Zahau Death Investigation

[MissJ]

IMHO, the account of JS being told about MS grave condition does not seem true to form.

Of course, I'm sure each facility and case may handle things differently. Unfortunately, in my experience, both parents were given the information together. They presented test results and pertinent medical information including the steps for the "brain dead" determination.

At that time, they discuss organ donations. IMO, MS would have been an excellent donor. I don't believe, at any given time, one parent would be more informed than the other.

Furthermore, unless there was an immediate medical change, they would not have disseminated information in (nearly) the middle of the night.

Excellent post. This information would have come sooner than later. The parents would never have been given false hope to begin with IMO.:moo:

 

[Carioca]

We already went over these pics. Some posters believe it is Dina. Others think it's the short Asian investigator.

The second pic on Bonepile's post is misleading as that's not the original pic which has clear pixels and the woman in the pic is MUCH TALLER, LARGER and HEAVIER than that. I suggest someone get the original pic posted again. As I recall, the woman in the pic with the black purse is about the same height as the tall, large, heavy detective holding the door on the right.

For the record, photo of woman at door of Spreckels morning of July 13. Below is photo of Detective Tsuida as appears in Ann Rule's book "Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors"

According to Ann Rule's book, Dina left hospital at some point early that morning after JS told her about Rebecca. Considering she was at her G Street home long enough to receive visit from detectives, it is feasible she could have "dropped by" Spreckels.

Dina says she got the news [from Jonah that Rebecca killed herself] at the hospital. […]
As Dina was leaving the hospital, a Coronado police detective paid her a visit. “Are you aware what happened?” he asked.
“Yes, it’s awful,” Dina answered. Later, at her home, two more detectives asked Dina what she thought about Rebecca’s death. […]

When Dina returned to the hospital, Max’s neurologists delivered crushing news: The MRI revealed extensive damage to his basal ganglia, the brain structure associated with motor function.

Excerpt from Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors by Ann Rule

In September 2011, a poster at CP was quite certain the person he/she saw in front of Spreckels on Wednesday morning, July 13, was Dina, and differentiated Dina from the female investigator. Am listing snippets from the comments:

• Poster states drove by mansion 3 times, between 11AM and noon.
• Noted a woman being lead by an officer back out to street in front of Spreckels
• Poster got a good look as was only 8 feet away as traffic was slow
• Woman was well groomed, well dressed, very put-together
• Woman was smiling and not upset
• Woman was wearing a long-sleeved sweater/blouse and pants, both light beige, neutral color, jewelry, black purse
  [*]Woman had long dark hair, past her shoulders, maybe had bangs or part bangs
  [*]Woman was only one there without ID
• Poster saw photo of Dina and recognized her as same woman
• Said had seen the video/photo of a "detective" woman (inside the mansion closing the door) and is not same woman (There were similarities of clothing, etc.)
• Woman did not have the white shirt, ID's, etc.

Link to article, but lo and behold comments are gone, although the comments are still there if search by name
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/report-reveals-other-injuries-details-in-coronado-mansion-death

Comments by a poster are merely observations/opinions, thus not fact. IMO they are not the same woman in the photos; they differ in height and weight, the black purse sags thus is not a computer case.

 

[time]

I'm not convinced that's Dina and not Detective Tsuida. The relative heights of the tow by the door look comparable to the bottom photo. Detective Tsuida would look a bit shorter in the second photo due to distance. Also, in the first photo, the person may not be as heavy as it looks... to me, it could be the clothes and the way the person is standing. It's not that I think it can't be Dina, I just don't see anything in the photos to say it is. I do hope someone can prove it is and thanks for the witness's view. Who is the witness again?

 

[K_Z]

Excellent post. This information would have come sooner than later. The parents would never have been given false hope to begin with IMO.:moo:

BBM.

The strongest evidence that has been released about Max's devastating injuries and his prognosis was on admission is the EMS report posted by Dina herself on her website. This clearly details a full cardiac arrest at the scene, that persisted despite the paramedics' best efforts for nearly 30 minutes (not including the additional amount of time Max was in cardiac arrest before paramedics arrived). 30 minutes is a prolonged arrest from any source, and arrests from BLUNT trauma are generally not from something that is easily treatable in the field. Very, very few people are resuscitated after a 30 min arrest from ANY cause-- and trauma victims who are resuscitated typically have penetrating injuries, rather than blunt force injuries. We know Max sustained massive blunt force skull trauma from the impact with the floor, most probably leading to an immediate cardiac arrest.

