You, the jury

[Mysteeri]

Mysteeri, I'm glad you asked this question, because for my money, it goes right to the point of it.

Yes, you would assume that PR/JR fibers would be found on her body an clothes. The problem is, they were not. No report, from the police, the DA's office, the Rs' experts, etc., exists which claims that parental fibers were found on the body or clothing. THUS, the logical conclusion is that the reason those fibers ended up on the tape, blanket, paint tote, panties and cord is because those items came into direct contact with the parents' clothing, which should not (and to hear them tell it, COULD not) have happened if they not involved.

Thanks for the answer, I forgot where I wrote and got lost with all the posts.

I guess we don`t know what fibers were found on her clothes, or if they were even searched. There should be some PR and JR fibers on JB whether they are innocent or not. Actually, shouldn`t there be PR touch DNA on the long johns, if she put them on her? The problem for me continues to be that I don`t know, from what I`ve read, what are the undisputed facts about fibers and are all the facts presented objectively (you can choose to present only R fibers for example). On a side note I was surprised at how weak the BP presentation was according to PMPT, little real evidence.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks for the answer, I forgot where I wrote and got lost with all the posts.

I'm always glad to help someone who shows genuine interest.

I guess we don`t know what fibers were found on her clothes, or if they were even searched.

Hmm. I'd say it's pretty safe assumption that that her clothes were searched, given what we know.

There should be some PR and JR fibers on JB whether they are innocent or not.

That's perhaps true. But as I always say in regard to these fibers, it helps to observe the larger context.

Actually, shouldn`t there be PR touch DNA on the long johns, if she put them on her?

Oh, brother! Mysteeri, a few weeks ago, this forum was absolutely abuzz with exactly that issue. I even wrote to Bode to find out. I didn't get an answer. But if you wait long enough, I'm sure that the same people who spoke about it before will do so again.

The problem for me continues to be that I don`t know, from what I`ve read, what are the undisputed facts about fibers and are all the facts presented objectively (you can choose to present only R fibers for example).

That's pretty much the problem we all have.

On a side note I was surprised at how weak the BP presentation was according to PMPT, little real evidence.[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess it's all in how you look at it.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks for the answer, I forgot where I wrote and got lost with all the posts.

I guess we don`t know what fibers were found on her clothes, or if they were even searched. There should be some PR and JR fibers on JB whether they are innocent or not. Actually, shouldn`t there be PR touch DNA on the long johns, if she put them on her? The problem for me continues to be that I don`t know, from what I`ve read, what are the undisputed facts about fibers and are all the facts presented objectively (you can choose to present only R fibers for example). On a side note I was surprised at how weak the BP presentation was according to PMPT, little real evidence.

Well for one thing, only R fibers have been identified by NAME, i.e. Patsy's sweater, JR's wool shirt. There are surely other fibers all over JB and the whole crime scene, but until they can be sourced as coming from a particular item belonging to someone who can be NAMED, JR and Patsy's fibers are all you're gonna get.
There were fibers described as tan/brown cotton. An American Girl doll has a tan cotton cloth body. These dolls also have a cord around their neck which holds the vinyl head on the body and the doll's manufacturer suggests putting a piece of duct tape over the knot on the cord so the knot won't tangle in the doll's hair. JB was known to have some of these dolls, and allegedly her Samantha doll went missing. Later, after her death, someone was said to have ordered a new doll and had it delivered to JR's Access Graphics office.
It may not mean anything. But if those tan cotton fibers could have been sourced to that doll, it would be another little piece of the puzzle.

 

[UKGuy]

Well for one thing, only R fibers have been identified by NAME, i.e. Patsy's sweater, JR's wool shirt. There are surely other fibers all over JB and the whole crime scene, but until they can be sourced as coming from a particular item belonging to someone who can be NAMED, JR and Patsy's fibers are all you're gonna get.
There were fibers described as tan/brown cotton. An American Girl doll has a tan cotton cloth body. These dolls also have a cord around their neck which holds the vinyl head on the body and the doll's manufacturer suggests putting a piece of duct tape over the knot on the cord so the knot won't tangle in the doll's hair. JB was known to have some of these dolls, and allegedly her Samantha doll went missing. Later, after her death, someone was said to have ordered a new doll and had it delivered to JR's Access Graphics office.
It may not mean anything. But if those tan cotton fibers could have been sourced to that doll, it would be another little piece of the puzzle.

