NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #18

[shefner]

Responding to the question of the difference between "religious" and "devout..." Many people who claim to be religious or "Christian" do not attend church regularly or have any association with Sunday School classes, Bible Study groups, Missions groups, or church related teams. Those who are "devout" are closely linked to groups within the local church and attend church regularly.

I cannot personally recall anyone who has been an active member of the local church who has committed suicide (that is not to say it hasn't happened...and by "local church" I mean any church within the community of residence). However, there have been several suicides (all male) among those who might hold a church membership but are not actively attending church or involved in other church activities. We have about 1,200-1,300 members in our current church but not all of those attend services regularly (which I would define as 2-3 times monthly).

As I said, I cannot speak to LDS because I don't have experience there. I just feel that suicide is unlikely in this case. Of course, I have been wrong before and will be again. But we do have the video of Steven purposefully walking towards something or someone, at a very specific time of day (appointment?). Maybe my hope that he walked away has effected my instincts.

 

[shefner]

Laytonian - just want to say, so sorry for the loss of your FIL. May he rest in peace.

My condolences to your family, Laytonian....

 

[SugarJames]

Responding to the question of the difference between "religious" and "devout..." Many people who claim to be religious or "Christian" do not attend church regularly or have any association with Sunday School classes, Bible Study groups, Missions groups, or church related teams. Those who are "devout" are closely linked to groups within the local church and attend church regularly.

I cannot personally recall anyone who has been an active member of the local church who has committed suicide (that is not to say it hasn't happened...and by "local church" I mean any church within the community of residence). However, there have been several suicides (all male) among those who might hold a church membership but are not actively attending church or involved in other church activities. We have about 1,200-1,300 members in our current church but not all of those attend services regularly (which I would define as 2-3 times monthly).

As I said, I cannot speak to LDS because I don't have experience there. I just feel that suicide is unlikely in this case. Of course, I have been wrong before and will be again. But we do have the video of Steven purposefully walking towards something or someone, at a very specific time of day (appointment?). Maybe my hope that he walked away has effected my instincts.

I have had many contacts with sucidal persons in the last 20 years...most of them men who were dealing with the horrible things that they had done or were done to them. Most didnt want to leave a ****ty life...they just wanted to find someway to cope with it. Those that talked or attempted were easy to deal with..you knew out in the open what they wanted. The ones that didnt talk, the ones we never saw...are the ones who need help the most, that dont mean they are dead...just that they had to find some other way to find what they needed.

 

[guitar3]

From the information given in this article it seems the person in question (remains found) would have to had hiked to the area where found. I guess in time we will find more information.

http://dlvr.it/8Q6Dg


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[laytonian]

From the information given in this article it seems the person in question (remains found) would have to had hiked to the area where found. I guess in time we will find more information.

http://dlvr.it/8Q6Dg

Thanks! Good to see you here!

I was wondering if it was possible to enter that area from another route.

As far as I know, there's no one missing from Las Vegas "who went hiking and didn't return".

I wish we knew more about the t-shirt that the bones were "wrapped in". To me, that indicates animal activity and a dragging of the remains around a large area.

 

[laytonian]

Responding to the question of the difference between "religious" and "devout..." Many people who claim to be religious or "Christian" do not attend church regularly or have any association with Sunday School classes, Bible Study groups, Missions groups, or church related teams. Those who are "devout" are closely linked to groups within the local church and attend church regularly.

I cannot personally recall anyone who has been an active member of the local church who has committed suicide (that is not to say it hasn't happened...and by "local church" I mean any church within the community of residence). However, there have been several suicides (all male) among those who might hold a church membership but are not actively attending church or involved in other church activities. We have about 1,200-1,300 members in our current church but not all of those attend services regularly (which I would define as 2-3 times monthly).

As I said, I cannot speak to LDS because I don't have experience there. I just feel that suicide is unlikely in this case. Of course, I have been wrong before and will be again. But we do have the video of Steven purposefully walking towards something or someone, at a very specific time of day (appointment?). Maybe my hope that he walked away has effected my instincts.

I understand what you're saying, but I do know cases where "devout" have committed suicide.

Two young men in my graduation class, committed suicide just a few years after graduation. Both had attended LDS seminary and had been on missions for that church. At the time of their deaths, neither was married or engaged to be.

