17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

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The complex has 260 units and hundreds of residents (black, white, hispanic), I can’t imagine GZ being able to recognize all of them and their guests. He couldn’t possibly have known whether Trayvon lived there jmo and I feel very strongly he targeted TM because he was black & fit the description HE & HIS WIFE supplied to police about previous supposed crime there. jmo.

<modsnip>

Okay, in all fairness, this brings up another question. When news of Trayvon's backpack having women's jewelry and a screwdriver came up, I immediately thought of several legitimate reasons for that. I could think of legitimate reasons my own son might have those things. I know LE did not match any of the jewelry to any known stolen jewelry. LE never made an issue of this, it was just noted.

But since it is brought up that this was an entirely different location, and since there is a possibility GZ had "seen" Trayvon there before, it's fair to ask if GZ really did suspect Trayvon specifically of robbing houses there.

Secondly, I do not think that justifies GZ's actions even if Trayvon had fit the description specifically of a person seen breaking into houses. It was still not his job to stalk, confront, or hold anyone he suspected. And he was not EVER saying that Trayvon was in the act of committing an active crime in the moment he called 911, just that he "looked suspicious" and "THEY always get away".

I just want to be fair in considering all possibilities. And I want a true picture of what the deal really was.
 
BEM: I wouldn't expect TM's mother could say the same about Trayvon.

A mother knows her child's voice From the minute you give birth you know your baby's cries over the other babies around them I'm an expert I have 5 kids
this post is
***MOO***
 
The who concluded it was TM because person screaming was young (in his opinion)? I don't buy that for a second. You can't determine an age by voice alone. For instance, I sound very young and when people call they ask to talk to my parents.

From the beginning I recognized that it was a young person screaming. And yes, you can tell in some cases, the approximate age of the voice. I believed and believe it was a young person because you can hear the residual voice cracking in one moment of the vocalization that only young males have.

Trayvon was not done growing. That includes his larynx. In this article it state that the adolescent male voice does not fully settle until the mid-twenties:
http://www.vocalprocess.co.uk/resources/FAQ_Developing_Voice.pdf

I did not know that but I definitely heard the adolescent voice cracking in one of the screams.

Now, about other sounds. I listened to the police call of Zimmerman. When I first heard it, it sounded like either a g or c was placed before "oons". I never heard "punks". The "uh" sound and the "kuh" sound are quite different from the "oo" sound or the "ks" sound.

However, after listening to the CNN enhancement, I actually thought it could be either the racial epithet or "punks". Why? Well, in part because the "oo" sound and the "uh" sound are dependent on regional or ethnic accents, as are all vowel sounds. And hearing the word alone, it is not clear to me whether what I'm hearing is a hard "kuh" or, the sound of "puhnk". Also, the "puh" sound is a softer one and harder to hear in a whisper. So the sound "puhn kss" might be heard as "kns", without the "p" before it which is similar to the epithet sound.

But I have made a decision. I actually think now that Zimmerman uttered "punks". I do believe he racially profiled Trayvon. Frankly, most people would racially profile a lone, young black male walking around at night, whether they are willing to admit so or not. Of course, most people wouldn't stalk, chase and then shoot to death such a person, but that's not my point. I think, based on who Zimmerman is or thought he was that night, who he wants people to believe he is, that he would not have uttered such an epithet, especially during a call to police.

I think Zimmerman is a man with intense feelings of emasculation and inadequacy. I believe those feelings are so strong that they have resulted in simmering rage. But it is a rage that must stay hidden.

Zimmerman was very, very calm in the call. He seemed calm to people who saw him right after the shooting. He seemed calm in the surveillance tape, to me. I think that's because he has practice hiding his emotions.

Yes, he may utter things his subconscious would not readily identify as problematic, but that actually do reveal his inner motivations, like "those guys always get away", but a racial epithet is something his subconscious would immediately know would blow his cover as the calm, law-abiding man who helps stop crime. He is tightly controlled, IMO and would not have uttered such a word at such time.

And for those who are interested, I base my conclusions about his emotional state on what has been reported about his background, his words and actions that night and after (voicemail to a friend), what those who know him have had to say, and the types of people in general who are overly involved in calls to police, vigiliantism, and controlling the conduct of those around them, with a self-perceived, inherent authority, or a reality-based authority. :moo:
 
YIKES! This Robert Zimmerman, Jr. is a freak show. :moo:

I loved when he said GZ was the more honest brother. Now ,what could that mean, that Robert Jr was a very good liar but GZ was not as good as Robert Jr.:waitasec: It is all relative.
 