DeeDee249,

I wonder if Patsy dropped the doll into the golf-bag or was it too large for this? One thing is for certain the doll played a role in JonBenet's death?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

I wonder if Patsy dropped the doll into the golf-bag or was it too large for this? One thing is for certain the doll played a role in JonBenet's death?

.

The doll is 18 inches tall, yes- it would fit in a golf bag. No, it is not certain the doll played a part in JB's death. It is just one of many ideas. Even if the fibers did turn out to belong to the doll, it doesn't mean the doll was part of the crime. Doll fibers would be expected on JB's clothes - she played with the doll. BUT if the doll went "missing" and was later found to have tape residue on the neck- but no tape- then I'd say we have a reasonable expectation that the tape came from the doll- and no intruder would have known those dolls may have tape on their necks. Parents have to tape the neck, it doesn't come that way, and not all parents do it anyway.

 

[UKGuy]

The doll is 18 inches tall, yes- it would fit in a golf bag. No, it is not certain the doll played a part in JB's death. It is just one of many ideas. Even if the fibers did turn out to belong to the doll, it doesn't mean the doll was part of the crime. Doll fibers would be expected on JB's clothes - she played with the doll. BUT if the doll went "missing" and was later found to have tape residue on the neck- but no tape- then I'd say we have a reasonable expectation that the tape came from the doll- and no intruder would have known those dolls may have tape on their necks. Parents have to tape the neck, it doesn't come that way, and not all parents do it anyway.

DeeDee249,

Well with a replacement sent to John's work, something was going on, otherwise why not send it straight to the house?

JonBenet was dead, just whom was the intended recipient, looks like the doll as the source of the tape appears as a runner. Was Patsy's fibers not found underneath the tape? Despite her saying she never went near the basement the previous night?

.

 

[Mysteeri]

SuperDave:

Oh, brother! Mysteeri, a few weeks ago, this forum was absolutely abuzz with exactly that issue. I even wrote to Bode to find out. I didn't get an answer. But if you wait long enough, I'm sure that the same people who spoke about it before will do so again.

Oh, I`ve missed a lot then.. Sorry that they did not answer.

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave:


Oh, I`ve missed a lot then.. Sorry that they did not answer.

Tell you what: I'll try and find them for you.

 

[Mysteeri]

Tell you what: I'll try and find them for you.

You don`t have to, really! You have important things to discuss. I can try the search function myself. But I think we can only speculate about Patsys touch DNA, if Bode did not answer.

 

[BBB167893]

You don`t have to, really! You have important things to discuss.

Yes, I do! Sure would be nice to find someone willing to discuss them! :biggrin:

But I think we can only speculate about Patsys touch DNA, if Bode did not answer.

That's about the size of it.

 

[Mysteeri]

Yes, I do! Sure would be nice to find someone willing to discuss them! :biggrin:

Hope you do! :innocent:

I think I found the right thread: "DNA revisited".

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Well with a replacement sent to John's work, something was going on, otherwise why not send it straight to the house?

JonBenet was dead, just whom was the intended recipient, looks like the doll as the source of the tape appears as a runner. Was Patsy's fibers not found underneath the tape? Despite her saying she never went near the basement the previous night?

.

The Rs had already left the house for good the night of JB's death. But it is still puzzling that a new doll would be ordered after she dies.

Yes, Patsy claimed to have not gone in the basement the previous night. What seeemed fishy to me was that when told about her fibers on JB, she claimed it happened when she threw herself on top of her body. THREE problems with that- her body was covered with a blanket and a sweatshirt, she was placed face UP on the floor, yet Patsy's fibers were found in the knot of the garrote, at the back of her neck, and the tape never made it out of the basement, having been tossed on the blanket by JB. It remained there (and can be seen in the crime photo to prove it) untik LE took it into evidence.

 

[MurriFlower]

The Rs had already left the house for good the night of JB's death. But it is still puzzling that a new doll would be ordered after she dies.

Yes, Patsy claimed to have not gone in the basement the previous night. What seeemed fishy to me was that when told about her fibers on JB, she claimed it happened when she threw herself on top of her body. THREE problems with that- her body was covered with a blanket and a sweatshirt, she was placed face UP on the floor, yet Patsy's fibers were found in the knot of the garrote, at the back of her neck, and the tape never made it out of the basement, having been tossed on the blanket by JB. It remained there (and can be seen in the crime photo to prove it) untik LE took it into evidence.

