CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #5

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kiwilaura said:
My guess is that she was told in explicit terms “if you ever try to escape we will kill you”.
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I think we all need to brace ourselves because I fear this story is about to get much much worse.
 
This is the most horrifying form of child abuse I've ever heard of. It literally has made me vomit twice. These siblings must have been through so much. Its amazing and shows a strength that is unfathomable, that these siblings have not given up all hope of being free and happy. It may have been especially hard for the older ones to not give up as they may have experienced happier times and knew what they were missing.
I feel the oldest male was the one that learned the others about the outside world eg using phone to dial 911. Just building the courage to get the phone. They must have also needed a charger and give it enough power to dial out.
The oldest also looks slightly heavier in comparison to the others but I think that he was fed more to pass without questions in classes.
Concerning the refeeding. I remember the police feeding them sandwiches and drinks when the were rescued, that must have played havoc on their systems.
The middle of the 3 boys in the Elvis video where SHE has got the fluffier dress on. Its like he is a stick man trying to dance. From that video he looks the most emaciated out of them.
Know one will ever convince me who has seen that, that they didnt notice anything wrong. Its very clear.
A lot have thought must have gone into the dresses the girls have on because they are seen wearing them in 2013 and then again in 2015. We don't know what they were wearing in 2011 because it never shown them on the video.
2013 dresses were worn the 2years later they were worn again but each sibling did not have the dress on they worn the previous time. In 2013 the two youngest have criss crossing of ribbon on the chest. In 2015 its only the youngest who has this type dress on.
What's bugging me is, did they buy more dresses in bigger sizes in 2013 knowing they would need them again in 2 yes. This doesn't make sense why anyone would do that. The dresses on the older girls actually look longer in the 2015 video. Do shops in america stock the same dresses for that long.
I have a feeling they might have been made instead of shop bought.
Another little thing that's niggling is people who generally post family photos to face book like to show a snap shot of the happiest times as a family together. Looking down my Facebook feed at Xmas you see family photos of children near Xmas trees, kids opening presents, visiting Santa clause, things like that. I have not seen one photo of these siblings at ANY Christmas time. I know not all do the Xmas things like trees or presents buts its normally a snap shot of their own traditions. They put all other holiday photos on, why not Xmas. It breaks my heart this does and the trial is going to be pure hell if they don't plea guilty.
I can't see HER doing that she likes the spot light too much.
 
Just wanted to c/p this bit of a news report :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ifornia-perris-children-captive-a8170641.html


Therapists also suggested it is best to keep the siblings together. Jessica Borelli, a clinical psychologist and professor at the University of California, Irvine, said despite what they went through, they may struggle to be away from their parents.

“When we come into this world, our attachment figures are our primary sources of safety and security, no matter how abusive they are,” she said. “That impulse or that draw to be back with the people who are supposed to keep you safe is incredibly strong, and that is what has to be overridden to get out of an abusive situation.”

She felt the 17-year-old girl who escaped could be key in helping the family to recover. “To me, that is a sign she has something inside of her that is really healthy,” she said. “One of the things that happens with really prolonged abuse like this is the instincts about self-protection and the desire to protect oneself are totally disrupted — but she has it. So, I think she might be someone who can help."
 
