GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #12

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Tomkat,
I don't think you are being negative at all. I also think the search dogs in this case will probably be a big issue when and if SM goes to trial. My family and now I have surrounded ourselves with dogs as pets and working partners all of our lives. Although, I now prefer cats as pets. We have had sporting dogs and working dogs for cattle. I know from our dogs that the dog doing its job is only as good as the trainer and handler and the dog's own inclination for whatever job it is being trained to do.. I don't know much about the different dog teams used in middle and southeastern GA. I know that not all county LE have their own. The prison system has mantrailers and they have put on demonstrations at our school. I think these search dogs have to have certification and provable positive working experiences. I, like you, hope that the dogs used in Macon this past summer can withstand a defense mounted attack. I can't remember, did LE search the 3 apartments only after the dogs alerted? If so, maybe a problem there.

Hey Pearl, I 'm not sure when or why they searched other apartments besides SMD. But in my mind; random or otherwise, they didnt' search enough with the dogs. Were any hits found on the grounds or in the bins or dumpster areas? DID they search there too????? Someone?
 
Hey Pearl, I 'm not sure when or why they searched other apartments besides SMD. But in my mind; random or otherwise, they didnt' search enough with the dogs. Were any hits found on the grounds or in the bins or dumpster areas? DID they search there too????? Someone?

Most of the pictures from early in the case that I remember seeing were on the Macon paper website. They have since been removed or else I can't find them on it. I do remember seeing pictures of dogs and their handlers walking in some wooded areas in the neighborhood of the apartments. I think these were the volunteer people not the sheriff's office dogs. I don't know much about how a cadaver dog works. I know a mantrailer will search for the scent it has been given. If the dog finds that scent, he will follow it until either the person is found or the scent is lost. This type dog usually follows the route taken by the person even when it doubles back, etc. Then, I read somewhere that there are mantrailers that are considered to be air scenters and they are supposedly better at trailing than ground scenters. I don't know if a cadaver dog can scent the path a body has been carried or just scent where a body has been placed. If they can follow a cadaver scent trail, then it doesn't worry me that more apartments were not searched since the scent would not lead to other apartments. If they can follow a cadaver scent trail, then it does worry me. However, something led LE to the downstairs apartment and its refrigerator. The immediate interest in Lauren's and SM's apartments is obvious. The immediate interest in the downstairs apartment isn't clear to me.
Animals are amazing. There are even dogs that can scent some cancers, and a cat somewhere up north that supposedly can scent the approaching death of people at this nursing home. The article I read about the cat said that this cat would just sit or lay in the room for hours until the person passed on.
 
Thank you, Backwoods. I hope Lauren is looking down favorably, considering her passion for criminal defense. :(

I wish there was more information on the necklace (since now we know the bracelet was not missing at all.)
I can't imagine it would still be with Lauren's remains- unless placed there specifically?

Oriah, on what I bolded in blue: Your statement about Lauren could hold a lot of different shades of a lot of different meanings, I know, but it surely reminds me that it has occurred to me over and over what terrible irony -- Lauren being interested (so we have read from some sources, anyway) in becoming a capital defender, and then dying the way she did.

As I've stated before in these threads, I oppose the death penalty outright. (On that, I'm with Mr. Hogue, per the recent article.) Many times in my life I've had people say to me, "Well, if someone murdered your loved one, you would feel differently." I have thought about it deeply, and a lot. We can never know for sure how we would react in a hypothetical (and especially a horrible) situation, I guess, but I really don't think I would change my stance on the death penalty. (I do know that I probably could, in defense or possibly in the heat of the immediate aftermath of someone harming a loved one, kill that person myself.)

One question, though, I don't think I've ever had anyone ask me is, if I knew I myself would be murdered, whether my stance would change. (Asking the question of myself now, once again -- and more so than if a loved one were a victim -- I'm pretty sure my answer is no.) I have to wonder -- if Lauren truly did aspire to be a capital defender -- what her overall, personal stance on the death penalty was. It seems so mind-boggling and terrible even to wonder how she would have felt if she could have looked into her own future. I am glad that she couldn't.