Would you kindly post a credible source for the doll story and the fibers from PRs jacket in the garrote?

The tape from JBRs mouth was tossed onto the floor as stated by JR (who was there at the time LOL). According to posters on this forum, the tape on her mouth was 2" x 2", so the tape in the photo on the blanket was NOT the tape on her mouth as it was supposedly (according to RDI) 'only for staging' and was too small to have actually prevented her speaking. Remember JR said there was black tape on her legs (by this he means where her legs were enclosed/wrapped in the blanket) as can be clearly seen on the crime scene photo you refer to and was quite a long piece (maybe 8" - 12"). There was also cord that is clearly seen in the photo, but this was not remarked on by JR, probably for the reason no-one else noticed it - it was the same colour as the blanket. If the photo is enhanced by changing the brightness and contrast, it is clearly seen to be wrapped around one corner of the blanket and back to the tape. There is even a twist in the cord near to the tape that is also clearly seen. http://crimeshots.com/csblanket.jpg

 

[UKGuy]

The Rs had already left the house for good the night of JB's death. But it is still puzzling that a new doll would be ordered after she dies.

Yes, Patsy claimed to have not gone in the basement the previous night. What seeemed fishy to me was that when told about her fibers on JB, she claimed it happened when she threw herself on top of her body. THREE problems with that- her body was covered with a blanket and a sweatshirt, she was placed face UP on the floor, yet Patsy's fibers were found in the knot of the garrote, at the back of her neck, and the tape never made it out of the basement, having been tossed on the blanket by JB. It remained there (and can be seen in the crime photo to prove it) untik LE took it into evidence.

DeeDee249,
Good points about her fibers, for me its more than fishy, its incriminating. There is no need for a new doll unless something about the old doll links the Ramseys to the crime-scene e.g. something present that could only be sourced inside the house, but which if duplicated could then be claimed to have been brought into the house. Someone was thinking far ahead here?

Had to add that John at some interview referred to the barbie-doll in JonBenet's bedroom. IMO he was attempting to explain away some evidence?
.

 

[MurriFlower]

DeeDee249,
Good points about her fibers, for me its more than fishy, its incriminating. There is no need for a new doll unless something about the old doll links the Ramseys to the crime-scene e.g. something present that could only be sourced inside the house, but which if duplicated could then be claimed to have been brought into the house. Someone was thinking far ahead here?

.

There are three points here:

1. Were there any fibers sourced to the jacket PR wore wrapped in the knot of the garrote?
2. Was there any doll and where is the evidence for this and it's link (if any) to the crime?
3. You are more than willing to accept anything anyone tells you that is incriminating against the Rs. Would you accept any evidence at all (however well sourced) that indicated an intruder committed this crime or would you just dismiss it in favour of heresay?

 

[DeeDee249]

Would you kindly post a credible source for the doll story and the fibers from PRs jacket in the garrote?

The tape from JBRs mouth was tossed onto the floor as stated by JR (who was there at the time LOL). According to posters on this forum, the tape on her mouth was 2" x 2", so the tape in the photo on the blanket was NOT the tape on her mouth as it was supposedly (according to RDI) 'only for staging' and was too small to have actually prevented her speaking. Remember JR said there was black tape on her legs (by this he means where her legs were enclosed/wrapped in the blanket) as can be clearly seen on the crime scene photo you refer to and was quite a long piece (maybe 8" - 12"). There was also cord that is clearly seen in the photo, but this was not remarked on by JR, probably for the reason no-one else noticed it - it was the same colour as the blanket. If the photo is enhanced by changing the brightness and contrast, it is clearly seen to be wrapped around one corner of the blanket and back to the tape. There is even a twist in the cord near to the tape that is also clearly seen. http://crimeshots.com/csblanket.jpg

The tape on the blanket is the tape from her mouth; that is very clearly a shadow and not a longer piece of tape. I do not recall anyone saying the mouth tape was 2x2, which wouldn't cover even a toddler's mouth.
Her legs were not taped. They would have still been in that position when she was brought up. What reason might LE have to deny the tape on her legs? There is no reason that makes sense to me- it could have been staging as easily as it could have been the work of the "kidnapper".
And I won't be providing a link about the doll. Anyone here have that link from the woman who worked for the Pleasant Co.? (manufacturers of the doll). This is the woman who came forward with the info on the doll being sent to Access Graphics after the murder.
I won't address again Patsy's jacket fibers with IDI, they have been discussed MANY times before. IDI says no fibers- RDI says the fibers match Patsy's jacket. LE said they had a fiber match. IDI says no, RDI says yes- The End.