bleuboy said:
This is the most horrifying form of child abuse I've ever heard of. It literally has made me vomit twice. These siblings must have been through so much. Its amazing and shows a strength that is unfathomable, that these siblings have not given up all hope of being free and happy. It may have been especially hard for the older ones to not give up as they may have experienced happier times and knew what they were missing.
I feel the oldest male was the one that learned the others about the outside world eg using phone to dial 911. Just building the courage to get the phone. They must have also needed a charger and give it enough power to dial out.
The oldest also looks slightly heavier in comparison to the others but I think that he was fed more to pass without questions in classes.
Concerning the refeeding. I remember the police feeding them sandwiches and drinks when the were rescued, that must have played havoc on their systems.
The middle of the 3 boys in the Elvis video where SHE has got the fluffier dress on. Its like he is a stick man trying to dance. From that video he looks the most emaciated out of them.
Know one will ever convince me who has seen that, that they didnt notice anything wrong. Its very clear.
A lot have thought must have gone into the dresses the girls have on because they are seen wearing them in 2013 and then again in 2015. We don't know what they were wearing in 2011 because it never shown them on the video.
2013 dresses were worn the 2years later they were worn again but each sibling did not have the dress on they worn the previous time. In 2013 the two youngest have criss crossing of ribbon on the chest. In 2015 its only the youngest who has this type dress on.
What's bugging me is, did they buy more dresses in bigger sizes in 2013 knowing they would need them again in 2 yes. This doesn't make sense why anyone would do that. The dresses on the older girls actually look longer in the 2015 video. Do shops in america stock the same dresses for that long.
I have a feeling they might have been made instead of shop bought.
Another little thing that's niggling is people who generally post family photos to face book like to show a snap shot of the happiest times as a family together. Looking down my Facebook feed at Xmas you see family photos of children near Xmas trees, kids opening presents, visiting Santa clause, things like that. I have not seen one photo of these siblings at ANY Christmas time. I know not all do the Xmas things like trees or presents buts its normally a snap shot of their own traditions. They put all other holiday photos on, why not Xmas. It breaks my heart this does and the trial is going to be pure hell if they don't plea guilty.
I can't see HER doing that she likes the spot light too much.
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It is interesting that you mention this. One article referenced pictures on their FB page of the family at the beach and visiting Santa. I have not seen them though.
 
Trino said:
I'm not certain it's entirely in their best interest to stay together. Each has physical, mental, and emotional problems, paired with no real education. Each needs the opportunity to interact with people their own age, especially the adult siblings, and I feel the adult siblings need adult role models. I'm not saying they should never see each other - just be given room to develop.
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They also have profound trauma bonds. They survived literal sustained war together. Separating them right now would be absolutely detrimental to their well being. They don't need space. Not now. They do need age appropriate socialization. But seeing as they have lacked any and all of that and have endured pure horror for decades, we cannot assume, nor should we that they are even remotely, developmentally at their actual ages. Bio-psycho-and social. They need safety and trauma informed care. It is going to be a long road to trust ANYONE but each other.

The first thing these survivors asked social workers upon their rescue was:

"Can we stay together?".

Separating them now would be another form of abuse.
 
spiderlady said:
Have any Birth Certificates been located or were all or most of these children born "at home"? It may have been mentioned and I may have missed so apologies if this has been addressed. I mean, it must have been in order to determine ages but I have seen little discussed about it.
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My home-birthed children (Texas) all had legal birth certificates and pretty hand-lettered ones with footprints, etc. suitable for framing. I had a midwife for all of my births.
 
I think the NOT wanting V neck shirts is related to their feelings of vulnerability because of strangling.
 
Corina said:
Two of my own musings amid all this horror:

I have never seen anyone look at their significant other with such an intent and utterly besotted expression as LT manifests in the "wedding";

and DT seems to be overcome with emotion to the point where he can hardly speak, and wipes his eyes - what's that about? -

no answers, really, I think I'm just trying to make sense of the inexplicable.
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Yet they go from that posed movie adoration to complete detachment. The whole thing was so fake, and I'm convinced it was only designed to feed LT's fantasies about her perfect romantic debt free life as some kind of super home maker.
 
This was found at one of the homes they use to live in. I wonder what this drawing is about? :(

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Source: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/images-released-texas-home-captive-siblings-live-52475851
 

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Spice said:
They also have profound trauma bonds. They survived literal sustained war together. Separating them right now would be absolutely detrimental to their well being. They don't need space. Not now. They do need age appropriate socialization. But seeing as they have lacked any and all of that and have endured pure horror for decades, we cannot assume, nor should we that they are even remotely, developmentally at their actual ages. Bio-psycho-and social. They need safety and trauma informed care. It is going to be a long road to trust ANYONE but each other.

