MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #10

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Elliot_Alderson said:
How does a SUV hit someone solely in their arm hard enough to make them fly 30 feet but there's no bruising on his arm????
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And his arm doesn’t break but the vehicle gets a dent?

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If this is the site of impact, how did JOK manage not to also hit with full force the fire hydrant and as a result break, bruise or scrape one of legs, lower pelvic bones, tailbones or a lower spinal bone? What about the two bushes to the right side and a little back? How does he avoid contact with either one? Is there evidence he came into contact with either one?

Trooper Paul said the vehicle strike happened at 12:35. So why does the CW think KR called JOK 2 minutes at 12:33 before if he was either still in or next to her car?
 
TristanP said:
The comment was a sarcastic, exaggerated (but not by much) version of what Trooper Paul said last week. He said John was hit in the right arm by the taillight, causing it to break, and that caused him to spin around as he flew through the air and landed on his back on the ground, causing the head injury.

Then today when Jackson was questioning him, asking how the broken glass got where he was and not knocked out of his hand when he was hit by a car going 24 mph in reverse, Paul said “I don’t know, I wasn’t there.”

Yep. This is real life and these things were said under oath.
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The trooper can say stupid stuff because he basically knows nothing about the subjects he's opining about on the stand. But I suspect the defense will question the ME's about what Trooper Paul said about John's injuries. They would have to perjure themselves to back up Paul, since I'm sure they know that the "taillight hit John's arm and knocked him backward" theory is garbage. If they don't endorse the theory, then that impeaches the trooper. (Not that I think Paul has any credibility with the jury.)


TristanP said:
So she said cause of death was undetermined, but also said the arm wounds weren’t consistent with dog bites, and other injuries weren’t consistent with a fight? I was really hoping she’d shed some light on the case but I think she won’t add anything at this point.
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We know Proctor and Bukhenik were leaning on the ME to get them a homicide determination. I wonder if to get them off her back, the ME tossed them a few bones by adding some language they asked for. They may have told her that it was an open and shut case, and she put it in there never thinking she'd have to defend it on the stand.
 
TIGER0822 said:
I think compared with what Proctor wrote, the jury will not give any weight to the messages between KR and JO. MOO
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They were devastating messages.. Horrible power dynamics going on there, she was desperate, he held the entire deck...
I was in that place myself once. I know that road. It was a devastating time for me.
All because I was in a place I knew I shouldn't be but fighting against my own instinct. |I'm free now but it certainly left a dent in me.
Coercion, power abuse..
|I don't know now that they could have survived as a couple.

It's a toxic space but it takes two, always.

I feel compassion for her as a result.
 
ch_13 said:
The trooper can say stupid stuff because he basically knows nothing about the subjects he's opining about on the stand. But I suspect the defense will question the ME's about what Trooper Paul said about John's injuries. They would have to perjure themselves to back up Paul, since I'm sure they know that the "taillight hit John's arm and knocked him backward" theory is garbage. If they don't endorse the theory, then that impeaches the trooper. (Not that I think Paul has any credibility with the jury.)



We know Proctor and Bukhenik were leaning on the ME to get them a homicide determination. I wonder if to get them off her back, the ME tossed them a few bones by adding some language they asked for. They may have told her that it was an open and shut case, and she put it in there never thinking she'd have to defend it on the stand.
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Reading the text messages is interesting. Did anyone come away from those with the impression that it wasn’t that serious of a relationship? I had kind of already suspected this purely on the fact that they didn’t live together and weren’t engaged after 2 years.

But when she mentions her medical issues, “physically I’m falling apart,” surely this is something that a serious partner would already know and not need to be told about via text.

Not really sure what point I’m making or which it side it benefits, just an observation. MOO.

Also, when JO mentions something about “it’s been an issue for 8 years” (images were hard to read but I think that’s what it said) was he referring to the kids?
 
How can the prosecution be serious with Trooper Paul’s idea of his reconstruction??? He was “side-swiped” on his arm (that has NO bruise) and he spins, hits his head on the curb, and gets 20-30 feet from the road? This was a bigger *advertiser censored* show than I imagined.

His shoe that was tied on came off (even though it wasn’t at 60 mph), but he kept the cocktail glass in his hand after being “side-swiped” hit it the arm.

The defense tore apart the reversing key cycle too! The key cycle he used was while in Tooper Proctor’s care??

