CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #6

[MsFacetious]

@MsFacetious I can "see" you are catching up (notifications are both awesome and annoying at times haha) I am really curious to hear what your take is on how this trial is going... the time off... the seemingly slow pace... the evidence so far... lol

I will catch up in the morning (6 hours or so from now lol)

I will say good morning to our UK friends that should be joining us soon and will give me something to read with my morning coffee

I can't tell you what I really think because Tricia would ban me so fast the door would hit me on the way out! However, my family has heard it and I even shared it to cheer up a client who was bemoaning how long HIS case is taking!

I'm appalled. Horrified. Disgusted. It's making a mockery of our system, which is far from perfect to begin with. It's completely disrespectful to the JURY, to the MCSTAY'S and also to the defendant. I think I already covered that before.

However, as far as this week goes... I cannot even believe that after a 5 day weekend they STILL couldn't be ready!

So did the defense cross examine for too long Wednesday too? Did they mention Dan too many times? Did they force the state to object too much? Is that why the 2 hour lunch break, hour in court, another break, judge taking a phone call, hour in court, another break and now starting late Thursday? I mean COME ON!! I won't be surprised if court is cancelled Thursday because somebody's sweetheart objects to them being away!

The delays during the STATE'S case can only be blamed on the defense so many times before the state has to be responsible for not preventing it. I can complain several times that the state is failing to turn over timely discovery to my side. However, at some point we have to know that it's going to keep happening and adjust what WE are doing accordingly. When the other side has a pattern you learn to work around it, that's a huge part of strategy. Especially during a long trial because you have plenty of time to do that!

By now the state should have more witnesses than they need waiting at the courthouse. We hate to inconvenience witnesses, yes. However that is only for a couple of DAYS. The jurors are being inconvenienced for half a YEAR. You need to minimize the inconvenience to the jury.

Ok, for arguments sake: CM DOES get them to comply to get into a vehicle. Do you actually think he would get 1/10th of a mile driving away from the home w/o being attacked by JM or SM?

He makes SM or JM drive: Do you think they would literally drive "normal" KNOWING they were headed to their death?

IMO, that makes 0 sense when one's life is on the line, with all due respect.

If my husband is restrained with a broken leg and rib and I'm being forced to drive while the bad guy has my babies... You better believe I'm not going to screw up.

I'd be scared out of my mind but wouldn't intentionally crash because my assumption is my babies wouldn't be in their car seats and he's probably holding a knife to one of them. If my babies weren't in the car, totally different situation.

However I firmly believe that if they did leave the house alive it was with one of the babies lives being threatened. No better way to get two parents to comply than put a knife to their child's neck. It's one reason I've considered the idea that Joey was killed elsewhere. Would be easier for one person to pull it off that way.

I was listening again to McGee's OS, and his very first opening statement in that presentation, really really bothered me...

He said that when Maline brought him onto the defense team, he didnt even know anything about the McStay case. So after reading the police files and reports , this is what jumped out at him:

"This isn’t a case about murders—murders happen every day—this is a case that somebody wanted this family to disappear—and that struck me—who wanted them to disappear and who had to gain from their disappearance…?"

REALLY?
This quadruple murder, where an entire innocent family was bludgeoned to death, was not about 'murder' , because ' murders happen every day'? Seriously? Two tiny boys were slaughtered, alongside their loving mother, but it's not about that, that happens every day....

I found that incredibly dismissive and insulting. It wasn't just about the family disappearing. They could have disappeared in a much less brutal and coldblooded way, if it wasn't also about 'murder.'

Yes, that does sound heartless when looking at it. However, I think I know what he meant.
I think he was saying that if somebody just wanted this family dead, they would have just killed them quickly and left them.

That was not the goal here. They wanted the family to VANISH. So they were killed, then removed, then transported, then buried.

Yes, murders happen every day. People vanishing only to be found buried in the desert, does not happen every day.

Kind of like the difference between a person who "only" rapes and a person who tortures.

Or a person who "only" robs and a person who beats the victim in the process.

See what I'm saying? It's MORE than a "simple" quadruple murder. He certainly should have clarified more.

