Match! NY - Caledonia, WhtFem 1UFNY, 13-19, Turquoise Necklace, Nov'79 *Tammy Alexander*

Nameless Helper said:

I have to say of all the possibilities Judith looks like the most likey match. If she was in captivity that would explain why nobody knows her. Also her captor may not have wanted her around as she got older so it may have been planned. On another line of thinking, perhaps more likely, she would be seeking more independence at her age which would be a threat to her captor so it could have just erupted in a fight where he made a snap decision.

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Except she has been submitted and ruled out on at least 2 prior occasions.( And Now submitted for a third time) If you look at her photo neither the shape of her eyes nor the shape of her nose comes even close to Cali's. I will admit there is a resemblance, but if we keep submitting and resubmitting girls that have been ruled out, all we are going to do is close the avenue of communication we have open and waste needed resources.

DrDMike said:

DNA from both cases are in CODIS and if they were one in the same, it would have notified LE. They are most likely not the same person. Also, if you look at the more recent Cali picture, she looks different than the original.

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I do not think asking for manual comparisons is a problem. We have gotten several match's on WS by doing just that. I actually encourage people asking for manual comparisons, as we have been told in my sisters case, that is the only way to be certain they do not match. No system is 100% mistake proof.

That is not saying the system in place is not a good one....I feel it is the best system that has been in place so far....it is simply stating it is not perfect.

I do agree that the newest photo of Cali removes all similarities between her and Judith. I also know M. Burgess has been asking us to use the new photo as 30 plus years with the old photo, or PM photo resulted in not finding her name.

Either way, no matter which photo you use.....Judith was submitted twice, and both times there was no match......now her name has been sent in a third time, along with a request that she be added to the list of those already ruled out so we are not having this same discussion about her in another year.

Still_Seek_Answers said:

I do not think asking for manual comparisons is a problem. We have gotten several match's on WS by doing just that. I actually encourage people asking for manual comparisons, as we have been told in my sisters case, that is the only way to be certain they do not match. No system is 100% mistake proof.

That is not saying the system in place is not a good one....I feel it is the best system that has been in place so far....it is simply stating it is not perfect.

I do agree that the newest photo of Cali removes all similarities between her and Judith. I also know M. Burgess has been asking us to use the new photo as 30 plus years with the old photo, or PM photo resulted in not finding her name.

Either way, no matter which photo you use.....Judith was submitted twice, and both times there was no match......now her name has been sent in a third time, along with a request that she be added to the list of those already ruled out so we are not having this same discussion about her in another year.

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I think your concerns are coming from the right place and I thank you for sharing them with all of us.


There's really no right or wrong answers to how to approach finding a potential match. That said, I have been trying to keep in mind that if I have the ability to find out about that case through Doe, Charley, NamUs, etc., the investigator does too. He doesn't need me to submit to him every case I find of girls who remotely match his UID. Now suppose his girl was a suicide and my suggestion was struggling with depression. Or suppose his girl and my suggestion both had previously fractured right wrists? Or were both wearing Seiko watches? Then, maybe I'm saving him time by helping him test more likely cases first instead of just throwing out random stuff at him. That's how I try and think about it.

When we have an actual post-mortem, as in Cali's case, I think we should be more selective in what we submit. I understand not everyone wants to look at those, so maybe if not, they can ask someone else to make the comparison? A lot of the suggestions for Cali can be pretty much ruled out just by careful comparison to that photo.

Irish_Eyes said:

I think your concerns are coming from the right place and I thank you for sharing them with all of us.


There's really no right or wrong answers to how to approach finding a potential match. That said, I have been trying to keep in mind that if I have the ability to find out about that case through Doe, Charley, NamUs, etc., the investigator does too. He doesn't need me to submit to him every case I find of girls who remotely match his UID. Now suppose his girl was a suicide and my suggestion was struggling with depression. Or suppose his girl and my suggestion both had previously fractured right wrists? Or were both wearing Seiko watches? Then, maybe I'm saving him time by helping him test more likely cases first instead of just throwing out random stuff at him. That's how I try and think about it.