The first thing these survivors asked social workers upon their rescue was:

"Can we stay together?".

Separating them now would be another form of abuse.
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Yes but keeping them all together would have logistical challenges. They are currently all special needs children suffering from PTSD, so it's hard to see how they could find a home environment with enough round the clock care to support them. My ideal scenario would be to see them in a few different homes within close proximity so they can grow stronger as individuals without losing their strong bond as siblings who understand each other better than anyone else.
 
Spice said:
They also have profound trauma bonds. They survived literal sustained war together. Separating them right now would be absolutely detrimental to their well being. They don't need space. Not now. They do need age appropriate socialization. But seeing as they have lacked any and all of that and have endured pure horror for decades, we cannot assume, nor should we that they are even remotely, developmentally at their actual ages. Bio-psycho-and social. They need safety and trauma informed care. It is going to be a long road to trust ANYONE but each other.

The first thing these survivors asked social workers upon their rescue was:

"Can we stay together?".

Separating them now would be another form of abuse.
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Honestly, I don't know if socializing with their peer group would be all that great. How could they relate to others their ages? They would have essentially nothing in common. The youngest kids might enjoy some playmates, but I don't know if the teens and olders siblings would benefit. I think they might enjoy friendships with older adults and with their younger siblings, at least in the immediate future. IDK. JMO.
 
Spice said:
It is common for sure. But I really do not get that vibe here. There is obvious psychopathy here with both of them in the PD department. LT gives me possible Intellectual Disability ( In the HIGH range) vibes and definite possible serious mental illness (Bipolar Disorder maybe, lots of impulsiveness there ) with a personality disorder. They can exist at the same time in one person. Borderline..I'm not positive. BPD is more about splitting and raging and then swinging back to idealizing. It stems from the primary caretaker not allowing for proper separation-individuation early in life and then in adolescence. They fear abandonment above all else and perceive it everywhere. Its a serious void of self and of pathology in attachment style.

That being said, forensically, they knew right from wrong. They were calculating. And knew to hide what they were doing .

But I will eat my hat rather than say there is no mental illness here. Regardless of what authorities have said. Hoarding in and of itself is a DSM5 Diagnosis. They also said it way to early, not leaving enough time for a comprehensive mental health eval of both of them. Not for insanity purposes of course. They were NOT insane and should pay for what they did.

I see psychopathy in the PD department , psychopathic personality disorder, or even Antisocial ASD, MOO. There is not enough there for me to assume borderline yet. (Cutting, self harm, splitting etc). BPD generally cut themselves, high suicide attempt rates, the rage swings from being directed at ones self and then to others. All of this rage appears to have been directed at their children. They also have very high interpersonal conflict, chronically. She has been in a "stable" (VOMIT) marriage for 30 something years.

Who knows. We will see. We don't know enough. What we do know is that their behavior is depraved and sadistic, and calculated. They knew what they were doing and knew to hide it, has been going on for many years. They hoard, live in squalor, destroy and abandon house after house, blow through money, and the cycle starts all over again. There are impulse control problems in both. Serious regression in LT. Sexual predation in DT. A lack of compassion, empathy, and insight. They did not appear to care one iota. Its gruesome, grotesque, and defies logic.

Hoarding is also usually born out of trauma. LT appears very regressed. Stuck. I would guess there was trauma in her childhood.