I have never found I learn anything if everyone in the room agrees with me. When everyone agrees thoughts expressed are just echoes. I like my ideas challenged. No one has to be working for the defense or the DA to have a strong opinion. I only comment on subjects I have researched as fully as I can. I'm here because this case drew me in that deeply. I've been studying the evidence for years. No agenda, other than a wish to discuss the case.

Absolutely agree. I often think outside the box which doesn't make me a lot of friends. But I'm not on anyone's side. I just want justice to be served for all involved. Guilty people in prison, innocent people free.

Sorry. Not in the USA.
The percentage of mom's giving their children popcorn for breakfast is so low, you would be hard pressed to find any Mom doing that unless, they were extremely Poor.
Joey and Summer were NOT extremely poor.

Popcorn isn't cheap. Trust me, I know. I have a father who eats a bag every night. Drives me batty because there are so many healthier, cheaper snacks. My older kids both have braces but my youngest (3.5) often eats popcorn with him.

I have always theorized that the popcorn was a snack while the boys were waiting for breakfast. Hence the eggs and coffee. Of course there are also people who have coffee and breakfast at night as well. It could certainly go either way. No way to know. Then again I've been known to eat pizza with a fork too... so maybe I don't get an opinion on food issues.

It is kinda weird they weren't married, considering they had 3 kids together and what not... I wonder why that was?

I didn't get married until after my 3rd child was born. Never really had any desire to get married but it was important to him. Some people just don't find it a huge deal. It's also possible she didn't want to be legally on the hook for his debts, I wouldn't.

I find it so hypocritical to say that it's suspicious that Chase couldn't remember what he did on what day when we hear 2 officers asking him what he did on the 8th and to help him remember they tell him it's President's day.. a holiday... kids weren't in school. President's day was only 2 days previous and they couldn't remember that? but they expect him to remember every detail.

Yes, this was ridiculous. I mean I know not everyone had an iphone at the time.... but really? Just open ANY calendar and you'll see it right there!

 

[Alisajo]

I don't think the custom account matters. It was basically being used as a job costing module. All checks for the business had to ultimately be recorded in contact since it was the account where the bank account tracking was being done. I hope we see the bank records for which check numbers cleared the various bank accounts. If any 4000 series was cashed, that pretty much means Chase is toast (imo) because he must have been holding old check stock and he made the mistake of practicing at the McStay house before creating checks at his house. Plus there is the check he wrote to himself on the Feb. 2nd. I have not seen the check numbers of the cashed checks so I cannot be sure about anything yet.

I agree, the check numbers from the 2nd Feb will explain alot.

 

[mrjitty]

So we need to see if the checks created in the Custom account were ever recorded in the Contact account, where the balance would be tracked.

It makes no sense that those check amounts would be deleted, if they were not noted or recorded in the main account.

While I am all for discussing theories, currently I attach no seriousness to the idea that Chase was authorised to create these cheques for the following reasons

1. The obvious prima facie conclusion is these cheques are fraudulent - that natural inference holds until disturbed

2. A course of dealing in running the custom account including deleting cheques actually cashed cannot be spoken into existence by defence counsel

3. Such course of dealing must be evidenced at trial - burden is on the defence to raise it as an issue

4. Such course of dealing cannot be evidenced by experts - it must be evidenced by those with direct knowledge e.g Testimony from CM

I feel like we are going down a rabbit hole that the defendant himself will not testify to.

 

[mrjitty]

I can't tell you what I really think because Tricia would ban me so fast the door would hit me on the way out! However, my family has heard it and I even shared it to cheer up a client who was bemoaning how long HIS case is taking!

I'm appalled. Horrified. Disgusted. It's making a mockery of our system, which is far from perfect to begin with. It's completely disrespectful to the JURY, to the MCSTAY'S and also to the defendant. I think I already covered that before.

However, as far as this week goes... I cannot even believe that after a 5 day weekend they STILL couldn't be ready!

So did the defense cross examine for too long Wednesday too? Did they mention Dan too many times? Did they force the state to object too much? Is that why the 2 hour lunch break, hour in court, another break, judge taking a phone call, hour in court, another break and now starting late Thursday? I mean COME ON!! I won't be surprised if court is cancelled Thursday because somebody's sweetheart objects to them being away!

