OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #3 *Arrests*

[kccorona]

What gets me is they attempted this in February - but evidently, no one came to their senses and had second thoughts about participating in a murder. Between the first attempt in February and the actual murder, no one reflected on what it was they were actually attempting? No one thought, "Hey! Wait a minute! I don't know what got into me, but I'm OUT now. Thank God we weren't successful!"
It's like the first failed attempt just emboldened everyone to try again.
It's all so strange.

I fully believe they were fueled by this "mission" to "protect the children" at all costs. Nothing was going to stand in their way, and anything that did, or that delayed their ultimate goal (i.e. VB not leaving her home during the first attempt in February), was "just" an obstacle to overcome together, possibly even strengthening their resolve to accomplish what they believed to be the most important task.
Based on what we've seen in past actions carried out by anti-government groups, the group-think mentality can really take over and drive unlawful and dangerous acts... to the point where previously held (and conventional) "morals" or ideas about right vs wrong/good vs evil have no influence in their decision making.

All my own opinion.

 

[ClearAhead]

Actually I thought that if the 'preferred" supervisor was not available that TA was to advise VB and then VB was to arrange and pay for one of the remaining 3 supervisors on the list. There were various notification timeframes in the document to provide for advance notice and planning etc.

It was imo an odd arrangement as usually I've seen the cost associated with supervisors be split between the parties. Here iirc TA was responsible for paying the 'preferred' supervisor and VB was responsible for paying in the event that the other 3 supervisors might be used.

MOO

Yes you are right, my confusion of initials. Because TA’s supervisor wouldn’t be there, the responsibility of arranging supervision became VBs. This is why TA’s diabolical plotting might’ve suggested to VB that she could come alone. Possibly VB already had all the reasons in the world not to trust her, to the point of JK carrying?

 

[browneyes]

I don't believe VB reported this to LE.

Did she even know what they were trying to do that day?

I don’t think she knew, but now LE knows. That’s what matters, imo. I doubt she ever thought she would be murdered because of the children.

 

[doublestop]

Is the man pictured Veronica's current fiancée?

yes

 

[windrower]

I'd really like to know what their plan was to accomplish that. I know some people have dropped large rocks off overpasses on oncoming cars, but a ranching anvil weighs around 70 pounds. Lacking an overpass to drop it from, what was their plan? To physically throw it through her car's front window? That would be quite the physical feat!

Sounds like plan was for the anvil to “accidentally” fall off a truck (as anvils so often do), and then float through the air (as anvils so often do) until it crashed through Veronica’s windshield.

Yeppers, nothing wrong with that plan.

 

[browneyes]

What gets me is they attempted this in February - but evidently, no one came to their senses and had second thoughts about participating in a murder. Between the first attempt in February and the actual murder, no one reflected on what it was they were actually attempting? No one thought, "Hey! Wait a minute! I don't know what got into me, but I'm OUT now. Thank God we weren't successful!"
It's like the first failed attempt just emboldened everyone to try again.
It's all so strange.

Sadly, murderers don’t care. They want to punish their victim. It happens so often that Dateline is on season 32. Several cases showed the killer had to try multiple times to complete the deed. IMO, this was less about the kids and more that grandma was going to win at any cost.

 

[SoBu]

We may never know but no doubt VB smelled a rat. Felt there was a set up -- that if she didn't go, TA would use it against her. If she did go, she didn't have a supervisor (the regular one). Could she have arranged for JK to accompany her, to protect herself from whatever game TA was trying to play?

Who would've thunk the play was vicious murder?

The terror they must have felt once they realized what was happening.

Awful.

Seems likely VB lived in fear of TA and heartbreak over the limits and drama around seeing her kids for years. Between TA’s personality and $, VB was fighting an overwhelming, scary, constant battle. I believe VB fully understood TA was out to eliminate her, but underestimated TA’s willingness to take an innocent person along with her.
JMO

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

My theories are one or both: 1. Did not expect anyone else to come find the victim's vehicle as quickly as they did so there was not time to move and dispose of it 2. One of the victims seems to have had a firearm. Whether they managed to use it is not known but it's possible that the perpetrators were not expecting that and things went sideways because of that.

Then there is that 5th person named in the warrant as being involved but not arrested. Maybe this person was shot by one of the victims?

Good ones here! And I concur. And compounded by something unexpected occurring at the altered site where the victims appear to have been confronted. Resulting in a hasty departure of the assailants and having left VB vehicle to be found.

It will be interesting to see whose blood was located at the scene supposedly on the ground I believe? And whether the blood found at the scene was from more than one individual. As well as DNA inside the vehicle too. (Can’t recall whether TA also purchased gloves etc.) MOO

 

[doublestop]

Sounds like plan was for the anvil to “accidentally” fall off a truck (as anvils so often do), and then float through the air (as anvils so often do) until it crashed through Veronica’s windshield.

Yeppers, nothing wrong with that plan.

I keep wondering (aside from everything else) what made them think Veronica would possibly drive close enough behind them for this to work (even if it made sense in the first place).