If we knew only these facts-- blunt force skull trauma in a child, leading to a sustained cardiac arrest of nearly 30 min duration, and we knew nothing else about the injuries or subsequent care he received, or what MRI's and other tests demonstrated, we would know with an extremely high level of certainty that his prognosis for survival was approximately 2% upon arrival at Rady as a transfer from Coronado Sharp. His prognosis for survival neurologically intact was essentially zero on arrival. (Please reference the extensive outcome studies about pediatric trauma and cardiac arrest I posted in the EMS report thread.)

Using what we know from the EMS report, independent of what Dina or Nina has said they were told, it is simply not possible, imo, that Max's parents were given any kind of hopeful prognosis for his recovery from the moment of his admission to Rady. Statistics do not lie. Blunt force head trauma in a child that produces a prolonged cardiac arrest at the scene is pretty much uniformly fatal, even if cardiac resuscitation is achieved. One of the largest studies of pediatric trauma and survival was done AT Rady Children's hospital a few years ago. Most definitely the docs knew how grim the prognosis was very early on, starting with the history of his head trauma and arrest, and building upon that with early diagnostic studies. They definitely would have shared everything with Max's parents.

It's understandable that a parent could be in disbelief, and not hear or understand the information. But it is not believable that they were given a hopeful prognosis for Max, imo. The medical records contain the truth, as I've said many times before. And if there are any civil suits filed for Max's wrongful death, the records will become evidence. We, the public, would probably not see them, however, experts for both sides would have access to them.

 

[Carioca]

I'm not convinced that's Dina and not Detective Tsuida. The relative heights of the tow by the door look comparable to the bottom photo. Detective Tsuida would look a bit shorter in the second photo due to distance. Also, in the first photo, the person may not be as heavy as it looks... to me, it could be the clothes and the way the person is standing. It's not that I think it can't be Dina, I just don't see anything in the photos to say it is. I do hope someone can prove it is and thanks for the witness's view. Who is the witness again?

Not sure if permissible here to say the screen name of the witness? Regardless, they were simply comments to an article and not substantiated with photos or fact and don't prove anything one way or the other... The question is where was Dina that morning and could she have been sighted at Spreckels behind the yellow tape.

 

[time]

Not sure if permissible here to say the screen name of the witness? Regardless, they were simply comments to an article and not substantiated with photos or fact and don't prove anything one way or the other... The question is where was Dina that morning and could she have been sighted at Spreckels behind the yellow tape.

thank you... As I said, I hope it was her and it can be proven. Could the Zahau's PI maybe find that poster?

 

[Angelonline]

Not sure if permissible here to say the screen name of the witness? Regardless, they were simply comments to an article and not substantiated with photos or fact and don't prove anything one way or the other... The question is where was Dina that morning and could she have been sighted at Spreckels behind the yellow tape.

:seeya:
No the screen name of a witness is not allowed, neither is discussing comments under an article. Remember those are rumor and we don't discuss those.
Thanks ~

 

[*Lash*]

Seeking clues from the dead

By Kristina Davis, APRIL 27, 2013

Snip -
In his 12 years here, he has never been in the spotlight more than in 2011, when the mysterious deaths of Max Shacknai, 6, and Rebecca Zahau, 32, at Coronado’s Spreckels mansion captured global attention.

He conducted autopsies on both, concluding with help from sheriff’s investigators that Max’s death was an accident and Zahau’s was suicide by hanging.

Snip -
Q: You performed the autopsies in the Coronado mansion case, which gained global attention and remains controversial. Tell me about that experience, and how it feels to be second-guessed.

A: It was an interesting phenomena. You really end up relying on your colleagues and focus on the facts, because you know everything’s going to be second-guessed. ... While we were in the middle of the investigation, we weren’t rushing anything. But there was a lot of pressure — What are the answers? How come you guys are taking so long? What’s going on? — but we still took everything to its conclusion. ... And then once we put the facts out and put our conclusions in, then people were, ‘Oh my gosh, you guys rushed to judgment.’ ...

I tell people I thought the first day that it was homicide, that was where I was in my head for Rebecca, but the investigation followed. ... It was the perfect example that you can’t do the investigation on public pressure, or pressure from families. You just have to do what you believe is the right thing.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/apr/27/medical-examiner-jonathan-lucas-san-diego/

 

[bourne]

Seeking clues from the dead

By Kristina Davis, APRIL 27, 2013

Snip -
In his 12 years here, he has never been in the spotlight more than in 2011, when the mysterious deaths of Max Shacknai, 6, and Rebecca Zahau, 32, at Coronado’s Spreckels mansion captured global attention.