ALL MOO.
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I agree with everything you've said here minus intellectual disability. Curious what leads you to that conclusion. I will also add that BPD is not limited to the raging and not all so the self destructive behaviors. Also any dual diagnoses, such as narcissistic PD which frequently co-occurs, can really influence how the symptom set of BPD manifests. There is also a lot of literature hat suggests that intelligent, strong willed kids who challenge boundaries (LT's personality as a kid) growing up in an environment LT did leads to BPD. Kids like that often consider themselves equal to adults in terms of power dynamics and respond much better to an authoritative ( significant freedom to do as one pleases but within clearly identified limits) vs authoritarian (do as I say no questions asked) environment. Being relegated to that lower power position only fuels their need for interpersonal control. And thus a cycle is born where the child acts out, parent represses, child becomes resentful, and a pattern develops where the child only receives attention when acting out. I don't know if I'm explaining that very well but what I'm getting at is because they never feel in control of anything. in authoritative environments the child is enabled to make decisions for him/herself and if those decisions are outside the established boundaries the child is given an explanation as to why. This allows them to feel in control of things. all of that is true for child development in general, but with certain inborn personality types it can really tip the scales. authoritarian parents (to the degree lt's weee also tend to be very cold, which leads to poor attachment style, further increasing risk of PD).
Where I come from with the borderline is the high need for interpersonal control. My ex sis in law has BPD and she intermittently idealizes my niece and berates her for random things (such as the "playing in the water" punishment here) the next. She is known to lock her in her room for hours while she (ex sis in law) goes about her day and doing what she wants. She only interacts with her when it's convenient or would make her look good in the public eye ( Disneyland, wedding chapel in this case). When she gets in a rage she has been physically abusive as well. And don't worry-- cos has been called numerous times on her. She's tried to kill my bro in law more than once, and the paranoia is out of this world sometimes. She makes my niece tell her how much she loves mommy and how great mommy is. It's disgusting. Somehow tho the state of Texas believes that children are better off with their mothers. Add in the excellent manipulation skills and their pseudo public self, and you have a perfect storm. so my bro in law hasn't get full custody . My niece is intellectually disabled which makes proving this difficult too. Teacher's are afraid of moms possible retribution so are rejecting to get involved. Sorry to write a book.


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Francesca said:
Yes but keeping them all together would have logistical challenges. They are currently all special needs children suffering from PTSD, so it's hard to see how they could find a home environment with enough round the clock care to support them. My ideal scenario would be to see them in a few different homes within close proximity so they can grow stronger as individuals without losing their strong bond as siblings who understand each other better than anyone else.
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All clinicians have already made statements that the children should stay together and not be separated, as did Child Welfare Authorities.

I would be absolutely shocked to hear anything less.

I love the idea of side by side homes. But even that would have to be slowly introduced. This is a very delicate situation. VERY. Trauma experts would never separate them at this stage. Their separation should be born out of their own wishes and self determination.

Right now, they have asked to stay together.
 
kiwi50 said:
I agree re him looking a bit wimpish, I think she definitely wore the pants. Re the lewd advance, it may have been anything she ordered to get herself another baby. I assume he didn’t rape this daughter or it would be more than a lewd advance. Could he have made the siblings have sex together or (trying to put this delicately but can’t think of a way) did an AID from a son to a daughter.
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Ugh horrible thoughts but I've had the same ones.


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Francesca said:
I don't think so - the police made the charges re a child under 14, so I am assuming it was one of the girls under that age. The police and LE have a delicate job drawing information out of these kids and pinning down dates, plus they were on a deadline to press charges so it would make sense that they would go with an immediate charge they could substantiate immediately, such as a 14>yo who could make a statement on the day. I have no doubt that there will be other similar charges from the other girls, but the important thing was to include one such charge on the day.
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Actually it was the 17 year old, in the charging documents it has the first 3 letters of her name listed as the victim next to this charge. Also I think it says it occurred in 2012 or 2013. I'm sure there will be many other similar charges though, no way she was the only victim and it only occurred 1 time.

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Francesca said:
I don't think so - the police made the charges re a child under 14, so I am assuming it was one of the girls under that age. The police and LE have a delicate job drawing information out of these kids and pinning down dates, plus they were on a deadline to press charges so it would make sense that they would go with an immediate charge they could substantiate immediately, such as a 14>yo who could make a statement on the day. I have no doubt that there will be other similar charges from the other girls, but the important thing was to include one such charge on the day.
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I think it *is* that sibling. The lewd act is charged to have happened a few years ago, making her under 14 at the time. And if she is the one who escaped, it would make sens that she reported this thing that others may not be ready to talk about yet if they were subjected to same.
 
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