<snipped>

Thank you - I've asked this so many times. I don't believe GZ freaked Trayvon out, he was 17, not 12. Why did he run if he wasn't doing anything wrong, and if he was running for home, why wasn't he there two minutes later instead of on top of GZ? He lived very close to where GZ last saw him.

Is it possible that he stopped a few times to get out of the rain? Those FL rains are nothing to sneeze at, they come down by the buckets at certain intervals.
 

Reuters: Attorneys for the family of slain black teenager Trayvon Martin are asking the U.S. Justice Department to review reports that prosecutors undermined a police investigation of shooter George Zimmerman by overruling a detective who wanted to charge him.
It's premature to claim the prosecutors undermined the police - there's been no reversal on their decision, nor has there been an arrest, so who do they feel is undermining the special prosecutor?

Reuters: A separate report by TheGrio.com, unconfirmed by Reuters, said Wolfinger left his home the Sunday night of the shooting to meet with Sanford police in person.

"Why did he get out of his bed and go to the police station that night and overrule the lead investigator?" Crump said. "It doesn't fit well."
So now there was an investigation and there was so much care taken in the case the prosecutor rolled out of bed at 3:00 a.m. to take a first hand look at the evidence and over-rule the detective.

BEM: At least they're honest.
 
He may or may not have been? I think it's something to take into consideration? I'm not going to sleuth his son and dig up his past, but I am just angry that it seems like the description of these "black suspects" came from the same home that just shot a "suspicious black teen?"

I want to know if Mrs. Zimmerman was an actual witness to these crimes in order to give LE a truthful description?

Thanks for posting that link - I found the old 911 call fascinating! And after listening to it twice, I wonder why someone who had burglarized the neighborhood that very day would just be walking along? And why was it a crime to be walking between the houses - the same problem he seemed to have about Trayvon? Lots of questions...

ETA: One more thing that's odd - not giving out his address. In TN, we are required by law to give our address if we call 911. So that wouldn't work with the dispatchers where I live.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...male-that-matches-robbery-suspect#pl-62773735

Transcript by me...

Zimmerman: Hey, our neighborhood got burglarized, er, robbed today, and my wife saw one of the kids who did it. And we see someone who matches his description in the neighborhood right now again.

Dispatcher: Okay, and what's your address again out there?

Zimmerman: Uh, I'd rather not give out my address because he's obviously in the neighborhood which is the clubhouse.

Dispatch: Okay, so does he live in the neighborhood or is he just out walking?

Zimmerman: I don't know. It's the first time I've ever seen him.

Dispatch: (pause) Okay. And what is your name?

Zimmerman: My name is George.

Dispatch: Your last name, George?

Zimmerman: (gives name)

Dispatch: Okay, and is he white, black or hispanic?

Zimmerman: Black. (crosstalk) Uh, my wife talked to Detective Walker and gave her...him... a description of the guy we see now.

Dispatch: Okay, and what's he wearing right now?

Zimmerman: A white tank top and black shorts, brown sandals and black socks.

Dispatch: Okay, and is he walking?

Zimmerman: Yes.

Dispatch: Okay, and so is he near the...

Zimmerman: Near the back entrance to the neighborhood.

Mrs. Zimmerman's voice in background: He just went between the houses now

Zimmerman to wife: Between the houses to the back?

Wife: Yeah.

Zimmerman: Shoot.

Wife: He's looking at cars.

(garbled)

Dispatch: Okay, we'll get an officer out there to check the area.
 
Okay, in all fairness, this brings up another question. When news of Trayvon's backpack having women's jewelry and a screwdriver came up, I immediately thought of several legitimate reasons for that. I could think of legitimate reasons my own son might have those things. I know LE did not match any of the jewelry to any known stolen jewelry. LE never made an issue of this, it was just noted.

But since it is brought up that this was an entirely different location, and since there is a possibility GZ had "seen" Trayvon there before, it's fair to ask if GZ really did suspect Trayvon specifically of robbing houses there.

Secondly, I do not think that justifies GZ's actions even if Trayvon had fit the description specifically of a person seen breaking into houses. It was still not his job to stalk, confront, or hold anyone he suspected. And he was not EVER saying that Trayvon was in the act of committing an active crime in the moment he called 911, just that he "looked suspicious" and "THEY always get away".