On what I bolded in red, about the necklace:

First -- you did see the earlier picture of Lauren wearing the necklace, right? It appeared to be a fairly simple design, a single diamond (couldn't really tell the size) on what I would guess would be a fairly delicate chain.

Thinking about the necklace makes me wander back to the early days of the case. I don't want to break any rules here -- hope I can say that at one point someone posted some info from a site we are not allowed to link to, where there was an attempt to analyze some of the things SM said in his interview.

The point I'm wanting to refer to that was made is really kind of a common-sense thing, that occurred to a lot of folks I think, so hope I don't get in trouble for revisiting it here: At one point in the interview, SM says he and some of the friends walked around to see if they saw any signs of a struggle, etc., and "to see if she might have dropped something" (paraphrasing, but pretty close, I think). It was discussed that perhaps he knew something was "dropped", or lost.

I don't totally buy into reading stuff into statements like that, but in this case it is a bit intriguing: If SM is the killer, maybe that delicate chain broke and he didn't realize it at first and could not later find the necklace or part of it. bessie mentioned in an earlier post (recently though) that she suspected LE might have found broken bits of the jewelry, for example, in SM's apartment. That could be, or maybe it was lost outside somewhere and hasn't been found...? If it hasn't been found, I hope someone has given the area right around the apartments a good going over, and with a metal detector.

I agree with you; I can hardly see the necklace being disposed of with other remains. Possible, of course, but somehow I just don't see it happening.
 
Bumping for Lauren. :candle: I think of her every time I run.

Backwoods, I think your idea about the possibility that the chain may have broken and been accidentally dropped is smart!
 
Bumping for Lauren. :candle: I think of her every time I run.

Backwoods, I think your idea about the possibility that the chain may have broken and been accidentally dropped is smart!

Another possibility I see with this, if SM is the perp, is that he could have placed the necklace outside on the ground somewhere nearby to "find" as proof that she had "dropped something" when she was "snatched". But in that case -- why didn't he make sure that the searching friends "found" the clue? Guess someone could have found the necklace before ...?

Just theorizing.
 
Can there still be a change of venue for this trial? I'm beginning to think that may be a good idea. The interconnectedness (if that is even a word) of the legal community in Macon is starting to alarm me.

Though I am not absolutely certain, I don't think it is too late in the process for the defense to request a change of venue, pearl.

If you ever read the comments on the macon.com articles, you probably are familiar with those of a pretty regular poster, lawyer type apparently. I notice that person recently posted a long comment in response to someone's question about the possibility of change of venue. I found it interesting that, while this same poster has in the past said it was more likely that there would be an "imported" jury (as in Casey Anthony trial), now the same poster is saying that Georgia does not allow that -- that it would be an honest-to-gosh change of venue, if anything, with all players moved to the different county.

Poster said some other interesting things, too -- though I always take that poster with a grain of salt! You might want to take a look. The comment was made a short time ago today.

ETA: Just realized I didn't say under what story the comment to which I referred appeared --sorry! It's under the most recent macon.com article, the one about Hogue joining the defense team, at this link:
http://www.macon.com/2012/01/20/1870474/mcdaniel-team-adds-member.html
 
Most of the pictures from early in the case that I remember seeing were on the Macon paper website. They have since been removed or else I can't find them on it. I do remember seeing pictures of dogs and their handlers walking in some wooded areas in the neighborhood of the apartments. I think these were the volunteer people not the sheriff's office dogs. I don't know much about how a cadaver dog works. I know a mantrailer will search for the scent it has been given. If the dog finds that scent, he will follow it until either the person is found or the scent is lost. This type dog usually follows the route taken by the person even when it doubles back, etc. Then, I read somewhere that there are mantrailers that are considered to be air scenters and they are supposedly better at trailing than ground scenters. I don't know if a cadaver dog can scent the path a body has been carried or just scent where a body has been placed. If they can follow a cadaver scent trail, then it doesn't worry me that more apartments were not searched since the scent would not lead to other apartments. If they can follow a cadaver scent trail, then it does worry me. However, something led LE to the downstairs apartment and its refrigerator. The immediate interest in Lauren's and SM's apartments is obvious. The immediate interest in the downstairs apartment isn't clear to me.
Animals are amazing. There are even dogs that can scent some cancers, and a cat somewhere up north that supposedly can scent the approaching death of people at this nursing home. The article I read about the cat said that this cat would just sit or lay in the room for hours until the person passed on.