The young neighbor who committed suicide, hung himself in his basement. We knew that, because our back yard touches theirs, and we saw the entire aftermath play out. His sister told us what had happened, when we asked what the emergency was. There was never any acknowledgement by his family, in an obituary, at his church or among the LDS neighbors, why he had died. When I talked to an LDS neighbor a few weeks later, and expressed my shock about the events, they told me that it was untrue and that no one should talk like that.

There are also cases where the person is defined as devout by the family, but due to one or more issues, has stopped participating in church activities due to the pressures put on them by the religion and family members.

Case in point, Colt David Hansen.

Suicide is complicated, and shameful to many people. There's seldom just one reason.

 

[carbuff]

You just don't know what's in another person's heart or head. It's true that people with better social structures (not just organized religion) commit suicide less often, but even then, it happens, and the reasons are often unfathomable.

One of the elders in the church I grew up in (Lutheran) killed himself when I was in high school. He was a deeply spiritual man, wonderfully compassionate to all the kids in the youth group, always ready to lend a hand (or a few dollars) to anybody who needed it. We would have said he was a pillar of strength.

One Sunday he took communion at the early service, taught a Sunday school class about God's compassion and forgiveness, ushered at the late service -- and then went home and put a shotgun in his mouth. Nobody knows why. His son said he'd been brooding over something that had happened in the Pacific in WWII, but he hadn't been noticeably depressed.

And then there was the teenage girl in my son's school who had just found out she was pregnant. She was an apparently devout Catholic girl -- hung herself, left a note saying she had more faith in God's mercy than in her father's.

 

[laytonian]

Aha. So you don't have to climb UP to the spot where the bones were found; you can fall into that canyon from the trails above.

8newsnow.com: "Remains retrieved from Red Rock".

Snippets:

"Metro officers scaled hundreds of feet down a canyon wall Friday to retrieve more of the skeletal remains found near Red Rock Conservation Area ..... Everybody out here hikes usually on the mountain bike trails and the horse trails. If you get off the trails without a compass and knowing where you're going, you'd be in trouble," said Don Beach who often hikes the area.

and

"Police found parts of a spine, skull, ribs, and a variety of other bones along with some cloth. "What appears to be the clothes the person was wearing. The bones ended up being in the shirt and pants on their own," said Officer Crandall."

 

[Fairy1]

Aha. So you don't have to climb UP to the spot where the bones were found; you can fall into that canyon from the trails above.

8newsnow.com: "Remains retrieved from Red Rock".

Snippets:

"Metro officers scaled hundreds of feet down a canyon wall Friday to retrieve more of the skeletal remains found near Red Rock Conservation Area ..... Everybody out here hikes usually on the mountain bike trails and the horse trails. If you get off the trails without a compass and knowing where you're going, you'd be in trouble," said Don Beach who often hikes the area.

and

"Police found parts of a spine, skull, ribs, and a variety of other bones along with some cloth. "What appears to be the clothes the person was wearing. The bones ended up being in the shirt and pants on their own," said Officer Crandall."

It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds. I don't believe there are any hikers currently unaccounted for up there.

 

[laytonian]

It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds. I don't believe there are any hikers currently unaccounted for up there.

I can't find any known missing hikers, either.

I've been searching for missing people that we missed on our Similar Cases page....and I'm not seeing any.

To be on a horse-bike-walking trail at that elevation, would require a certain level of fitness.

So far, my most likely candidates are Matt Brenton and Trevor Morse. They were the muscular type. I can't rule out Steven, but his car was found so darned far away -- and the cell phone pings go in the other direction.

 

[Fairy1]

I can't find any known missing hikers, either.

I've been searching for missing people that we missed on our Similar Cases page....and I'm not seeing any.

To be on a horse-bike-walking trail at that elevation, would require a certain level of fitness.

So far, my most likely candidates are Matt Brenton and Trevor Morse. They were the muscular type. I can't rule out Steven, but his car was found so darned far away -- and the cell phone pings go in the other direction.

I agree. I'm leaning toward Trevor.

Can't find any updates on the body found in the burning car at I-15 & Sloan or on the jawbone at Lake Mead. That's just irritating!

 

[carbuff]

I can't find any known missing hikers, either.

I've been searching for missing people that we missed on our Similar Cases page....and I'm not seeing any.