When we have an actual post-mortem, as in Cali's case, I think we should be more selective in what we submit. I understand not everyone wants to look at those, so maybe if not, they can ask someone else to make the comparison? A lot of the suggestions for Cali can be pretty much ruled out just by careful comparison to that photo.

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Yes they can. Even on the last mist I submitted, I told Burgess upfront that I felt if any of them matched, it would most likely be the girl who did not have a photo on NAMUS. (Linda Adams) I did not feel as if any of the others had enough features in common with either the PM photo or the NCMEC photo that Burgess is now requesting we use.
I do not feel that all the people who have spent years trying to ID this girl have overlooked her on any of the usual lists. However they do still need to be constantly rechecked. Sometimes people get added to them that have been missing a very long time. I'd hate to see her get added and overlooked simply because the lists have all been checked so many times.

Reply from M. Burgess regarding Judith Elwell on 3/19/2014. Hopefully this means he is making sure she makes it to the NAMUS rule out list this year.

Annie,
The name sounds familiar to me. We are looking into it to see if she has been ruled out or not.



Matthew D. Burgess, Chief Deputy
Police Services
Livingston County Sheriff's Office
4 Court St.
Geneseo, NY 14454

Judith Elwell has been added to the list of those ruled out as Cali. She is not a match.

Updated ruled out list:

Exclusions

The following people have been ruled out as being this decedent:

First Name Last Name Year of Birth State LKA

Linda Adams 1963 Washington

Teresa Alfonso 1961 Florida

Lisa Borden 1960 Texas

Mary Bostwick 1956 New York

Mary Bostwick 1956 Pennsylvania

Melinda Creech 1965 Indiana

Teresa Davis 1955 Washington

Alexis Duggan 1951 Florida

Judith Elwell 1962 Oklahoma

Teresa Fitin 1957 Florida

Lorraine Herbster 1962 New Jersey

Eileen Hynson 1957 California

Nancy Jason 1958 Maryland

Karen Kamsch 1962 Maryland

Tina Kemp 1964 Delaware

Cynthia Kinney 1960 Oklahoma

Sandra Landrum 1957 Georgia

Mary Lozano 1964 California

Deborah McCall 1963 Illinois

Angela Meeker 1965 Washington

Barbara Monaco 1960 Virginia

Deborah Quimby 1963 Massachusetts

Angela Ramsey 1961 Florida

Marcia Remick 1962 Virginia

Simone Ridinger 1960 Massachusetts

Mary Shinn 1953 Arkansas

Roxanne Sims 1958 Oregon

Debra Spickler 1955 Connecticut

Sarah Tokier 1960 California

Belinda VanLith 1957 Minnesota

Anna Waters 1967 California

Christina White 1967 Washington

April Zane 1960 Illinois

Karen Zendrosky

Hi Folks,

Starting to think about Cali again b/c I had a dream a bunch of us were contacting a psychic about her.

So, here are a few more missing girls to consider:

Patricia Joan Chescher (missing from NM, which goes with Cali's isotope testing. We've brought up Patricia before as being a possible match, but I don't think she's been ruled out by an professional organization. I say we formally submit her.)

Helen Marie Green (Reading her thread- it was mentioned that her face resembles Cali. And being a runaway fits with Cali's story.)

Selinda "Cindy" Winegar (Vermont-, missing since 1979, height weight close enough to Cali's. Maybe a long shot, but we should submit.)

annegrete said:

Hi Folks,

Starting to think about Cali again b/c I had a dream a bunch of us were contacting a psychic about her.

So, here are a few more missing girls to consider:

Patricia Joan Chescher (missing from NM, which goes with Cali's isotope testing. We've brought up Patricia before as being a possible match, but I don't think she's been ruled out by an professional organization. I say we formally submit her.)

Helen Marie Green (Reading her thread- it was mentioned that her face resembles Cali. And being a runaway fits with Cali's story.)