The delays during the STATE'S case can only be blamed on the defense so many times before the state has to be responsible for not preventing it. I can complain several times that the state is failing to turn over timely discovery to my side. However, at some point we have to know that it's going to keep happening and adjust what WE are doing accordingly. When the other side has a pattern you learn to work around it, that's a huge part of strategy. Especially during a long trial because you have plenty of time to do that!

By now the state should have more witnesses than they need waiting at the courthouse. We hate to inconvenience witnesses, yes. However that is only for a couple of DAYS. The jurors are being inconvenienced for half a YEAR. You need to minimize the inconvenience to the jury.

As a kiwi I am staggered by the trial procedure and frankly the Judge has to be held to account for it.

Maybe its different in Cali but in NZ the Judge is master of his Court Room and in control of procedure. He does not let counsel take the mickey.

Of course both sides are taking the proverbial when given so much slack but this reflects on the Judge himself who appears to see nothing wrong with such a slack timetable and such loose discipline.

Yes, that does sound heartless when looking at it. However, I think I know what he meant.
I think he was saying that if somebody just wanted this family dead, they would have just killed them quickly and left them.

That was not the goal here. They wanted the family to VANISH. So they were killed, then removed, then transported, then buried.

Yes, murders happen every day. People vanishing only to be found buried in the desert, does not happen every day.

Kind of like the difference between a person who "only" rapes and a person who tortures.

Or a person who "only" robs and a person who beats the victim in the process.

See what I'm saying? It's MORE than a "simple" quadruple murder. He certainly should have clarified more.

I suspect it was the speech of someone who is too close to the content - this frequently happens with Artisans/Experts

I get what he was trying to do, but ironically he zeroed in on a key prosecution idea - that someone needed the family to be "missing" - which perfectly fits his own client

He needed to make this real somehow. Someone needed them missing in order to .... What?

I also thought he should have spoken directly to his client's innocence at the start - his failure to do so tended to give the impression his client may be guilty but here is some doubt.

It was pretty revealing that McGee attached most importance to the firepower of his own team instead of his client's innocence.

That is what he felt was most important for the jury to know.

But again this is a common failing of experts presenting to lay people.

They brag about themselves.

 

[asyousay]

I am guessing this is why the U.S.A has alternate jurors sitting in on cases as the cases are so ridiculously dragged out.

I have done Jury Service 3 times in the UK and we don’t have that here as far as I am aware.

 

[MsFacetious]

I ASSURE you this is not normal! I have never seen a trial like this.

I have a trial next month. We will work 8-5 everyday. We take 30 minute lunches. Breaks as needed for a witness to collect themselves or something. However we do not simply waste time!

All of our witnesses are subpoenaed because the judge will not tolerate running out of witnesses. That's not acceptable. None of this is acceptable! It's probably because I'm so close to a trial that this is especially annoying to me!

 

[mrjitty]

I ASSURE you this is not normal! I have never seen a trial like this.

I have a trial next month. We will work 8-5 everyday. We take 30 minute lunches. Breaks as needed for a witness to collect themselves or something. However we do not simply waste time!

All of our witnesses are subpoenaed because the judge will not tolerate running out of witnesses. That's not acceptable. None of this is acceptable! It's probably because I'm so close to a trial that this is especially annoying to me!

Yep - this sounds much more normal.

I can't imagine why this case is scheduled for more than 6 weeks

Even the pistorius trial which was massively complicated was nothing like this,

You get thru multiple witnesses per day

 

[minusfour]

As a dentist, I've been making my patients smile all week, whining about the judge taking time off (an already short week), to go to a dentist.
Imagine keeping all those people waiting. Must have been an emergency!

 

[Tortoise]

tweet:

Late start on Thursday. The juror that was in a car accident last week has a doctor's appointment. He currently has a cast on his arm. Jury reports at 11 am PST/2 pm EST, however Judge and attorneys meeting 30 mins earlier to go over some matters.
Cathy Russon (@cathyrusson) | Twitter

(But we know from Cricket that it wasn't a car accident.)

 

[katydid23]

tweet:

Late start on Thursday. The juror that was in a car accident last week has a doctor's appointment. He currently has a cast on his arm. Jury reports at 11 am PST/2 pm EST, however Judge and attorneys meeting 30 mins earlier to go over some matters.
Cathy Russon (@cathyrusson) | Twitter

(But we know from Cricket that it wasn't a car accident.)