 

[BBB167893]

The tape on the blanket is the tape from her mouth; that is very clearly a shadow and not a longer piece of tape. I do not recall anyone saying the mouth tape was 2x2, which wouldn't cover even a toddler's mouth.

That was my fault, I'm afraid.

Her legs were not taped. They would have still been in that position when she was brought up. What reason might LE have to deny the tape on her legs? There is no reason that makes sense to me- it could have been staging as easily as it could have been the work of the "kidnapper".
And I won't be providing a link about the doll. Anyone here have that link from the woman who worked for the Pleasant Co.? (manufacturers of the doll). This is the woman who came forward with the info on the doll being sent to Access Graphics after the murder.
I won't address again Patsy's jacket fibers with IDI, they have been discussed MANY times before. IDI says no fibers- RDI says the fibers match Patsy's jacket. LE said they had a fiber match. IDI says no, RDI says yes- The End.

:woohoo::woohoo:

 

[joeskidbeck]

There are a couple of threads about that doll here on WS. There are even posts from the woman who worked for the doll co.

 

[MurriFlower]

The tape on the blanket is the tape from her mouth; that is very clearly a shadow and not a longer piece of tape. I do not recall anyone saying the mouth tape was 2x2, which wouldn't cover even a toddler's mouth.
Her legs were not taped. They would have still been in that position when she was brought up. What reason might LE have to deny the tape on her legs? There is no reason that makes sense to me- it could have been staging as easily as it could have been the work of the "kidnapper".

What I see on the picture is what it is. There is a length of tape (8"-12" long) and some cord around one corner and back to the tape with a twist. I don't know what it means - yet!

I've looked on line and all the garrotting executions seem to be conducted with the victim in a 'chair', hands tied in front and legs secured to the legs of the chair. I'm pretty sure that her hands were tied across her and behind, like a straight jacket. That's different to anything I've seen. What the legs were secured to or how it was done I don't know. The length between the cord and the stick is a little like the pictures, some of which have 'claws' around the neck rather than a cord, tightened by turning a stick with a screw behind. As I said before, if they had used wire rather than cord, then the threat in the RN would have been carried out - she would have been beheaded!!

It appears it may have been a planned execution, eventhough I don't believe that is what it started out to be, if that makes sense. Perhaps there was a point of no return and the fantasy took over and this was something that had been imagined over a long period of time. Not really a place that I want to go, as it's getting into quite a weird part of someone's mind that I'd rather not explore.

And I won't be providing a link about the doll. Anyone here have that link from the woman who worked for the Pleasant Co.? (manufacturers of the doll). This is the woman who came forward with the info on the doll being sent to Access Graphics after the murder.
I won't address again Patsy's jacket fibers with IDI, they have been discussed MANY times before. IDI says no fibers- RDI says the fibers match Patsy's jacket. LE said they had a fiber match. IDI says no, RDI says yes- The End.

I find that I need to get the story in context. Things that are half remembered without being sourced and placed in the sceme of the killing is of no value to me at all. If you refuse to source then clues will remain unexlplored.

The fibers seem to be one of the examples of the reason why I need to know more facts. It's something that has never been proved, just suggested, so it will remain one of those is it/isn't it, that you choose to believe or not, depending in who you think did it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I find that I need to get the story in context. Things that are half remembered without being sourced and placed in the sceme of the killing is of no value to me at all. If you refuse to source then clues will remain unexlplored.

The fibers seem to be one of the examples of the reason why I need to know more facts. It's something that has never been proved, just suggested, so it will remain one of those is it/isn't it, that you choose to believe or not, depending in who you think did it.

:clap:

Compare the news coverage of IDI's DNA and RDI's fibers in the paint tote or garrote. There is simply no comparison on supporting facts from multiple sources and LE agencies.

This is because jacket fibers in the tote or entwined in the garrote is a myth. Either that or it has been ignored by the media, the GJ, etc for no reason. I would tend to go with the myth because had the fiber evidence been real as described here it would've weighed heavier in the news as LE would've pushed it.