Selinda "Cindy" Winegar (Vermont-, missing since 1979, height weight close enough to Cali's. Maybe a long shot, but we should submit.)

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I submitted Helen Marie Green back in October to M. Burgess. She has no DNA and is not listed anywhere with anyway to do a comparison. I am currently trying to track down one of her brothers. She needs to be "officially" listed as missing, and DNA swabs done of her siblings.

Roselvr and I have tracked down the family of Helen Marie Green. We showed them Cali's photo and they are very certain that Helen is not Cali. Until they are ready to list her as missing, there really is not much more we can do on Helen's case.

Still_Seek_Answers said:

Roselvr and I have tracked down the family of Helen Marie Green. We showed them Cali's photo and they are very certain that Helen is not Cali. Until they are ready to list her as missing, there really is not much more we can do on Helen's case.

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I am coming in late on this conversation but can you tell me where Helen Green has to be listed as missing before anyone can consider her. Personally, I don't believe this is Cali, but there is no reason for a person to be missing, with family members alive and NOT be listed to be considered in a UP investigation.

I have not checked if her parents are still alive, but you said you tracked them down and I have their names. So, here are my questions:
Are they (parents) denying she is missing, and why doesn't her brother have her listed with an agency of place last seen as a missing person?

I have a cousin - missing since 1960 and not reported by parents or husband, other than she "probably" left of her own free will which is a load of crap. However, I had her listed as missing based solely on the place last seen and that was very recent. She is now listed!

So, what is with the brother?

Helen's parents are deceased. Roselvr and I tracked down her siblings. They were told by a cousin that Helen made it safely to the place she was heading for when she ran away. They then told us what name she began using once she arrived there. In their words, they are totally content thinking Helen made it out alive, changed her name and simply does not wish to be contacted.
As her family,....it is her family's decision as to rather or not she is listed as a missing person. Unless she is listed in a MP data base, no DNA....no dental...no way to compare her with anybody.

The difference in your example is that you are a family member of your cousin. So far, we have not been able to convince any of Helen's family members to list her as missing.

Helen and her siblings were raised in a very abusive household. They do not wish to raise terrible memories. That is the reason Helen and her brother ran away together. WE have built a relationship with them and they are beginning to trust us, somewhat.


I am going to refer to Carl on this answer. My understanding is in order to consider a person, they have to be listed in one of the MP databases, or at the very least have a family member who acknowledges that person is indeed missing. At the current time we have neither.

Roselvr and I are still communicating with Helen's family. We are hoping that with time and patience they may change their minds and be willing to have her listed as missing. Doing so, or not doing so is their right, and theirs alone.

As a person that has a sister missing, I completely disagree with this statement. (there is no reason for a person to be missing, with family members alive and NOT be listed to be considered in a UP investigation.) My sister is ours, her photo's, her information, her memory. Everything about her belongs to us, her remaining siblings. ( Our parents are also deceased) Nobody has the right to take any part of her from us without our permission. No matter what their intentions, or how well meaning they are!!! In my sisters case we have her listed in all the data bases, That is our decision, and ours alone.No outsider has the right to step in and make that choice for us.

Lastly, I did not once say Helen could not be considered in any UP case, I stated a simple fact......until she is reported/listed as missing in one of the databases....until her family agrees to give DNA samples or her dental records.....or even better, both....there is no way to compare her with anybody.

Still_Seek_Answers said:

Helen's parents are deceased. Roselvr and I tracked down her siblings. They were told by a cousin that Helen made it safely to the place she was heading for when she ran away. They then told us what name she began using once she arrived there. In their words, they are totally content thinking Helen made it out alive, changed her name and simply does not wish to be contacted.
As her family,....it is her family's decision as to rather or not she is listed as a missing person. Unless she is listed in a MP data base, no DNA....no dental...no way to compare her with anybody.

The difference in your example is that you are a family member of your cousin. So far, we have not been able to convince any of Helen's family members to list her as missing.

Helen and her siblings were raised in a very abusive household. They do not wish to raise terrible memories. That is the reason Helen and her brother ran away together. WE have built a relationship with them and they are beginning to trust us, somewhat.