Yes, it was a plastic container accident.

 

[Kittybunny]

Wow! What an excellent summation.

Your post had my full attention as I read every single word.

Thank you.

That means a lot coming from one of my most admired posters.

Thank YOU!

 

[mrjitty]

The investigation into these murders goes back years. Yes, LE was WAY behind the curve, what with the they went to Mexico theory, but there have been years of investigation into the various alternative theories of SODDI in this case. We are at trial now. The process, IMHO, is to prove BARD that CM is responsible for this crime, not that no other possibility exists. They already did that - that's why they arrested CM. Although LE made many mistakes early on, I do think SBSD did the best that they could. The process of investigation followed by most reasonably competent LE departments is to follow the evidence to a perpetrator, not the other way around. Through months and years of investigation, I believe they started with a huge funnel of possibilities and collected evidence that showed that Chase was likely their man. Did they eliminate other possibilities? I'd like to think so, and that they narrowed down a list of suspects and possibilities through investigation and elimination (i.e., was DK in Hawaii, no drug cartel would have had motive to kill this family, etc.). I think there is a lot of evidence, circumstantial and perhaps otherwise that we haven't heard yet that proves to me that CM is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The picture that the prosecutor is painting, and in fact, is almost always painted unless there is a direct witness (hardly ever happens IRL), is like a Monet. If I stand back far enough, I get a very clear picture of what it is and who is responsible. All the dots combine together to paint that picture. If I stand with my nose to the painting and try to examine one dot individually - it's just a blob of color, without context, almost meaningless in and of itself. I'll never figure it out or come to any conclusions if I get lost in the minutiae of each individual dot, and neither should the jury. At the end of the day, the juries' job is to step back and look at that picture, and say "Has the prosecution put enough blobs and dots on this canvas that when I step back, I can conclude that this is indeed, a painting of Chase Merritt?" And don't forget that they can apply the brushstrokes of common sense and logic.

I get the need to dissect the dots though... or to try to build a perfect picture from the pixels. We just want to understand and know why they did this and how exactly to the nth degree...but sadly, I don't think we ever will. I said this before and here I am, but I just don't have the patience for this slow-moving tediousness of a trial or going back to Square Zero when in my opinion, the Portrait of Charles Merritt as a Murderer is clear as day.

Top post.

I'd just like to zero in on this great point

The process of investigation followed by most reasonably competent LE departments is to follow the evidence to a perpetrator, not the other way around.

Exactly right. The police often use what is called "theory of the case"

So one develops multiple competing hypotheses.

• DK did it
• CM did it
• Drug related
• Family murder (murder suicide)

What they don't do (and this canard comes up time and again on cases like McCann), is eliminate everyone in a last man standing type of way

Rather, as you investigate suspects and theories, you will discover evidence that will tend to fall one way (because reality was one way)

So you evidence begins to cluster around your perp and not around other theories. It shows you the way.

This is especially relevant as regards DK. e.g you find immediately he has some kind of exculpatory travel documentation. Of course one piece of evidence does not 100% exclude him, but I am sure other stuff was also found. So sooner or later you give up on that because the evidence is all against your theory.

And of course the Police don't 100% exclude a drug cartel, because there is simply no evidence a drug cartel was involved.

The defence want to characterise this as confirmation bias but it is simply logical investigation techniques

 

[asyousay]

tweet:

Late start on Thursday. The juror that was in a car accident last week has a doctor's appointment. He currently has a cast on his arm. Jury reports at 11 am PST/2 pm EST, however Judge and attorneys meeting 30 mins earlier to go over some matters.
Cathy Russon (@cathyrusson) | Twitter

(But we know from Cricket that it wasn't a car accident.)

I am sorry but why could the Juror not of gone Monday, Tuesday or Friday this week?

It’s not like they haven’t had most of the week off.

 

[Niner]

@Tortoise - I believe you are the "keeper" of the check #s - ??