Here are the photo's pearl ... http://www.macon.com/2011/06/30/1615815_a1638124/body-found-at-downtown-macon-apartments.html
 
Though I am not absolutely certain, I don't think it is too late in the process for the defense to request a change of venue, pearl.

If you ever read the comments on the macon.com articles, you probably are familiar with those of a pretty regular poster, lawyer type apparently. I notice that person recently posted a long comment in response to someone's question about the possibility of change of venue. I found it interesting that, while this same poster has in the past said it was more likely that there would be an "imported" jury (as in Casey Anthony trial), now the same poster is saying that Georgia does not allow that -- that it would be an honest-to-gosh change of venue, if anything, with all players moved to the different county.

Poster said some other interesting things, too -- though I always take that poster with a grain of salt! You might want to take a look. The comment was made a short time ago today.

In that video you linked, Hogue says he would definitely ask for a change of venue if he were McD's Attorney. Wouldn't surprise me if that is one of the first things he does.

Hogue seems to be very competent, McD will be well represented at trial. It kind of surprised me when I read he knew Lauren and taught her in one of the final classes she took last year. Anyone else feel a twinge?

http://www.hogueandhogue.com/lawyer-attorney-1817422.html
http://www.13wmaz.com/video/1129111771001/0/Defense-Attorney-Franklin-Hogue-on-Lauren-Giddings-Case
 
Though I am not absolutely certain, I don't think it is too late in the process for the defense to request a change of venue, pearl.

If you ever read the comments on the macon.com articles, you probably are familiar with those of a pretty regular poster, lawyer type apparently. I notice that person recently posted a long comment in response to someone's question about the possibility of change of venue. I found it interesting that, while this same poster has in the past said it was more likely that there would be an "imported" jury (as in Casey Anthony trial), now the same poster is saying that Georgia does not allow that -- that it would be an honest-to-gosh change of venue, if anything, with all players moved to the different county.

Poster said some other interesting things, too -- though I always take that poster with a grain of salt! You might want to take a look. The comment was made a short time ago today.

ETA: Just realized I didn't say under what story the comment to which I referred appeared --sorry! It's under the most recent macon.com article, the one about Hogue joining the defense team, at this link:
http://www.macon.com/2012/01/20/1870474/mcdaniel-team-adds-member.html

I read those comment sections too. I'll have to go read the new ones.
 
In that video you linked, Hogue says he would definitely ask for a change of venue if he were McD's Attorney. Wouldn't surprise me if that is one of the first things he does.

Hogue seems to be very competent, McD will be well represented at trial. It kind of surprised me when I read he knew Lauren and taught her in one of the final classes she took last year. Anyone else feel a twinge?

http://www.hogueandhogue.com/lawyer-attorney-1817422.html
http://www.13wmaz.com/video/1129111771001/0/Defense-Attorney-Franklin-Hogue-on-Lauren-Giddings-Case

Knox, I hadn't watched that video since way back when it first appeared and had forgotten that he talked about change of venue -- but, now that you mention it, I remember. You could well be right that that might be one of his first moves.

Not sure exactly what "twinge" you mean, but I do find it a very odd situation. The victim and the accused both being former law students has surely put a lot of extra weird twists in this case. Hogue having taught Lauren ... well, I don't see it as unethical ... but I do find it a little unsettling.
 
In that video you linked, Hogue says he would definitely ask for a change of venue if he were McD's Attorney. Wouldn't surprise me if that is one of the first things he does.

Hogue seems to be very competent, McD will be well represented at trial. It kind of surprised me when I read he knew Lauren and taught her in one of the final classes she took last year. Anyone else feel a twinge?

http://www.hogueandhogue.com/lawyer-attorney-1817422.html
http://www.13wmaz.com/video/1129111771001/0/Defense-Attorney-Franklin-Hogue-on-Lauren-Giddings-Case


I personally feel like it's a little strange that Mr. Hogue is defending McD too being that he knew the victim. However, I think Mr. Hogue is simply on board with this trial to try and save McD from being put to death as he is an ardent opposer of capital punishment. From what I hear, he is the type of attorney who can go into a trial and separate his personal feelings from knowing that someone who claims to be innocent deserves a fair trial. I wouldn't be able to do it...but there are people who can.