He conducted autopsies on both, concluding with help from sheriff’s investigators that Max’s death was an accident and Zahau’s was suicide by hanging.

Snip -
Q: You performed the autopsies in the Coronado mansion case, which gained global attention and remains controversial. Tell me about that experience, and how it feels to be second-guessed.

A: It was an interesting phenomena. You really end up relying on your colleagues and focus on the facts, because you know everything’s going to be second-guessed. ... While we were in the middle of the investigation, we weren’t rushing anything. But there was a lot of pressure — What are the answers? How come you guys are taking so long? What’s going on? — but we still took everything to its conclusion. ... And then once we put the facts out and put our conclusions in, then people were, ‘Oh my gosh, you guys rushed to judgment.’ ...

I tell people I thought the first day that it was homicide, that was where I was in my head for Rebecca, but the investigation followed. ... It was the perfect example that you can’t do the investigation on public pressure, or pressure from families. You just have to do what you believe is the right thing.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/apr/27/medical-examiner-jonathan-lucas-san-diego/

B&RBM. Okay, sorry, IMO, this unethical, incompetent dud of an ME is clearly lying through his teeth! If he wasn't rushed, then why was it that there were altered dates on Becky's autopsy report? From what I recall, the first date clearly showed that he SIGNED off that it was a suicide TWO DAYS after her body was found. Then the DAY BEFORE THE PRESS CONFERENCE, the date was crossed out/whited-out and that new date in September 2011 was then inserted. STOP YOUR LYING, you politically pandering, bought-off, unscrupulous scoundrel. STOP trying to CYA now.

I hope there will be an internal investigation and his unethical, unprofessional ways will be discovered and he will be charged with fraud.

 

[Bonepile]

"Snip -
Q: You performed the autopsies in the Coronado mansion case, which gained global attention and remains controversial.

A: I tell people I thought the first day that it was homicide, that was where I was in my head for Rebecca, but the investigation followed. ..."
- - - - - - - - - - -

He should have gone with his first day thoughts because as far as I am concerned that investigation only muddied them.

 

[chinacat67]

What struck me in the article is that it said he reached his conclusions "with the help of" the SDSO. Under the law, it is the ME's sole responsibility to determine cause of death.

Maybe he meant simply that he received data and information from them etc, but to say that he reached the conclusions with their help makes it sound like they influenced his decisions, IMHO. The SDSO can want whatever result they want but that doesn't make any difference--the ME is charged with determination of COD.

It also was interesting that when I double-checked CA law on the ME's jurisdiction and charge, I noted that it looks like the coroner can hold an inquest. I wonder if the family has approached from that angle since other angles seem to be dead-ends.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk HD

 

[bourne]

What struck me in the article is that it said he reached his conclusions "with the help of" the SDSO. Under the law, it is the ME's sole responsibility to determine cause of death.

Maybe he meant simply that he received data and information from them etc, but to say that he reached the conclusions with their help makes it sound like they influenced his decisions, IMHO. The SDSO can want whatever result they want but that doesn't make any difference--the ME is charged with determination of COD.

It also was interesting that when I double-checked CA law on the ME's jurisdiction and charge, I noted that it looks like the coroner can hold an inquest. I wonder if the family has approached from that angle since other angles seem to be dead-ends.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk HD

Hmm, I wonder why no attorneys on the legal teams for Becky and Max have pushed for the coroner's inquest? Is it legally difficult to obtain these inquests? Can the public ask for the inquest?

 

[bourne]