I've put this together - and have some questions on which check #s go with the amounts, if you don't mind my asking?
re check #s

Monday, February 1 continued –
12:24pm – user Joseph McStay added Charles Merritt as a vendor. Per Preliminary hearing – page 104: this transaction did NOT happen from either the McStay’s desktop or laptop. It looks like CM created vendor account ("charlesmerritt" lower case) in Quickbooks using his computer and printed a couple test checks for $2,500 that he never cashed.
12:34pm – a check made out to charles merritt, all lower-case letters, for amount of $2500 – memo line “deposit” per Preliminary hearing – page 104
12:37pm – another check added to charles merritt, for same amount $2500 – memo line “deposit” per Prelim. Hearing – page 104. Check #s 4093 & 4092. (ref: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #4 post #906 by Tortoise.

12:38pm – user printed check written at 12:24pm. Check #s?
12:47pm – user deleted check written at 12:37pm. Check #s?
12:52pm – user deleted check written at 12:34pm. Check #s?

ck 4092 = $2500; ck 4093 = $2500 - both deleted.


Tuesday, February 2
*11:27am – CM - check for zero dollars created, printed, deleted. Per Prelim hearing (page 106) user added check to Charles Merritt in the amount of zero dollars – memo line “deposit, sa. 1001”.
11:28am – user printed the check written at 11:37am.
11:29am – user added check to charles merritt amount of $2495 – memor line “deposit sa, 1001”, check dated 2-2-10 per Prelim hearing page 107 and none of this occurred on McStay’s desktop or laptop. (CM then printed out and CASHED a check for $2,495 to a Union Bank account. It's possible this first check was actually CASHED against Joseph McStay's Union Bank account, but it was not clear. Not sure if CM also had a Union Bank account.)
11:34am – user printed check written at 11:29am – per Prelim hearing (page 108) – check cashed on 2-2-10 at Union Bank by CM.

check # for $2495?


Wednesday, February 3–
CM opens a Bank of America account with $200 check; $100 deposited and another $100 taken as cash; check from EIP consistent with Joseph McStay handwriting - per Prelim hearing page 129-130.

check # for $200?


Thursday, February 4
1pm - Joey called his Union Bank. The same bank where CM had cashed the $2,495 check two days earlier. IMO, this is when JM first found out Chase had cashed the fraudulent check. This also would be around the time of the lunch meeting in Rancho Cucamonga.

1pm – 3pm - per CM received a legitimate $200 handwritten check from JM. CM used that check to open a B of A account.

7:59pm - someone used the McStay Desktop computer to create (@ 7:59pm) and delete (@ 8:05pm) a Quickbooks check for $4,000. This check was never deposited or cashed. The memo line on this check said, Paul Mitchell check dated 2-4-10. Per Prelim hearing page 109 – transaction from McStay’s desktop;

check # for $4000?
Note:
DEVICE 4 -
Index 2 - intuit - 8:03:23 pm (file name is check[1].htm screenshot of webpage showing check made out to chase merritt $4000.
Index 3 - intuit - 7:59:42 (selectprint[1].htm) Print Checks Setup shows check again made to charles merritt $4000.00, check #4093 (showed current balance as $89, 724.50)

Is that correct - I have this from the prelim hearing....

But then we have this - below - ??


Friday, February 5
12:06pm – user added check (#4093) to charles merritt for $4500 – memo line: Paul Mitchell, dated 2-5-10 per Prelim hearing page 111. Per Prelim hearing page 114 – check was cashed on 2-5-10 by Charles at Union bank. (Flurry of checks created, printed, deleted. A $4,500 check was CASHED at Union Bank. Metro Sheet Metal checks were written ($1650 & $250) and later delivered in person to Metro by CM. $2,350 check was printed and deposited in B of A. The checks on this date that were cashed/deposited appeared to have forged Joseph McStay signatures.)
12:12pm – user printed check written at 12:06pm; date changed 2-4-10;
12:19pm – user added metro sheet metal as vendor.
12:21pm – user added check to metro sheet for $1650 (check #4236) – memo line: “Misc. Manufactuer”, check backdated to 2-4-10 per Prelim hearing page 113.
12:25pm – check written to Metro Sheet Metal for $250 (check #4238, backdated to 2-4-10 and printed.
12:29pm – user added check to charles merritt for $6505 – memo line: “Balance SA (1001)”, check backdated to 2-4-10. This check is printed.
12:33pm – another check written to Charles Merritt for $2350, backdated to 2-4-10. This check deposited at Bank of America by CM (page 114 Prelim hearing).
12:38pm – user deleted check written at 12:29pm – per Prelim hearing page 112. ($6505 ck)

Do I have the correct check #s?
check # 4093 = $4500
check # 4236 = $1650
check # 4238 = $250
check # for $6505 ?
check # for $2350?

