UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

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I rewatched some of the videos and something popped out at me: CM seems reasonably "well-fleshed" while MG seems gaunt, desperate for food, and ill. Could there be something even weirder going on in that relationship? It struck me that they seemed to be in different physical condition. MOO.
Exactly what I thought having just watched the videos . Well fleshed is a good description of her .
Her " get off him " and " let him eat he's starving " shows she's concerned for him .
I did think he could be showing signs of something needing treatment .
As for something weirder going on I can't imagine what because he seems dependant and willing to follow through her choices . Could he have left her? He said he didn't have any ID on him though? I do believe from their behaviour they don't think they have done anything wrong
 
Trying to eat while being arrested, surely he had 5 min between being at the shop and police turning up in which to eat. Arrogance not only this but refusing to put stick down. The game is up, do you really think police are going to let you keep holding a massive stick during arrest?
 
Exactly what I thought having just watched the videos . Well fleshed is a good description of her .
Her " get off him " and " let him eat he's starving " shows she's concerned for him .
I did think he could be showing signs of something needing treatment .
As for something weirder going on I can't imagine what because he seems dependant and willing to follow through her choices . Could he have left her? He said he didn't have any ID on him though? I do believe from their behaviour they don't think they have done anything wrong

Interesting that she says 'he's starving' isn't it? Not 'we're starving'.

Re. their behaviour, the most noticeable aspect of their behaviour IMO is the fact that they are refusing to disclose the location of the child. Which would suggest they know very well they've done *something* wrong.
 
My partner is a doctor. Thinks it's highly unlikely MG has T1 diabetes because he'd die if he was without insulin for a prolonged period, unless they had a large supply with them. T2 diabetes is a possibility but thinks it's more likely he developed frostbite or trench foot (aka non freezing cold injury) due to being cold and wet. Hence the plastic bags on his shoes. If this was the case, it would be yet another indication about how truly dire their living situation was.

Also noted that CM appears to be wearing boots in the CCTV, and think MG is wearing trainers? Trainers would have taken ages to dry if they'd got wet from all their traipsing around the streets, fields and woodlands during the winter.

This MOD doc has some interesting info about causes of frostbite and non freezing cold injury. The advice also says to give high energy foods to people with NFCI/frostbite/hypothermia. Hence the junk food and MG's desperation to eat perhaps? I'm now wondering if he became unwell, and his needs then completely took priority over the baby's. Another reason why they stopped travelling and settled in S. Downs area for a while too.

 
My partner is a doctor. Thinks it's highly unlikely MG has T1 diabetes because he'd die if he was without insulin for a prolonged period, unless they had a large supply with them. T2 diabetes is a possibility but thinks it's more likely he developed frostbite or trench foot (aka non freezing cold injury) due to being cold and wet. Hence the plastic bags on his shoes. If this was the case, it would be yet another indication about how truly dire their living situation was.

Also noted that CM appears to be wearing boots in the CCTV, and think MG is wearing trainers? Trainers would have taken ages to dry if they'd got wet from all their traipsing around the streets, fields and woodlands during the winter.

This MOD doc has some interesting info about causes of frostbite and non freezing cold injury. The advice also says to give high energy foods to people with NFCI/frostbite/hypothermia. Hence the junk food and MG's desperation to eat perhaps? I'm now wondering if he became unwell, and his needs then completely took priority over the baby's. Another reason why they stopped travelling and settled in S. Downs area for a while too.


Thanks for this explanation, great info :)
 
His feet must have hurt terribly and they’d be getting worse not better. CM could have found herself the last man standing the way things were going. They should be thankful for being warm, clean, dry, well fed, and (very) safe at HMP Hospitality Suite.

JMO MOO
 
His feet must have hurt terribly and they’d be getting worse not better. CM could have found herself the last man standing the way things were going. They should be thankful for being warm, clean, dry, well fed, and (very) safe at HMP Hospitality Suite.

JMO MOO
I think at the time they were arrested they may well have been days away from dying themselves.

I daresay that whenever and however they return to society their (in)fame won't lead to them starring in some sort of Bear Grylls/Ray Mears survival programme on a digital TV channel none of us have ever heard of.
 