 

[Herat]

I fully believe they were fueled by this "mission" to "protect the children" at all costs. Nothing was going to stand in their way, and anything that did, or that delayed their ultimate goal (i.e. VB not leaving her home during the first attempt in February), was "just" an obstacle to overcome together, possibly even strengthening their resolve to accomplish what they believed to be the most important task.
Based on what we've seen in past unlawful actions carried out by anti-government groups, the group-think mentality can really take over and drive unlawful and dangerous acts... to the point where previously held (and conventional) "morals" or ideas about right vs wrong/good vs evil have no influence in their decision making.

All my own opinion.

Someone upthread was linking the anti-government quasi-religious groups like God's Misfits to the persistent and unfounded allegations of sexual abuse and overreaching CPS actions in communities. CPS, especially being viewed as an overreaching governmental entity. The allegations of SA by various people being paramount in the rallying cry to attract members ( something about a pizza parlor basement in DC, for example)

I believe TA had raised this issue with VB and was able to use this as a focus for God's Misfits Group ( GMG) to use for her own benefit to slander and abuse VB and to be able to keep the children that she was not legally entitled to. She has never been designated as the custodial parent of these children, AFAIK, and it appears she would still not be custodial parent once WR was released from rehab.

I expect to hear some of this coming out in the trial.

 

[LNL]

yes

Thank you. They look very happy.

 

[Herat]

I keep wondering (aside from everything else) what made them think Veronica would possibly drive close enough behind them for this to work (even if it made sense in the first place).

My guess is that they would stop short and back into her while dislodging the anvil from it's position with a large rope.

 

[Synergizer Bunny]

I'm sure that this has been discussed; however, I can't find it. I'm confused. Have these women's bodies been found? I have read from several different sources that they have been found...Can someone confirm for me? TIA.

Kansas women killings: Court documents detail alleged murder-kidnapping motive

In the court documents, investigators state they discovered one of the moms was in a "problematic custody battle" with one of the suspect's sons.

abc11.com

JMO.

 

[kccorona]

1. Did not expect anyone else to come find the victim's vehicle as quickly as they did so there was not time to move and dispose of it

I agree, and would add to this that in their "planning", TA and gang maybe did not anticipate significant evidence of foul play being left behind at the car. I wonder if this was the thinking behind the use of stun guns, as opposed to other weapons that would potentially evidence (bullets/casings, gunpowder residue, and/or blood) at the scene of the abduction.

 

[legomonster]

It's clever of TA to use the Twombley's vehicles instead of hers or TC's. She was going to put them in the most compromising position, rather than herself or TC.

Honestly, would love to see TA's face when they all realized that the brave Twombley daughter was talking to police. They never considered this outcome, and once they realized they couldn't control it like they did with the poor fate of everyone else, it must have ate them alive.

 

[MassGuy]

I'm sure that this has been discussed; however, I can't find it. I'm confused. Have these women's bodies been found? I have read from several different sources that they have been found...Can someone confirm for me? TIA.

Kansas women killings: Court documents detail alleged murder-kidnapping motive

In the court documents, investigators state they discovered one of the moms was in a "problematic custody battle" with one of the suspect's sons.

abc11.com

JMO.

Yes but no. All indications are that the two bodies recovered are theirs (OSBI attached the announcement to a previous arrest announcement), but we are waiting on confirmation/cause and manner of death.

 

[kccorona]

Honestly, would love to see TA's face when they all realized that the brave Twombley daughter was talking to police. They never considered this outcome, and once they realized they couldn't control it like they did with the poor fate of everyone else, it must have ate them alive.

I was struck by how early on this police interview occurred- April 3rd, so only 4 days after the disappearance.
Although- OSBI obtained a warrant for TA's phone on April 1st, so she knew very early on she was likely in trouble.

source

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Beats me. It's a fair question, but for a murder plot several months in the making, it doesn't seem like they spent more than 5 minutes thinking through the details.

Yes! And they (TA, TC, and crew) sure didn’t have a Plan B. (Thank goodness.) Come to think of it……. and as I write this……. I don’t think they had a Plan A either. MOO

 

[YourM0m]

I'd imagine a rancher might buy 1 or 2 for cattle, but 5 does seem a lot. But I am not a rancher with a large herd of big cattle to move.

You wouldn't use a taser-like stun gun on cattle. You would use what is called a hotshot. And you wouldn't purchase that at a gun store.

IMO, TA wouldn't have used that excuse IF the store clerk ever questioned why she needed to purchase five. No one would ever believe it, especially in that part of the country. But I think even being questioned about the purchase is a big if. It's not like asking to buy five ARs or even handgun. I doubt the clerk even cared.

 

[Stunned]

I’m just catching up and after reading the affidavit it is unbelievable how idiotic those 4 are. Internet searches, burner phones, stun gun purchases…to name a few.

I’m more shocked though that the daughter was told everything so nonchalantly like it’s a normal conversation. And asks her to clean the truck?!

The daughter wasn't quite as indoctrinated as they thought.