February 8 –
2:20pm – QuickBooks activity – user added check to Charles Merritt for $6,500 memo line: “saudi arabia final”, check backdated to 2-4-10 per Prelim hearing page 115; check was printed and deleted and deposited into CM’s BofA account on the next day Feb. 9th.
2:44pm – user canceled QuickBooks online subscription.

check # for $6500 ?


Thanks a bunch. I shall put the check #s on my Timeline list.

 

[missy1974]

So we need to see if the checks created in the Custom account were ever recorded in the Contact account, where the balance would be tracked.

It makes no sense that those check amounts would be deleted, if they were not noted or recorded in the main account.

But if what JMarsh has been theorizing... he didn't have access to the other account and if Joey was gone, no one to record them on the other account. The defense is saying hey look... every time he did something, he called Joey right after to tell him.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Someone - sorry don't recall who - last page - they asked what time Joey talked with his father & bank- all the bold below are calls between Joey & Chase.

Thursday, February 4

9:51am to 5:48pm - CM cell phone pinged in Rancho Cucamonga.

9:41am - Summer speaks to her sister in the morning, and makes plans to visit her and her newborn child.

Joey’s calls:
8am – 4pm - Joey makes work calls
8:45am – 9:31am – business call / VM retrieval
9:36am – incoming call from EIP 22 min
9:40am – incoming call from CM 3 min
2/4/2010 Incoming 10:19 AM CM 909-374 = 4 min
2/4/2010 Daytonabch, FL 10:34 AM 386-383 (F) 2 -
2/4/2010 Incoming 10:39 AM PM-father 281-475 4 – Joey to Patrick
2/4/2010 Incoming 10:43 AM EIP 949-274-4674 (A) 2 – EIP to Joey
2/4/2010 Pomona, CA 10:46 AM CM 909-374 = 4 min
2/4/2010 Incoming 11:06 AM EIP 949-274-4674 17 min – EIP to Joey
2/4/2010 Incoming 11:18 AM EIP 949-274-4674 (A) 15 min – EIP to Joey
2/4/2010 Incoming 11:33 AM CM 909-374 = 2 min
2/4/2010 Kingsport, TN 11:38 AM 423-963- 2 -
2/4/2010 Kingsport, TN 11:39 AM 423-963- 1 -
2/4/2010 Vm Retrieval 11:41 AM 123 (G) 1 -
2/4/2010 Incoming 11:43 AM Blocked NBR 6 -
2/4/2010 Incoming 11:46 AM 386-383- (A) 5 -
2/4/2010 Capstr Vly, CA 11:51 AM bank/accntnt 949-492- (A) 2 - Joey calls accountant.
2/4/2010 Pomona, CA 11:53 AM CM 909-374 2min - then Joey calls Chase at 11:53,
2/4/2010 Pomona, CA 11:56 AM CM 909-374 Text Outgoing 1 - followed by a text at 11:56
2/4/2010 Anoka, MN 11:57 AM 651-746- 1 -
2/4/2010 St Paul, MN 11:58 AM 651-261- (A) 2 -

Joey’s calls:

12 noon - 2 calls from Joey to Union Bank
2/4/2010 Daytonabch, FL 12:00 PM 386-383 (A) 2
2/4/2010 1-800 # 12:02 PM fountains 800-622- (A) 4 -
2/4/2010 Incoming 12:04 PM 203-699- (A) 8 -
2/4/2010 Vm Retrieval 12:11 PM 123 (G) 4 -
2/4/2010 Capstr Vly, CA 12:15 PM bank/accntnt 949-492- 7 - Joey speaks with the "bank/accountant" for seven minutes (or leaves VM)

Thank you.

It sure shows something very important was going on to Joey by the flurry of phone calls he made, and to whom.