I also heard, (RUMOR, RUMOR people) that Hogue was the first lawyer that McD called to come to his defense, and he turned him down. Now that the stakes have been upped, Hogue is back on the case....
 
I personally feel like it's a little strange that Mr. Hogue is defending McD too being that he knew the victim. However, I think Mr. Hogue is simply on board with this trial to try and save McD from being put to death as he is an ardent opposer of capital punishment. From what I hear, he is the type of attorney who can go into a trial and separate his personal feelings from knowing that someone who claims to be innocent deserves a fair trial. I wouldn't be able to do it...but there are people who can.

I also heard, (RUMOR, RUMOR people) that Hogue was the first lawyer that McD called to come to his defense, and he turned him down. Now that the stakes have been upped, Hogue is back on the case....


Thanks for sharing that.

 
In that video you linked, Hogue says he would definitely ask for a change of venue if he were McD's Attorney. Wouldn't surprise me if that is one of the first things he does.

Hogue seems to be very competent, McD will be well represented at trial. It kind of surprised me when I read he knew Lauren and taught her in one of the final classes she took last year. Anyone else feel a twinge?

http://www.hogueandhogue.com/lawyer-attorney-1817422.html
http://www.13wmaz.com/video/1129111771001/0/Defense-Attorney-Franklin-Hogue-on-Lauren-Giddings-Case
Yes, and I realize my reaction is coming from my heart and not my brain. McD's case will be heard by a judge with a special interest in mentally impaired defendants. He will be represented by an attorney who is a crusader against the death penalty. All well and good. I personally favor both of those causes. But in this case my only concern is that Lauren receives adequate representation since she won't be sitting in the courtroom day after day performing for the jurors. Nor will she have the opportunity to mug for the cameras. The post mortem photos will include a torso with no face to go with it. The jurors will see video images of a vibrant, healthy young woman. Will they make the connection between the living Lauren and the headless body part? I worry that they will not, and that the image of the curiosity sitting in the defendant's chair is what they will take home with them every night. The trial phase smells like a circus in the making, and that really bugs me.
 
On what I bolded in red, about the necklace:

First -- you did see the earlier picture of Lauren wearing the necklace, right? It appeared to be a fairly simple design, a single diamond (couldn't really tell the size) on what I would guess would be a fairly delicate chain.

Thinking about the necklace makes me wander back to the early days of the case. I don't want to break any rules here -- hope I can say that at one point someone posted some info from a site we are not allowed to link to, where there was an attempt to analyze some of the things SM said in his interview.

The point I'm wanting to refer to that was made is really kind of a common-sense thing, that occurred to a lot of folks I think, so hope I don't get in trouble for revisiting it here: At one point in the interview, SM says he and some of the friends walked around to see if they saw any signs of a struggle, etc., and "to see if she might have dropped something" (paraphrasing, but pretty close, I think). It was discussed that perhaps he knew something was "dropped", or lost.

I don't totally buy into reading stuff into statements like that, but in this case it is a bit intriguing: If SM is the killer, maybe that delicate chain broke and he didn't realize it at first and could not later find the necklace or part of it. bessie mentioned in an earlier post (recently though) that she suspected LE might have found broken bits of the jewelry, for example, in SM's apartment. That could be, or maybe it was lost outside somewhere and hasn't been found...? If it hasn't been found, I hope someone has given the area right around the apartments a good going over, and with a metal detector.

I agree with you; I can hardly see the necklace being disposed of with other remains. Possible, of course, but somehow I just don't see it happening.
respectfully snipped

Your post is fine, BW. I don't believe he would have deliberately disposed of the necklace, either. I do think it's very possible that the chain broke in the struggle (reports of scratches on McD's body indicate there was a struggle), or in the aftermath. It was probably lost or in pieces, and he wasn't able to recover the whole chain and the pendant, so he was worried that it might be found inside or near his apartment, or maybe his car. He tried to put on a good act in the interview, but imo, he was losing it and thus revealed a lot about himself and what was on his mind.
 
http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/9952-first-proceeding-hearing-scheduled-for-stephen-mcdaniel Tomorrow's our first day to see our boy wonder since the commitment hearing. Wonder if he will go into his zombie mode or look a bit more lucid and with it ? I am guessing still zombie since that is what his playbook for how to get away with murder calls for

I think we'll see a heavier, pastier, hairier, McD. I also predict he will be in full control of his faculties and fully interactive with his Attorneys. For the remainder of his appearances, I think we'll see him portray himself as a wrongly accused law school grad.

