What do the profilers say?

[Camper]

I take many of the remarks and pearls of wisdom attributed posthumously to JonBenet not only with a pinch of salt, but possibly with some artistic license.

Authors have to sell books and Journalist have to write copy, and newspapers love their stereotypes.

It may be a reflection of the times we live in, but that the media take seriously that JonBenet was engaging in Erotic Asphyxiation activities, yet she is only 6-years old, I find disconcerting!



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What an odd 'make up story about the pain of rose thorns' by an author' I seriously doubt that it was MADE up.

You may be too young to remember or know about Marilyn VanDebur who was Miss America from Colorado. Her father was a pillar of the community, yet was sexually abusing her AND her sister from tot hood. Marilyn only 'CAME out as an adult, did not TELL, until after one failed marriage.

I find your use of the word 'engaging' in erotic etc., to be strange. Small children are intimidated in some way to NOT tell.

Times change, dress styles change, shoe styles change, the world changes. I have been around on this planet for quite some time, and it has only been NEWS about 'choking games' just recently in the public media. NEW games for sexual tantilization have emerged during my lifetime to become PUBLIC news. Prior it was an undercover activity for the most part. WE have NEW participants today.

The media 'currently' is reporting to the masses the problem of 'choking games' with young children, pre teens. So there is always a new crop of younger people who LEARN NEW OLDE stuff.

Those children who were perhaps two or three years old when JonBenet was murdered are now of the age to learn about and participate in 'choking games'.


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[BlueCrab]

I have been around on this planet for quite some time, and it has only been NEWS about 'choking games' just recently in the public media.

The media 'currently' is reporting to the masses the problem of 'choking games' with young children, pre teens.

Camper,

You got that right.

I didn't know about choking games, breath control, and erotic asphyxiation until I read Dr. Cyril Wecht's book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey". Wecht believes JonBenet was strangled to death during an EA session.

I jumped on the internet after reading the book and educated myself about EA and AEA because I'm also convinced that JonBenet was likely the victim of EA. But people still refuse to believe that a six-year-old could have been involved, willingly or unwillingly, in such an activity -- despite the fact that when found JonBenet was in bondage and an EA device was wrapped around her neck.

BlueCrab

 

[Camper]

Camper,

You got that right.

I didn't know about choking games, breath control, and erotic asphyxiation until I read Dr. Cyril Wecht's book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey". Wecht believes JonBenet was strangled to death during an EA session.

I jumped on the internet after reading the book and educated myself about EA and AEA because I'm also convinced that JonBenet was likely the victim of EA. But people still refuse to believe that a six-year-old could have been involved, willingly or unwillingly, in such an activity -- despite the fact that when found JonBenet was in bondage and an EA device was wrapped around her neck.

BlueCrab

Now then the Bigger Question is where did the murderer learn about EA and AEA and WHO bought the rope? Wonder who the inventor of these devices lived, which foreign country did he/she come from? Was there a patent given, can you PURCHASE them? Did you dig up any info about that which I ask? HOW OLDE is this process? Holding ones breath naturally is just fine and you have total control, harumph. Better to be thought a fool and keep silent than to speak up and remove all doubt, I should take my own advice. Hmmm.

PS: Young boys have always liked rope, and things that go boom (firecrackers etc)sticks to poke stuff with, magnifying glass to worry bugs in the summer, BB guns, probably still do. BUT today things are a bit different, new stuff like stun guns, computers etc.

I don't remember ever reading a murder mystery or seeing a 'who done it' movie where a sexual choking device was used, have you?


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[BlueCrab]

I don't remember ever reading a murder mystery or seeing a 'who done it' movie where a sexual choking device was used, have you?

Camper,

An accidental death due to AEA was the main plot of the movie "The Ruling Class" in 1972 starring Peter O'Toole. There were a number of other films and TV shows touching on the subject of death while practicing AEA, but for the most part Hollywood stays away from the topic because of the fear of giving young people enough information to cause them to experiment on their own.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

I don't remember ever reading a murder mystery or seeing a 'who done it' movie where a sexual choking device was used, have you?

Camper,

An accidental death due to AEA was the main plot of the movie "The Ruling Class" in 1972 starring Peter O'Toole. There were a number of other films and TV shows touching on the subject of death while practicing AEA, but for the most part Hollywood stays away from the topic because of the fear of giving young people too much information, causing them to experiment on their own.

BlueCrab

 

[Camper]

Thank you.

Thank you.

Wish Hollywood had put the crimps on movies with open sex between unmarried individuals er the married ones either.

Especially those young folks who have all the physical equipment to make a baby, but no financial life support system to make a better life for their little babies.