Interesting that she says 'he's starving' isn't it? Not 'we're starving'.

Yep exactly, and throughout the arrest ordeal, CM doesn't really say anything about herself, or defend herself really, she seems fixated on MG's needs. He doesn't seem to express the same concern for her? It's all about him. His partner, the mother of his children, is getting arrested, his newborn baby is dead in a shed, and all he cares about is his chicken sandwich. Which is probably more about him trying to arrogantly assert some sort of control over the police, as another poster suggested. (Granted, we've only seen choice snippets of footage so far).
 
My partner is a doctor. Thinks it's highly unlikely MG has T1 diabetes because he'd die if he was without insulin for a prolonged period, unless they had a large supply with them. T2 diabetes is a possibility but thinks it's more likely he developed frostbite or trench foot (aka non freezing cold injury) due to being cold and wet. Hence the plastic bags on his shoes. If this was the case, it would be yet another indication about how truly dire their living situation was.

Also noted that CM appears to be wearing boots in the CCTV, and think MG is wearing trainers? Trainers would have taken ages to dry if they'd got wet from all their traipsing around the streets, fields and woodlands during the winter.

This MOD doc has some interesting info about causes of frostbite and non freezing cold injury. The advice also says to give high energy foods to people with NFCI/frostbite/hypothermia. Hence the junk food and MG's desperation to eat perhaps? I'm now wondering if he became unwell, and his needs then completely took priority over the baby's. Another reason why they stopped travelling and settled in S. Downs area for a while too.

He had plastic bags on his feet when they were in Whitechapel. I don't think it's been said they'd been sleeping rough or walking through fields or woods before then, except for a short walk across a field after they abandoned the burning car. NFCI seems a strong possibility though.

The question is how does whatever's wrong with his feet play in the trial. It could go like this: she was in such a state, even more so because of his illness, and their relationship is one in which she mothers him a lot, blah blah. (That last bit may be considered a trifle weird given that he's a lot older than she is, but it's not criminal, and given that he was in a US jail between the ages of 14 and 34 he may well be less than normally mature in some areas of his persona.) Got to wonder how far the crown will get if they use the defendants' continuing to hide after Victoria's death as support for their case. Say for the sake of argument they're not guilty. Then she would have been in a right state, or at least that's reasonable to suppose, unless she is Cruella De Vil. Are their known actions consistent with this supposition, or do they totally blast it out of the water as being as near as it can be to impossible? And that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury...

ETA: Cruella De Vil would have had no difficulty disposing of the body. Seagulls would have helped her if called upon. Cliffs, the sea. She'd have thought of something. She wouldn't be in a state.

ETA2: I wonder whether the prosecution are even going to mention his feet? If they don't, it could become a defence issue, and we'll have a position where (what may be considered) important colour to the story has been brought to the jury's attention by the defence.

ETA3: In an earlier court appearance, didn't he have a jumper or coat pulled over his head, or am I misremembering?
 
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I think at the time they were arrested they may well have been days away from dying themselves.

I daresay that whenever and however they return to society their (in)fame won't lead to them starring in some sort of Bear Grylls/Ray Mears survival programme on a digital TV channel none of us have ever heard of.

If only that was all we had to worry about when they are released to rejoin society.

My concern is they will inevitably be back together and what's to stop this happening again? Unless one or both of them is put on a tag, but that won't stop them making yet another baby, and I feel like contraception is one if the things that goes against their 'natural lifestyle', so they aren't going to be sensible.
 
If only that was all we had to worry about when they are released to rejoin society.

My concern is they will inevitably be back together and what's to stop this happening again? Unless one or both of them is put on a tag, but that won't stop them making yet another baby, and I feel like contraception is one if the things that goes against their 'natural lifestyle', so they aren't going to be sensible.
CM is 37 and I think it's fair to say she only has a few more years left of natural conception being realistic.

<modsnip - sub judice>
 
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Honestly, she has the more sympathetic life story. She's the poor little rich girl who grew up in splendid yet broken circumstances. Who fell into a abusive cult and then was trying to pull her life together when she had the misfortune of meeting an evil man.