Since Joey is constantly contacting the defendant or CM contacting him, whatever was going on had to involve CM. We now know what had him so upset.

What Joey uncovered bothered him so much he made a mad dash to meet with the man who was solely involved.

Imo, it shows this is what started it all. Its logical to believe Joey told CM he was OUT for good. No more would he be working as Joey's subcontractor.

Imo, this would throw CM into a tail spin.

CM strikes me as someone who counts his chickens way before they hatch.

Imo, he already had big plans now that he knew Joey's business income would be soaring with much more being made than ever before.

Visions danced in his head of more, and more big $$$$$$$ money to be able to gamble away. More opportunities where he could get Joey to give him more advanced money before finishing the job.

CM thought his cash cow would be endless now.

But none of it was going to include him. It wasn't going to ever happen.

After meeting Joey he knew without a doubt, this time he was out for good.

His potential cash cow had now dried up! It was all over for CM. He knew then he wouldn't be a part of any of it.

So what did he do after learning he was out for good? He seethed with rage, petty resentment, and hatred.

He then was going to make da** sure if he couldn't milk the cash cow any longer, then he was going to make sure Joey McStay, and his family wouldn't either.

So in one swoop when he murdered all four on the fourth he knew also he destroyed Joey's business, and made sure none of the family would ever get to spend one dime from Joey's company ever again.

The business he knew would be soaring to unbelievable new heights were large amounts of monies were going to be made.

If he couldn't be a part of any of it, then he would make sure that no one else would either.

Just like partners who break up, and then one will kill the one who no longer wants to be with them. 'if I can't have you then no one will.'

Imo,this is exactly how CM thought about Joey, and his soon to be, booming business.

Jmo and nothing more.

 

[missy1974]

As a kiwi I am staggered by the trial procedure and frankly the Judge has to be held to account for it.

Didn't know you were a kiwi... knew you were way off of our time, but didn't realize that far

 

[asyousay]

Thank you.

Visions danced in his head of more, and more big $$$$$$$ money to be able to gamble away. More opportunities where he could get Joey to give him more advanced money before finishing the job.

CM thought his cash cow would be endless now.

But none of it was going to include him. It wasn't going to ever happen.

After meeting Joey he knew without a doubt, this time he was out for good.

His potential cash cow had now dried up! It was all over for CM. He knew then he wouldn't be a part of any of it.

Jmo and nothing more.

If this was true though he would never of forged the cheque on the 2nd. He knew when he did that his goose would be cooked, not even Joey would forgive that after everything he had done for Chase.

That’s why this is more than just greed it was personal. Something happened that made Chase think to hell with it all and the Mcstays.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If this was true though he would never of forged the cheque on the 2nd. He knew when he did that his goose would be cooked, not even Joey would forgive that after everything he had done for Chase.

That’s why this is more than just greed it was personal. Something happened that made Chase think to hell with it all and the Mcstays.

I really think until then he thought he could continue to manipulate Joey just like he had done for several years.

He thought he could give Joey some excuse, and he would believe it.

Oh this was very personal no doubt.

He was going to show Joey what happens when Joey shuts him out from being able to be a part of the cash cow.

He had milked the old cow before already for thousands he never repaid. But now there was going to be a new much fatter cash cow flowing with lots money that would give him many more opportunities to con Joey out of even more money.

Imo CM had been able to manipulate Joey for years. He thought Joey would continue to be that same easygoing guy who was all talk, but really wouldnt do anything about it.

Joey even loaned him thousands to pay his huge gambling debts. I don't think one other person would have done that. So he knew Joey was an easy target, and easy to manipulate.

He underestimated Joey's response on the 4th. His manipulation con game of Joey wasn't working like it had for years.

It had worked for several years on Joey. He wouldnt have any reason to believe it wouldnt work now. Just spin another tale like so many times before.

Imo

 

[Longtimenoc]

The only account Chase is ever thought to have accessed is the CUSTOM account. So I don't know what you mean that we are not talking about that account.

Check # 4093 does not show up in any of the court records, cashed or otherwise. So my guess, it was never cashed. My guess is that it is never generated under that check #. Only the 4200 series checks were (I have to look it up but Chase's check # were 4237-4244 I think . This information is in the affidavits for the search warrants.