I have an enormous collection of movies. Don't think I would take the trouble to find the one you mention. If you hadn't told me I would have continued to think that Hollywood movie makers did not have any moral virtues left.



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[Holdontoyourhat]

Camper,

You got that right.

I didn't know about choking games, breath control, and erotic asphyxiation until I read Dr. Cyril Wecht's book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey". Wecht believes JonBenet was strangled to death during an EA session.

I jumped on the internet after reading the book and educated myself about EA and AEA because I'm also convinced that JonBenet was likely the victim of EA. But people still refuse to believe that a six-year-old could have been involved, willingly or unwillingly, in such an activity -- despite the fact that when found JonBenet was in bondage and an EA device was wrapped around her neck.

BlueCrab

JBR wasn't necessarily found 'in bondage' with 'an EA device' wrapped around her neck.

JBR was found with a ligature tight around her neck. It was tightened enough to cause local hemmorhaging ,which could only have been caused while she was still alive. When combined with the skull fracture, this should provide even skeptics more than enough indication that her attacker was using deadly force against her, and intended to cause her death.

If you really want to know what the perp used the garrote/second ligature for prior to her murder, you'll probably have to find the perp and ask him. IMO it remains a mystery until then, as there is not enough information available to solve that aspect of the crime. IMO it was probably used as it has been used throughout history, as a control and kill weapon.

 

[sissi]

I believe the perp intended to put Jonbenet in a bondage device to torture her, I do not believe it was an EA device. I am not certain if the rope around her arms was attached to the rope around her neck, if so, it would make a case for another type of bondage, one in which the action of the arms in an effort to remove the tightening cord around the neck has the reverse affect of tightening each time efforts are made to remove it. This is a horrible torture in which the victim eventually kills themselves trying to get free . When John Ramsey was interviewed he mentioned cord "up on her arms", nowhere have I read this being addressed.
Torture seems to have been a theme throughout this murder, the insertion of the stick along with stun gun marks suggests this. (IMO)
I read the profilers, but I disagree, I do not think we can dismiss a serial killer. This guy seemed to focus on the kill, imo not likely a person who hasn't murdered or won't murder again.

 

[Camper]

I believe the perp intended to put Jonbenet in a bondage device to torture her, I do not believe it was an EA device. I am not certain if the rope around her arms was attached to the rope around her neck, if so, it would make a case for another type of bondage, one in which the action of the arms in an effort to remove the tightening cord around the neck has the reverse affect of tightening each time efforts are made to remove it. This is a horrible torture in which the victim eventually kills themselves trying to get free . When John Ramsey was interviewed he mentioned cord "up on her arms", nowhere have I read this being addressed.
Torture seems to have been a theme throughout this murder, the insertion of the stick along with stun gun marks suggests this. (IMO)
I read the profilers, but I disagree, I do not think we can dismiss a serial killer. This guy seemed to focus on the kill, imo not likely a person who hasn't murdered or won't murder again.

------------Wellll, he/she has not murdered again and left a ransom note behind, and the victim as well.

Homeland Security might be well advised to keep a guard on hand in all retail outlets that sell this type of rope, to observe WHO buys massive amounts of 'that type of rope'. An MO soon becomes known, when victims are tortured with this type of device and left behind for LE to observe and analyze. Wonder where he gets his paint brushes?

I also suspect that if he/she were a serial killer he/she would have premade the torturing device and brought it with him/her, and took it with him/her when he/she left.


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[sissi]

Do we know he hadn't killed before, or hasn't again?
Could it just be a matter of "linkage blindness"?
A child is weak, Susanah was alone and vulnerable (therefore weak), Savage's daughter (was it her? or another housekeeper??) alcoholic...weak!
The homeless men found beaten..weak?

 

[Camper]

Do we know he hadn't killed before, or hasn't again?
Could it just be a matter of "linkage blindness"?
A child is weak, Susanah was alone and vulnerable (therefore weak), Savage's daughter (was it her? or another housekeeper??) alcoholic...weak!
The homeless men found beaten..weak?

-----I now quote my own post, " An MO soon becomes known, when victims are tortured with this type of device and left behind for LE to observe and analyze. Wonder where he gets his paint brushes?

An MO - Modus Operandi, has been common in crimes of yore. Someone gets perverse pleasure from their crime and how they did it, will repeat it again and again with specific nuances or telltale signs that is specific to their crime, until caught.

So, no dead sea scroll ransom note left before JonBenets crime nor after, none where the body is left behind. Plus no crime that made the media news where they left behind a victim with a freshly made 'device' such as was found around JonBenets tiny neck.