To be on a horse-bike-walking trail at that elevation, would require a certain level of fitness.

So far, my most likely candidates are Matt Brenton and Trevor Morse. They were the muscular type. I can't rule out Steven, but his car was found so darned far away -- and the cell phone pings go in the other direction.

I thought I remembered somebody, but it seems to be a hiker missing in Red Rocks AZ, not Las Vegas.

It'll probably turn out to be somebody who wasn't reported missing here because nobody knew that's where he was hiking.

 

[Fairy1]

I thought I remembered somebody, but it seems to be a hiker missing in Red Rocks AZ, not Las Vegas.

It'll probably turn out to be somebody who wasn't reported missing here because nobody knew that's where he was hiking.

If that's the case, it will make me so sad, for so many reasons.

 

[shefner]

I hope that in my discussions about religion and suicide, I am not giving the impression that I believe religious people don't commit suicide. I know that they do. Sometimes it is difficult to predict what another person is going through and how they will respond to stress.

I know of several families that have experienced the suicide of a father or child. It is so painful for them to accept or to talk about. Some family members worry about whether their loved one will go to heaven because some faiths teach that those who commit suicide have murdered themselves and will spend eternity in hell. I certainly do not feel this way at all. How sad that some families have to endure a dual suffering...a loved one who has ended his own life and a church that condemns them. Its heartbreaking.

 

[Fairy1]

I hope that in my discussions about religion and suicide, I am not giving the impression that I believe religious people don't commit suicide. I know that they do. Sometimes it is difficult to predict what another person is going through and how they will respond to stress.

I know of several families that have experienced the suicide of a father or child. It is so painful for them to accept or to talk about. Some family members worry about whether their loved one will go to heaven because some faiths teach that those who commit suicide have murdered themselves and will spend eternity in hell. I certainly do not feel this way at all. How sad that some families have to endure a dual suffering...a loved one who has ended his own life and a church that condemns them. Its heartbreaking.

No worries, shefner. We know that Steven's religion was a big part of his life and that element can't be overlooked.

 

[laytonian]

I hope that in my discussions about religion and suicide, I am not giving the impression that I believe religious people don't commit suicide. I know that they do. Sometimes it is difficult to predict what another person is going through and how they will respond to stress.

I know of several families that have experienced the suicide of a father or child. It is so painful for them to accept or to talk about. Some family members worry about whether their loved one will go to heaven because some faiths teach that those who commit suicide have murdered themselves and will spend eternity in hell. I certainly do not feel this way at all. How sad that some families have to endure a dual suffering...a loved one who has ended his own life and a church that condemns them. Its heartbreaking.

How true. We've gone there, often, in this case ... and have deep, philosophical discussions.

There's a viewpoint here, for every viewpoint possible.

 

[laytonian]

I thought I remembered somebody, but it seems to be a hiker missing in Red Rocks AZ, not Las Vegas.

It'll probably turn out to be somebody who wasn't reported missing here because nobody knew that's where he was hiking.

Here's an odd one. "Hiking cross-country to help cancer research"....goes missing after Flagstaff AZ ....and is finally found offcourse in Las Vegas.

There's no mention of him after that "detour", but his website's still trying to collect money. :furious:

 

[Fairy1]

I've only ever really known one person who committed suicide. He had a very Catholic upbringing, but I wouldn't say he was "devout." In any case, his faith led him to have two children out of wedlock with a married woman, but didn't stop him from purposely overdosing after he brought those babies into the world. I never really understood any of that. But then, I wasn't in his head. He was one of the most brilliant people I've ever known, but there was definitely a dark side to him.

 

[laytonian]

KTNV.com is reporting that it's now believed likely that the remains belong to a tourist, rather than a valley resident.

"In addition to the skeletal remains, clothing and hiking gear were found."

(If it's a male, I'd think that a wallet would have been located, also.)

 

[Fairy1]

Here's an odd one. "Hiking cross-country to help cancer research"....goes missing after Flagstaff AZ ....and is finally found offcourse in Las Vegas.

There's no mention of him after that "detour", but his website's still trying to collect money. :furious:

Hmmmmm. That certainly is QUITE the "detour." Perhaps they're attempting to collect money for the gambling debt he ran up in Vegas when he went "off-course."