I am going to refer to Carl on this answer. My understanding is in order to consider a person, they have to be listed in one of the MP databases, or at the very least have a family member who acknowledges that person is indeed missing. At the current time we have neither.

Roselvr and I are still communicating with Helen's family. We are hoping that with time and patience they may change their minds and be willing to have her listed as missing. Doing so, or not doing so is their right, and theirs alone.

As a person that has a sister missing, I completely disagree with this statement. (there is no reason for a person to be missing, with family members alive and NOT be listed to be considered in a UP investigation.) My sister is ours, her photo's, her information, her memory. Everything about her belongs to us, her remaining siblings. ( Our parents are also deceased) Nobody has the right to take any part of her from us without our permission. No matter what their intentions, or how well meaning they are!!! In my sisters case we have her listed in all the data bases, That is our decision, and ours alone.No outsider has the right to step in and make that choice for us.

Lastly, I did not once say Helen could not be considered in any UP case, I stated a simple fact......until she is reported/listed as missing in one of the databases....until her family agrees to give DNA samples or her dental records.....or even better, both....there is no way to compare her with anybody.

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Unfortunately there are some instances where it can't be left to the family to decide whether to report missing. Some people kill their relatives and get away with it because they cover up the disappearance of the person and don't file a missing persons report.

Obviously this doesn't apply in your family, and I am sure that it doesn't in Helen's either. However, I think lots of our UIDs (especially the youngsters) were victims of their own family.

There needs to be some way to get people listed, even if the family won't make the report.

Still_Seek_Answers said:

Helen's parents are deceased. Roselvr and I tracked down her siblings. They were told by a cousin that Helen made it safely to the place she was heading for when she ran away. They then told us what name she began using once she arrived there. In their words, they are totally content thinking Helen made it out alive, changed her name and simply does not wish to be contacted.
As her family,....it is her family's decision as to rather or not she is listed as a missing person. Unless she is listed in a MP data base, no DNA....no dental...no way to compare her with anybody.

The difference in your example is that you are a family member of your cousin. So far, we have not been able to convince any of Helen's family members to list her as missing.

Helen and her siblings were raised in a very abusive household. They do not wish to raise terrible memories. That is the reason Helen and her brother ran away together. WE have built a relationship with them and they are beginning to trust us, somewhat.


I am going to refer to Carl on this answer. My understanding is in order to consider a person, they have to be listed in one of the MP databases, or at the very least have a family member who acknowledges that person is indeed missing. At the current time we have neither.

Roselvr and I are still communicating with Helen's family. We are hoping that with time and patience they may change their minds and be willing to have her listed as missing. Doing so, or not doing so is their right, and theirs alone.

As a person that has a sister missing, I completely disagree with this statement. (there is no reason for a person to be missing, with family members alive and NOT be listed to be considered in a UP investigation.) My sister is ours, her photo's, her information, her memory. Everything about her belongs to us, her remaining siblings. ( Our parents are also deceased) Nobody has the right to take any part of her from us without our permission. No matter what their intentions, or how well meaning they are!!! In my sisters case we have her listed in all the data bases, That is our decision, and ours alone.No outsider has the right to step in and make that choice for us.

Lastly, I did not once say Helen could not be considered in any UP case, I stated a simple fact......until she is reported/listed as missing in one of the databases....until her family agrees to give DNA samples or her dental records.....or even better, both....there is no way to compare her with anybody.

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Thank you. I was a bit confused as to why she is not reported as a missing person since someone claiming to be her brother has inquiries all over the Internet asking for help locating her. Strange..

I opted out of listing with Namus. My cousin is listed with the agency and her case is being investigated. Namus is not an investigative agency. They are an orginazition building a DNA data base. Once a case is listed with them, all rights are given up to that case and the LE agency does no further investigation. It becomes a matter of waiting on a "hit" and we all have seen at least one important element to each case that is totally incorrect or it is interpreted incorrectly. The data base won't hit on errors and no oone seems to know whose responsibility it is to correct the information going into the data base.