This whole testimony was insane
 
Honestly so far I’m still not completely convinced she didn’t accidentally run him over, if she did it, it was not malicious. The investigation was so awful, so unprofessional, so obviously looking out for “the boy’s club” and their families, if I saw this in a movie I’d say this is unbelievable because it’s so ridiculous. There are so many other events and machinations going on that there is absolutely reasonable doubt hence the FBI investigation, and, as far as we know the FBI providing information to the defense

I wrote earlier I was embarrassed watching trooper Paul being crossed, I’m a professional engineer, he was put in an untenable position, we can speculate if that was on purpose or not.

To finish my rambling, the MSP with their unprofessional actions did a disservice to JOK and his family, I have a kid, I couldn’t imagine them having to go to a relative then this situation happening
 
pavlovsdaughter said:
Reading the text messages is interesting. Did anyone come away from those with the impression that it wasn’t that serious of a relationship? I had kind of already suspected this purely on the fact that they didn’t live together and weren’t engaged after 2 years.
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I think once you're past a certain age, relationships don't necessarily have a set path like they may for many younger folks. Once you're no longer thinking about having kids at some point, then living together and/or marriage may no longer be a relationship goal.

pavlovsdaughter said:
But when she mentions her medical issues, “physically I’m falling apart,” surely this is something that a serious partner would already know and not need to be told about via text.
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I believe you may be taking Karen's statement too literally. Of course John knows about the MS, colitis, brain tumor, etc. But I think she was trying to advocate for herself by telling him that she was unhappy with the way he was treating her, considering her condition.

pavlovsdaughter said:
Also, when JO mentions something about “it’s been an issue for 8 years” (images were hard to read but I think that’s what it said) was he referring to the kids?
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I believe so. I think this was in reference to their fight about her getting Dunkin' Donuts for the niece. I think John was saying that he always has to be the bad guy with the kids.
 
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KSwizzle said:
Honestly so far I’m still not completely convinced she didn’t accidentally run him over, if she did it, it was not malicious.
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snipped.
The problem for me has always been the lack of physical evidence. Accidentally or on purpose, it has to be physically possible. And I have yet to hear a plausible scenario that explains how John's body ended up where it did with those wounds and how the SUV ended up without any damage (except for the taillight).

Maybe a competent reconstructionist could have provided that. But instead we get Trooper Paul.

KSwizzle said:
I wrote earlier I was embarrassed watching trooper Paul being crossed, I’m a professional engineer, he was put in an untenable position, we can speculate if that was on purpose or not.
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I felt a little bad for him at first, but it quickly dissipated. How can a reconstructionist not know that kinematics is a branch of physics. Or not know that acceleration is the rate of change in velocity over time. Or not understand that momentum is conserved? I mean those weren't hard questions that Alan Jackson was lobbing at him. I knew the answers and my last physics class was over 35 years ago.

The fact that this guy is testifying in criminal trials when he doesn't have the slightest idea of what he is talking about should be extremely disturbing. I imagine he's gotten away with saying a lot of stupid, inaccurate stuff when the defendant didn't have a lawyer who could challenge him.

Dunning-Kruger in action.
 
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I've taken time to digest the text messages, even though some of them were very blurry. I think JOK was a good person, perhaps a good cop, but not that great of a boyfriend. It seems to me that they BOTH had a LOT going on in their lives, but KR gave more. She worked 2 jobs, dealt with a plethora of severe health issues, yet still helped him out with his kids. (I know, niece and nephew but same difference.) And if I were her, I'd feel pretty put upon by it all (the whole babysitter with benefits thing.)

I see him telling her he has too much going on in his life to give her more (including a bit of respect) yet in spite of all she has going on, she STILL managed to do everything she could to lighten HIS burdens.

I don't think either of them are bad people, but I don't believe JOK was that great of a partner to her. I see a lot of gaslighting going on. He acts poorly. She gets angry. He gets mad and cold to her because of her reaction. It's easy to say she should have moved on, but she loved him and love is hard, especially when you have invested 2 years into a relationship and have a bond with the kids.

That said, this is who I feel most sorry for. They lost BOTH of their parents at a very young age, now lost their next set of parents as well, as it seems as though KR was a defacto stepmom in many ways. I cannot imagine their angst right now. I hope they are getting lots of love and therapy and can someday, somehow find some peace in their lives.
 
oh yeah, I should have expanded, I could see she did hit him accidentally but my take away so far is she did not, none of the physical evidence lines up with it, my thought/post was even if the physical evidence does not show it, who knows, it’s not outside the realm of possiblilty she did hit him, though very unlikely

Regardless of everything else JOK’s injuries and lack of injuries, and what the CW and trooper Paul said happened makes no sense, and that’s before getting into all the lies, perjury, incredible “experts” etc
 
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