I'm with John Ramsey, when he said, it was an inside job.


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[UKGuy]

-----I now quote my own post, " An MO soon becomes known, when victims are tortured with this type of device and left behind for LE to observe and analyze. Wonder where he gets his paint brushes?

An MO - Modus Operandi, has been common in crimes of yore. Someone gets perverse pleasure from their crime and how they did it, will repeat it again and again with specific nuances or telltale signs that is specific to their crime, until caught.

So, no dead sea scroll ransom note left before JonBenets crime nor after, none where the body is left behind. Plus no crime that made the media news where they left behind a victim with a freshly made 'device' such as was found around JonBenets tiny neck.

I'm with John Ramsey, when he said, it was an inside job.


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Camper,

I find it difficult to disagree with that.



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[Holdontoyourhat]

Bluecrab, I cannot see that the hair is entwined IN the knot. Couldn't it just be entwined over and above the knot and entwined around the stick? I am not arguing with you. I am just asking you are you sure you can tell from the photo that the hair is within the knot?

It could just be entwined over and above, and not necessarily in.

 

[aussiesheila]

Before speculating here I'd suggest getting medical info on what can cause thyroid inflammation. There are probably milllions of people with inflamed thyroids who didn't get it from ligatures round their necks.

I'm not so sure this is true rashomon.

It is completely absurd. EA is something people do of their own free will, and not something which can be forced on anybody. Placing a six-year-old in such a scenario is ridiculous.
And just for the sake of the discussion: if JB had been chronically involved in such stuff, she probably would have had red marks on her neck from a rope all the time.

rashomon, there are other people besides BlueCrab who think that the ligature was not staging but was used for some purpose during sexual abuse. But not all these people agree with BlueCrab on what that purpose was. I do not think it was for EA or AEA as BlueCrab does, I think it was most likely used as a method of control by the pedophiles I think were abusing JonBenet, and it was not meant to be used to kill her. IMO the strangling was probably done accidentally by one of them in complete panic when trying to silence her as she screamed that incredible scream.

I think also that a ligature had been used before. If I am right and on previous occasions when one had been used, and JonBenet had behaved the way she was supposed to, there is no reason to believe that any highly visible marks were ever left.

Pedophiles are very careful and would probably only use this kind of implement during school holidays when a child would not be seen by outsiders who might have noticed any marks, for instance the school nurse.

 

[aussiesheila]

Agreeing. Chronic inflammation doesn't mean her thyroid was subjected to repeated external injury at all. It could mean virus, bacteria, or disease process.

I think if JonBenet had an infection or disease of her thyroid she would have been a very sick little girl indeed.

 

[concernedperson]

I think if JonBenet had an infection or disease of her thyroid she would have been a very sick little girl indeed.

It is like everyone will excuse everything and have a rational for it. This is more simpler to me.

 

[aussiesheila]

rashomon,

In regard to the chronic injuries to the thyroid and the trachea being inflicted without leaving visible injuries on the skin of the neck, please remember that padding is almost always used between the ligature and the neck to prevent such tell-tale signs that EA and/or AEA has been used.

BlueCrab

So why do you think it was not used on the night of her death, BlueCrab?

 

[BlueCrab]

JBR wasn't necessarily found 'in bondage' with 'an EA device' wrapped around her neck.

JBR was found with a ligature tight around her neck. It was tightened enough to cause local hemmorhaging ,which could only have been caused while she was still alive. When combined with the skull fracture, this should provide even skeptics more than enough indication that her attacker was using deadly force against her, and intended to cause her death.

If you really want to know what the perp used the garrote/second ligature for prior to her murder, you'll probably have to find the perp and ask him. IMO it remains a mystery until then, as there is not enough information available to solve that aspect of the crime. IMO it was probably used as it has been used throughout history, as a control and kill weapon.

An unusually-designed ligature around the neck with a stick handle on the end of it, and a ligature tying the hands together at the wrists and positioned over the head, is classic bondage in my language.

BlueCrab

 

[aussiesheila]

One thing that bothers me however, is the hair from JonBenet being entwined in the knot on the wooden handle of the device. It implies the knot was tied in place on the body, thereby suggesting staging.

BlueCrab

Bluecrab, I cannot see that the hair is entwined IN the knot. Couldn't it just be entwined over and above the knot and entwined around the stick? I am not arguing with you. I am just asking you are you sure you can tell from the photo that the hair is within the knot?


EDIT: this was posted soon after BlueCrab's post 369. But I deleted and reposted it so it has gotten out of order

 

[aussiesheila]

It could just be entwined over and above, and not necessarily in.

Thanks, Holdontoyourhat