It's easy to imagine this as a controlling and coercive relationship with a dangerous older man who was rotten from the start. After all he committed shockingly violent crimes when barely a teen and then grew up and was socialised in a violent prison system.

Honestly though... What's the evidence? There's been no mention of domestic abuse, or coercive control in their history. She's shown no hint of being afraid of him, or led by him. Hell, by her body language and witness statements she seemed to be leading and making decisions half the time.

She had the resources and connections (in multiple countries) to get away. She stayed even when her kids were taken. What's more, she made every attempt to obscure the record of even her first baby with him. Now this happens in high control relationships don't get me wrong, but usually there are still signs someone is under duress. What signs are there here?

I think they were fully committed to eachother in some F-ed up, trauma bonded, two person cult kind of way.

She was this princess he couldn't believe would stoop to him. He was this tragic yet interestingly rough child victim of the racist American justice system. The more concerned her family, her friends social services were. The more it reinforced their 'the world doesn't understand,' persecution narrative of their tragic love story. Particularly if much of social services concern was (or perceived to be) around his childhood offences.

So they got progressively more insular and isolated the more their 'family life' was interfered with. As restrictions and monitoring was ordered. When family and friends made SS concern reports or called the police. As one by one (or all at once,) their kids were removed.

He probably had a natural distaste for governmental authorities still controlling his life. She likely had her own cult trauma about being forced to follow such rules as well. Also a good dash of entitlement from never being in the kind of social group who were subject to such treatment from government services.

I think both of them were all in on this this plan/fantasy to finally have a family that was free of all this prejudicial government and classist family interference. Totally disregarding that both had been repeatedly shown to be unfit parents.

When it went tiits up and the police and whole country was out looking for them and then his crimes and her past were broadcast to on the front page. It super turbocharged all of their previous persecution narratives.

No matter how softy softy the police were in their messaging and statements, there was no hiding their past or having this quiet normal family now. This would be the thing everyone knew about them and the internet is forever.

Unfortunately as it turns out, the only thing they proved was that the authorities had been entirely correct to remove all their kids.

Might be wrong. Maybe she is his victim, but it would be the obvious card for her to play in this and it's not been part of her defense. Maybe that's his control or maybe she has enough integrity not to lie about it idk. However personally I have no intention of giving her an ounce less accountability than he gets until there's evidence she deserves it. So far there ain't.

In my opinion. Obviously.
I agree with you in many ways, especially about the two person cult. I just think there may be less of it being entirely led by CM. I do think they have ended up in a place where physically he’s weaker and both are totally in their own world. I was thinking more than many women appear to be infatuated by someone and when they go to prison, that’s when they realise they’ve been abused and admit to it. However, I could well be wrong about it not being led by CM. I was looking at the daddy bear comments as potentially linked to TB Joshua Cult, but they could well be a form of coercive control in themselves.

Either way, I don’t see her as an innocent party in the relationship, whether she originally led or not. I just also think some evidence about MG life and behaviour indicates some pretty big issues and I don’t think he’s been forced into things that much, whether he appears more submissive or not. Also I haven’t seen the body cam footage yet, only heard it, so perhaps that’ll change my mind.
 
I agree with you in many ways, especially about the two person cult. I just think there may be less of it being entirely led by CM. I do think they have ended up in a place where physically he’s weaker and both are totally in their own world. I was thinking more than many women appear to be infatuated by someone and when they go to prison, that’s when they realise they’ve been abused and admit to it. However, I could well be wrong about it not being led by CM. I was looking at the daddy bear comments as potentially linked to TB Joshua Cult, but they could well be a form of coercive control in themselves.

Either way, I don’t see her as an innocent party in the relationship, whether she originally led or not. I just also think some evidence about MG life and behaviour indicates some pretty big issues and I don’t think he’s been forced into things that much, whether he appears more submissive or not. Also I haven’t seen the body cam footage yet, only heard it, so perhaps that’ll change my mind.
Another factor to consider is the money aspect. If MG was totally reliant upon CM for food etc. (as he does not appear to have been employed for some years), he may well not have wanted to compromise his financial "security". I do consider them both equally culpable here until I see any evidence to the contrary.