I think there are more people missing than presented in statistics because family has not reported them missing.

I did not mean to assume anything about your case and I am sorry for your situation. I meant no insult or judgement. I am simply coming from a background of law enforcement and have seen far too many cases where family just reports whatever and it is accepted.

I do understand the system.

My cousin was and adult. She "belonged" to her husband, meaning as his wife his decisions were considered over that of her parents or siblings. However, there was a large amount of blood in and around the scene of her disappearance and other clues that did not take a professional to conclude the husband's "wish for privacy at this time" (his words) was not to be considered. She was not reported as missing but as "abandoning" husband and chlld. Money can buy a lot, including the souls of the corrupt.

You are correct. All cases are different and require a different approach. I sincerely hope there is resolution to yours very soon. Apology for any miscommunication.

Keep up the good work!

shadowdancer said:

Unfortunately there are some instances where it can't be left to the family to decide whether to report missing. Some people kill their relatives and get away with it because they cover up the disappearance of the person and don't file a missing persons report.

Obviously this doesn't apply in your family, and I am sure that it doesn't in Helen's either. However, I think lots of our UIDs (especially the youngsters) were victims of their own family.

There needs to be some way to get people listed, even if the family won't make the report.

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The requests you see for information about Helen that were made a few years ago, were indeed made by one of Helen's brothers. Her younger brother to be exact. he made those inquiries in hopes of reaching adult Helen. He was the same one who ran off with her that night. He is married to someone in LE who has tried repeatedly to get the family to report her missing. As of now, they are just not ready. I do not understand why, my opinion is knowing is better than wondering.

In the case of a missing spouse, I feel blood relatives should certainly be able to report them missing. I have Helen's info all entered into NAMUS, and am just waiting on them to report her missing.

With the stories in the news today, I think anybody should be able to report any child they notice who is just suddenly gone.

I am sorry if I came across short, frustration and lack of sleep do that to me. Roselvr and I do plan on continuing communication with the family in hopes of getting her listed. I think her family is just afraid. They would rather pretend all is well and she is living under a different name somewhere.....than to deal with the fact that she may be a jane doe somewhere.

Again, sorry if I seemed short.

I did not take it personally. Not a problem. The search can be very frustrating. There are some people who would rather not know. Once their loved one is ID, then we have taken away their hope. For many, that is all they have.
All the best

Still_Seek_Answers said:

The requests you see for information about Helen that were made a few years ago, were indeed made by one of Helen's brothers. Her younger brother to be exact. he made those inquiries in hopes of reaching adult Helen. He was the same one who ran off with her that night. He is married to someone in LE who has tried repeatedly to get the family to report her missing. As of now, they are just not ready.

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BBM. - I'm confused? If he is Helen's younger brother why can't he file the missing persons report???

Wanting2Help said:

BBM. - I'm confused? If he is Helen's younger brother why can't he file the missing persons report???

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He could file a missing persons report. He does not want to. He does not believe she is missing in the sense that a missing persons report involves. He believes she ran away from home, made it safely to another place, changed her name and does not wish to be contacted. That information was given to him by a cousin who often helped the children out.

Still_Seek_Answers said:

He could file a missing persons report. He does not want to. He does not believe she is missing in the sense that a missing persons report involves. He believes she ran away from home, made it safely to another place, changed her name and does not wish to be contacted. That information was given to him by a cousin who often helped the children out.

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What I got from speaking to them was that yes he was posting looking for her; then a series of events happened to where someone said she had made it then changed her name. He & his wife have since been trying to uncover if it's true & until they know either way; I think they're just going to hang low

Yvonne Reglar and Denise Sheehy are both now on the rule out list for Cali. Roselvr and I have included Cali on our FB page, and we have been sharing her image and story in the many MP groups we are in. We share several of the girls from here, Her story seems to really grab at people's hearts so she is getting lots of shares all over. Hopefully somebody will recognize her. We have our fingers crossed.