I just read this article about lawsuits against medical examiners in NC because of the ME's "faulty death rulings." Although it speaks of incompetent MEs in NC, IMO, it's only a matter of time when similar lawsuits may come about in CA, particularly with respect to the ME's handling of the Zahau case. And I'm not only referring to the ridiculous ME ruling of Zahau's suspicious, violent death as "suicide" but also to the fact Becky's nude dead body was left unshielded, degraded, and eroded in the scorching summer heat for over 13 hours before the ME even bothered to show up at the crime scene on July 13, 2011.

~~~~~
"N.C. medical examiners are supposed to investigate suspicious and violent deaths, but the state’s former chief medical examiner for years was aware of careless work that raised the risk of faulty death rulings.

Now, Dr. John Butts, who oversaw death investigations for 23 years, is expected to testify this week in an unprecedented attempt to hold the state’s medical examiners accountable for their mistakes."

"At issue in the hearing before the N.C. Industrial Commission is whether the state should pay damages to grieving families for egregious errors by medical examiners."

"Families, law enforcement, insurance companies and researchers depend on medical examiners to find the cause of death in shootings, suicides, and other sudden or suspicious deaths.

They inspect corpses, interview witnesses and seek other evidence to determine the manner of death, which includes five broad categories: natural, accidental, homicide, suicide or undetermined. They issue rulings on the probable cause of death.

A good investigation can help solve crimes, determine insurance payouts, identify public health threats and ensure nothing is overlooked in a suspicious death."

"A 2001 Observer investigation found medical examiners failed to detect at least five homicides over a five-year period. Errors and oversights jeopardized hundreds of other investigations."

"Unlike states and counties with leading death investigation systems, North Carolina has no mandatory training for medical examiners."

"A limited budget and short staffing prevented the state from offering extensive training, he said."

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/04/28/4008087/suits-challengenc-medicalexaminers.html

 

[kittychi]

Finally some progress:

Update: Zahau Family to Sue County Seeking Evidence Gathered in Case
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/...ion?ncid=newsltuspatc00000003#comment_7230009

 

[iSleuth]

Finally some progress:

Update: Zahau Family to Sue County Seeking Evidence Gathered in Case
http://coronado.patch.com/articles/...ion?ncid=newsltuspatc00000003#comment_7230009

Ty so much for sharing this is great news. Finally some good news in this case. Praying for Justice for Becky!!

 

[time]

http://coronado.patch.com/articles/...ion?ncid=newsltuspatc00000003#comment_7230009

On Wednesday morning, attorney Marty Rudoy will host a news conference in downtown San Diego to announce that the family is filing suit to seek items seized in search warrants presented at the scene after the morning of July 13, 2011, when Zahau's body was found.

They include computers and knives investigators determined she used to cut rope to bind and hang herself from a mansion balcony.

They are also seeking records, including video of her autopsy, an interview with a witness in Arizona, where Zahau, 32, resided, and missing photos from the investigation file.

In addition, they would like to compare the original 911 call, Rudoy said, because there is an 8-second gap in the copy given to the family. He contends there is no such gap in the original recording.

The family wants to submit some of the items for further testing by private experts, Rudoy said, including a search for traces of other DNA evidence.

Good to see!

I hope we can get some answer to that freaky search, I've always believed there must has been some crumbs left behind on that.

Wonder who the witness is from Arizona?

As far as DNA, it seems quite possible advanced testing on it could lead to a suspect. I never thought the SDSD tried very hard on this.

Thank you Marty and Ann!!!!

 

[time]

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/may/08/zahau-family-evidence-controversial-death/

http://www.10news.com/news/zahau-fa...au-death-ruled-as-suicide-by-officials-050813

"The family will hold a press conference at 11 a.m."

http://www.10news.com/news/zahau-fa...au-death-ruled-as-suicide-by-officials-050813

 

[time]

The lawsuit, obtained by News 8, names San Diego County Sheriff Bill Gore and San Diego County Chief Medical Examiner Glenn Wager as defendants.

It seeks the release of evidence in the case, including missing crime scene photographs, DNA evidence, computer data, camera photos, surveillance video, cell phone data, ropes, knives, paintbrushes, and the bedroom door with a painted message on it that read, "She saved him can you save her."

The Zahau family attorneys plan a news conference Wednesday morning to officially announce the filing of the lawsuit, as well as the online posting of a new video that includes unreleased evidence photos from the Coronado mansion where Zahau was found dead in July 2011.

...The video will be posted Wednesday morning on the fundraising web site **************, according to Marty Rudoy, the family's attorney.

by David Gotfredson (glad to see he is covering this again)

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22189885/...eriff-bill-gore-seeking-evidence-in-her-death

 

[time]

In the video, there are a few new pictures taken outside. You can see that her feet look fairly dirty. What surprised me though is that her fingernails and hands/wrists/forearms look dirty - I can't quite imagine this is paint. What does anyone else think. I thought she had just taken a shower?

 

[coastal]

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22189885/...eriff-bill-gore-seeking-evidence-in-her-death

>>>snip

...The Zahau family released new evidence photos to News 8...

<<<snip

CAUTION! There is a photo in the border of this article which shows Rebecca's bound feet. I wasn't ready for that this morning.

Also, a photo of the painted door...

And (from this article):

...In the video, Rudoy also announced that the California Attorney General has denied the Zahau family's appeal to reopen the case...

BOO!