There were times throughout their jaunt across the UK when they were both alone for short spells at least e.g) shopping in Whitechapel and either one of them could have sought help from a passer by or the police to avert this tragedy for Victoria but failed to do so.

IMO when they were each arrested, they both displayed a certain air of entitlement and arrogance to the police and certainly didn't display any signs of remorse or care for the whereabouts of baby Victoria.
 
Another factor to consider is the money aspect. If MG was totally reliant upon CM for food etc. (as he does not appear to have been employed for some years), he may well not have wanted to compromise his financial "security". I do consider them both equally culpable here until I see any evidence to the contrary.

There were times throughout their jaunt across the UK when they were both alone for short spells at least e.g) shopping in Whitechapel and either one of them could have sought help from a passer by or the police to avert this tragedy for Victoria but failed to do so.

IMO when they were each arrested, they both displayed a certain air of entitlement and arrogance to the police and certainly didn't display any signs of remorse or care for the whereabouts of baby Victoria.
Very good points. I hadn’t thought about the financial aspect in the relationship for some reason (only parenting), even though it can be such a big factor.
 
He had plastic bags on his feet when they were in Whitechapel. I don't think it's been said they'd been sleeping rough or walking through fields or woods before then, except for a short walk across a field after they abandoned the burning car. NFCI seems a strong possibility though.

The question is how does whatever's wrong with his feet play in the trial. It could go like this: she was in such a state, even more so because of his illness, and their relationship is one in which she mothers him a lot, blah blah. (That last bit may be considered a trifle weird given that he's a lot older than she is, but it's not criminal, and given that he was in a US jail between the ages of 14 and 34 he may well be less than normally mature in some areas of his persona.) Got to wonder how far the crown will get if they use the defendants' continuing to hide after Victoria's death as support for their case. Say for the sake of argument they're not guilty. Then she would have been in a right state, or at least that's reasonable to suppose, unless she is Cruella De Vil. Are their known actions consistent with this supposition, or do they totally blast it out of the water as being as near as it can be to impossible? And that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury...

ETA: Cruella De Vil would have had no difficulty disposing of the body. Seagulls would have helped her if called upon. Cliffs, the sea. She'd have thought of something. She wouldn't be in a state.

ETA2: I wonder whether the prosecution are even going to mention his feet? If they don't, it could become a defence issue, and we'll have a position where (what may be considered) important colour to the story has been brought to the jury's attention by the defence.

ETA3: In an earlier court appearance, didn't he have a jumper or coat pulled over his head, or am I misremembering?

Not sure anyone's going to be that bothered about his feet when a tiny baby is dead. JMO.

Why do you say he has plastic bags on his feet in Whitechapel? Can you link to the CCTV?

( I remember him as wearing brown trainers with white soles, they looked quite new, in the kebab shop. And later with the buggy I don't remember plastic bags. But could be wrong. )
 
I can't get to this conclusion at all.
Given their record with four previous children/babies, the only way this fifth baby would have been fine would have been if she had been removed from them very quickly, I can't see that there was a moment to spare.

I also don’t see any indications in any of the information so far that any baby would have been safe in their care had there not been a nationwide search.
What I mean is that if they hadn't been aware that there was a highly publicised nationwide hunt for them, they would have taken less care to hide. She would probably have used her bank cards or withdrawn money sooner and been traceable that way.
 
What's the minimum amount of petrol you can buy at a pump? I thought it was 5 litres. Perhaps this means if you buy half a pint you will be charged for 5 litres?
I'm not aware of a minimum. In the summer I regularly buy small amounts of petrol for the lawnmower (it runs better when the petrol is fresh) and I've never encountered a problem.
 
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A fire...... hopefully it's just a drill...?



10:45am

Evacuation from court​

The Old Bailey is currently being evacuated after reports of a fire.
We will bring you more updates from today's trial as soon as we can.


10:34am

We are waiting for proceedings to begin.
 
The Argus Live Feed

A fire...... hopefully it's just a drill...?



10:45am

Evacuation from court​

The Old Bailey is currently being evacuated after reports of a fire.
We will bring you more updates from today's trial as soon as we can.


10:34am

We are waiting for proceedings to begin.
Fires seem to follow those two around!
 
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