Remember, he was lucid enough to know he wanted Hogue to defend him, even way back when he first landed in jail. Zombie, my patootie.
 
http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/9952-first-proceeding-hearing-scheduled-for-stephen-mcdaniel Tomorrow's our first day to see our boy wonder since the commitment hearing. Wonder if he will go into his zombie mode or look a bit more lucid and with it ? I am guessing still zombie since that is what his playbook for how to get away with murder calls for

No -- we've seen him again since the commitment hearing -- in mid-December, when he pleaded not guilty to the sexual exploitation charges, remember? It was reported he seemed more lucid and interacted with his attorney.

read more here: http://www.macon.com/2011/12/13/1822086/mcdaniel-enters-not-guilty-plea.html
 
I personally feel like it's a little strange that Mr. Hogue is defending McD too being that he knew the victim. However, I think Mr. Hogue is simply on board with this trial to try and save McD from being put to death as he is an ardent opposer of capital punishment. From what I hear, he is the type of attorney who can go into a trial and separate his personal feelings from knowing that someone who claims to be innocent deserves a fair trial. I wouldn't be able to do it...but there are people who can.

I also heard, (RUMOR, RUMOR people) that Hogue was the first lawyer that McD called to come to his defense, and he turned him down. Now that the stakes have been upped, Hogue is back on the case....


bbm: That's interesting -- hadn't heard that, wonder if it's true...? I remember reading, I think, that Buford was recommended by someone at Mercer -- but maybe he was second on the list ...?

At any rate, Hogue does sound like he might would have had some reservations about taking the case -- perhaps because of his personal connection to Lauren, as we have been discussing -- but maybe his opposition to the death penalty weighs heavier on his moral scales.
 
Yes, and I realize my reaction is coming from my heart and not my brain. McD's case will be heard by a judge with a special interest in mentally impaired defendants. He will be represented by an attorney who is a crusader against the death penalty. All well and good. I personally favor both of those causes. But in this case my only concern is that Lauren receives adequate representation since she won't be sitting in the courtroom day after day performing for the jurors. Nor will she have the opportunity to mug for the cameras. The post mortem photos will include a torso with no face to go with it. The jurors will see video images of a vibrant, healthy young woman. Will they make the connection between the living Lauren and the headless body part? I worry that they will not, and that the image of the curiosity sitting in the defendant's chair is what they will take home with them every night. The trial phase smells like a circus in the making, and that really bugs me.

about what I bolded: I can understand your concern and what you are saying about this, but ... on the other hand -- I can't help but wonder if the judge's special interest in mental health might not actually work out to be a positive for Lauren's case if SM is the killer and an insanity defense is attempted (and I am not at all convinced it will be). I mean, it could be that a judge with special interest in mental health might also be pretty savvy about faking and malingering, couldn't it? I know that with an insanity defense we would be likely to see a "battle" of expert witnesses -- and that is what it is -- but maybe a judge knowledgeable about mental health issues would be better equipped to steer within the boundaries in a trial like that ...?
 
respectfully snipped

Your post is fine, BW. I don't believe he would have deliberately disposed of the necklace, either. I do think it's very possible that the chain broke in the struggle (reports of scratches on McD's body indicate there was a struggle), or in the aftermath. It was probably lost or in pieces, and he wasn't able to recover the whole chain and the pendant, so he was worried that it might be found inside or near his apartment, or maybe his car. He tried to put on a good act in the interview, but imo, he was losing it and thus revealed a lot about himself and what was on his mind.

I wonder if he was worried the necklace- or some part of it- might be found with Lauren's remains that have not yet been recovered?

More specifically, I wonder if he was sweating the metal detectors because they were close to an area where he knew the probability was high.
 
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