BeanE]

Persons with chronic kidney failure are either on an extremely restricted diet (which includes restricting fluid and protein intake), have begun a regimen of dialysis (various therapies available, most of them are time sucks), or have received a kidney transplant.

I don't know how far her kidney failure had digressed to, but I can only imagine her health is always a concern.

Is her kidney failure chronic? Or was it a one time thing? (I had kidney failure as a one time thing following a combination of several serious illnesses hitting me at the same time. No dialysis, no transplant.)

 

[debs]

Is her kidney failure chronic? Or was it a one time thing? (I had kidney failure as a one time thing following a combination of several serious illnesses hitting me at the same time. No dialysis, no transplant.)

She describes being in and out of the hospital, USUALLY, 3 or 4 times a year. That belies an acute onset like what you're speaking of, and demonstrates a chronic, long term issue.

 

[Day Dreamer]

Nope, not one item of Kyron.

We do however learn about the reporters pooping in the neighbor's yard. And Kaine target practices for hours on end while, I assume, baby K is napping?

WTH??

BBM WTH?? I believe I would be snapping photos of these "reporters" and turning them over to the police for indecent exposure (and any tabloid that would be willing to print them)!! Can you imagine the stories that would start popping up everywhere if someone involved in the case did something like this?

There is no way I would sit back and allow that to happen on my property for MANY reasons ... disgusting and a serious health issue! WTH is wrong w/ these people? What kind of person takes a crap in someone's yard? It reminds me of the movie Paparozzi ... trash, pure trash disguised as "reporters". Seriously? What is wrong w/ them?

I also have a HUGE problem w/ the fact that KYRON is not profiled. KYRON is the victim here! KYRON is the reason behind all of this!! Where is his photo?? Does anyone remember WHY we are all here ... it isn't Terri or Kaine or Desiree or DeDe or whoever ... it is KYRON!!!

This is an online article. How hard would it be for WW to go back and add photos of Kyron? Has no one complained?

 

[BeanE]

I can even live with them not having his picture, but I just strongly feel that in a story about the 14 most important people and things in this case, they should have started it off with at least just one sentence saying the most important person in this case is Kyron, and the most important thing is finding out what happened to him.

We can never lose sight of that in any missing child case. If we value our children, we must act like we do, show that we do.

 

[Day Dreamer]

I don't know much about guns. Wondering if a person can target shoot just anywhere? Can a person legally target shoot on their own property? Are there laws regulating such hobbies? ?TIA

I live in NC. In our state, it is perfectly legal to target practice on your own property as long as you do not live in the city limits.

ETA: My husband collects guns. We don't have to register them here in NC; and, it isn't uncommon for us to let someone borrow one of our guns. Kaine could very well have borrowed one from family or friends for self protection. I would be greatly surprised if he did not do that.

 

[AbbieNormal]

I think they mean FDA approved drugs being used for purposes they weren't approved for, because of their effects on other systems. Kinda like when minoxidil was noted to have hair-growing effects, or cytotec caused spontaneous abortions, or welbutrin diminished the desire to smoke, etc. So it could be she was prescribed this medicine, but for a purpose not approved by the FDA. Without further information it's hard to say. IMO, she was taking herbal, 'natural' meds of some sort.

JMO.

Some FDA approved drugs cause problems too- I took wellbutrin for 3 years for depression, took it as my dr. had directed (one daily) and had a grand mal seizure while in the grocery store alone, completely out of the blue, got a fx skull and huge split in the back of my head from the fall straight backwards as well as a nice badly bruised tailbone from it hitting the floor- was fully unconscious and awoke to being strapped down to a backboard by EMS...was in hosp for a week and was told it was all due to toxic levels of wellbutrin in my system- yet I never took more than one daily in fact some days skipped it altogether. My friend who worked at the groc store told me later my seizure was scarey as he77, foaming at the mouth, seizing, eyes rolled up in my head, the whole 9 yards.....really scarey. No, I don;t take that drug or any drug for depression anymore.
Just FYI

 

[Haeve]

Some FDA approved drugs cause problems too- I took wellbutrin for 3 years for depression, took it as my dr. had directed (one daily) and had a grand mal seizure while in the grocery store alone, completely out of the blue, got a fx skull and huge split in the back of my head from the fall straight backwards as well as a nice badly bruised tailbone from it hitting the floor- was fully unconscious and awoke to being strapped down to a backboard by EMS...was in hosp for a week and was told it was all due to toxic levels of wellbutrin in my system- yet I never took more than one daily in fact some days skipped it altogether. My friend who worked at the groc store told me later my seizure was scarey as he77, foaming at the mouth, seizing, eyes rolled up in my head, the whole 9 yards.....really scarey. No, I don;t take that drug or any drug for depression anymore.
Just FYI

Eek! Sorry to hear that Abbie.

Jumping off your post, I actually take Bupropion (generic Wellbutrin) for the off-label use of treating my AD/HD. And while this was prescribed by a medical professional, it is not an FDA-approved indication. So as has been discussed extensively, Desiree's kidney failure may be due to such an off-label use of a legal drug prescribed to her under medical supervision.

I was just reading up on the risks of Bupropion (thanks Abbie--I knew about the seizure risk and am not worried, but it is good to reread the warnings on one's medications occasionally), and see that "caution should be used" when treating patients with severe kidney disease. Nothing indicates that it may cause kidney disease, but it does show that this, like many other legal drugs, may affect kidney function.

I'm not saying it's not possible that Desiree might have something shady in her past, as broadly implied by WW, but there are other explanations.

JMHO, YMMV

 

[Day Dreamer]

Eek! Sorry to hear that Abbie.

Jumping off your post, I actually take Bupropion (generic Wellbutrin) for the off-label use of treating my AD/HD. And while this was prescribed by a medical professional, it is not an FDA-approved indication. So as has been discussed extensively, Desiree's kidney failure may be due to such an off-label use of a legal drug prescribed to her under medical supervision.

I was just reading up on the risks of Bupropion (thanks Abbie--I knew about the seizure risk and am not worried, but it is good to reread the warnings on one's medications occasionally), and see that "caution should be used" when treating patients with severe kidney disease. Nothing indicates that it may cause kidney disease, but it does show that this, like many other legal drugs, may affect kidney function.

I'm not saying it's not possible that Desiree might have something shady in her past, as broadly implied by WW, but there are other explanations.

JMHO, YMMV

Just an FYI ... I too have had complications from Welbutrin. Actually, it almost killed me! Whatever you do, DO NOT take any medications w/ Pseudoephedrine while taking Welbutrin!

 

[Herding Cats]

A quick note as to the kidney involvement and medication.

Often, it's not that the drug will damage the kidney; rather, it's that with reducted kidney function, a drug cannot clear the body in the same amount of time it would normally take; thus, the risk of overdosing (accidentally) is super high.

Yes, some drugs will damage the kidney just on it's own (or other organ - liver comes to mind). But some drugs just can't get clear of the system, and toxic levels build up in the blood, and OD'ing is definitely possible.

That's the reason that older folk cannot take the same dose as younger folk; over time, the kidneys do wear out, and lose function. In nursing, the adage for older folks is "start low, go slow" meaning decrease the starting dose, and only increase slowly. It's the same thing with known decreased kidney function.

Totally OT, I know, but hopefully it helps shed some understanding on how drugs are moderated (or should be) if there is existing kidney damage, and why some labels warn "use caution" if there is a kidney issue.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Billylee]

I live in NC. In our state, it is perfectly legal to target practice on your own property as long as you do not live in the city limits.

ETA: My husband collects guns. We don't have to register them here in NC; and, it isn't uncommon for us to let someone borrow one of our guns. Kaine could very well have borrowed one from family or friends for self protection. I would be greatly surprised if he did not do that.

I'm in So. OR and it's the same here. Although we don't loan our guns to anyone except family or those considered family. There's people target practicing around here all the time. The first day of hunting season is often a given holiday where some people work around here.

 

[AbbieNormal]

I did not know that Desiree ever had custody of her older boy...did he live with her and Kaine when she was expecting Kyron? And then did Desiree live with her two boys for a while on her own? Until she went to Canada? I don't understand how both fathers were so able to keep her from challenging them when she was well again.

Without knowing exactly what her kidney problems were, and as someone who has kidney disease myself, perhaps she was OVER the kidney crisis but on any given day was exhausted, and really wasn't in any shape to mother 2 children regardless of how much she may have wanted to. She could have had good days, followed by a few bad days. Not to mention her financial situation following her treatment in Canada. Times might have been "tough" for her for quite a while financially.
Hopefully she is healthy now, since she is able to work full time and looks fantastic, I tend to think she is probably healthy. It would take a selfless, loving mother to realize that her two boys, having been in the custody of their fathers and in a routine and safe nurturing environment (in her assumption, I gather, by her observations of their living arrangements) to surrender her custody and allow them to stay in their living arrangements rather than fight to have them and then struggle to get through some days raising them. I admire her maturity. Not a whole lot of mothers would do that, I bet.
All JMO

abbie

 

[Etilema]

What's with the insinuation that Kaine is shooting guns on his property? Is it legal to discharge firearms in that neighborhood? Is he known to own guns? Have there been any 911 calls about gunfire? (I don't think that neighbors hearing gunfire should just assume Kaine is doing target practice, especially as he is in the middle of high-profile situation.)

By the way, I think that Dede's prominent mention of having a fire extinguisher by her side while staying at the Hormans was to dispel the idea that they had firearms. Since it was specifically mentioned in the RO that TH should not have access to them, people had assumed/wondered if she might already have access to them, so I think Dede was trying to eliminate that idea.

But if there were not guns in the house, did KH take them with him when he left with baby K? Or is the implication that he bought a gun after that event? Wouldn't be too surprising if he did, for protection of himself and baby K, after all that has come to light and all the publicity. If that were the case, then it would make sense for him to be practicing shooting, to become competent.

I have no idea what the gun permit laws are in OR, whether there would be a long waiting period, etc. Or whether it would be legal to do any kind of shooting on that land.

All speculation and opinion by me.