I just want to be fair in considering all possibilities. And I want a true picture of what the deal really was.

In all fairness, Trayvon was never arrested & we don&#8217;t really know the deal with the jewelry; besides, what does the jewelry have to do with Zimmerman killing Trayvon? imo.

And we don&#8217;t know if Trayvon had ever been to that complex before, but suppose he had & Zimmerman had seen him, why would Zimmerman automatically suspect TM to have burglarized condos there? Just because TM was a black male and GZ thought he had seen him in the complex before? How would GZ know he wasn&#8217;t a resident? Besides, if GZ had seen a black male breaking into a condo, wouldn&#8217;t he have given the description to police? I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to assume that GZ reasonably suspected Trayvon of burglarizing condos there imo. I think GZ went after Trayvon just because he was black & because he thought he&#8217;d a hero, jmo.
 
I loved when he said GZ was the more honest brother. Now ,what could that mean, that Robert Jr was a very good liar but GZ was not as good as Robert Jr.:waitasec: It is all relative.

That was a really bad statement to make on live tv. :what:
 
Your post leaves me even more confused than before I read it.
You have things like 40-85% being found and then 48% means no match and then a score of 74-88 is inconclusive. Sorry I don't get it.

It was pure logic to me.

Let's not make everything about race without any evidence, considering there are plenty of cases where white people are killed and no one gets arrested for a long time or ever.

Race is automatically an issue when an unarmed black teenager is killed and the killer never charged, in a jurisdiction where race has always played a part in whether black people get justice, or not.

BEM: I wouldn't expect TM's mother could say the same about Trayvon.

With all due respect, nonsense. A mother will awaken from a dead sleep when her subconscious hears a slight change in one of her kids' breathing and will run directly to the room of the child whose breathing changed. Mom's can pick their baby crying out of thousands of babies crying. They know every nuance of their child's voice because it is how we are designed, so as to ensure survival of the species.

A mother recognizing her child's voice is acknowledged by animal experts, psychologists, scientists, throughout history, etc.:

"I knew when she was happy, when oppressed: as a mother knows the tones of her child's voice, to the minutest shade of difference, so I could tell when her heart was light and when sad." [From an 1866 fiction piece]
http://books.google.com/books?id=uH...onepage&q=mother knows child's voice&f=false
 
Yeah, kinda like no one would question self defense if HE was the one yelling for help. Oh, oops, guess that one isn't going to fly either. I guess we'll see how many experts weigh in on the cries for help and who made them.

And on the bullet in the back, is the fact that would shoot a hole in a self defense claim the ONLY reason you doubt that ? I personally have no clue whether the shot came from the front or back. No one has officially released that information yet. I can't imagine why; they have known from before he was buried. Is it because it would be inflammatory? I don't know why that is being withheld.

The only official version we have is that he was shot in chest at very close range. If he was shot in the back, I would think, LE would have said so.
 
If TM was bashing GZ's head into the ground -- how was he accomplishing this? GZ has no hair. We are to believe that TM palmed GZ's face and -- in the struggle -- was able to pull up, slam down, pull up and slam down. Given the police video of a pretty ok GZ, no blood, canceling the ambulance, it's just not going to fly that GZ is telling the truth on this count.

He could have used another appendage like ears, nose.
 
Bottom link: All Trayvon articles from fox35

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/subindex/news/trayvon_martin


this is the second article about the case, the first that id's TM

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...n-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

this is what his mother said when first interviewed.

He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."
 
I really doubt we are any more stupid than your average jury which will not consist of experts. So why is it beyond our understanding?

We have no idea what the normal % range is if a voice pattern totally unrelated to the recording, was used. Would that be 0%? Or 10 or 30%.
So 48% can not be translated into almost half right.
 
~Respectfully Snipped For Comment~

I think, based on who Zimmerman is or thought he was that night, who he wants people to believe he is, that he would not have uttered such an epithet, especially during a call to police.

I think Zimmerman is a man with intense feelings of emasculation and inadequacy. I believe those feelings are so strong that they have resulted in simmering rage. But it is a rage that must stay hidden.

I base my conclusions about his emotional state on what has been reported about his background, his words and actions that night and after (voicemail to a friend), what those who know him have had to say, and the types of people in general who are overly involved in calls to police, vigiliantism, and controlling the conduct of those around them, with a self-perceived, inherent authority, or a reality-based authority. :moo:

I think "who Zimmerman is or thought he was" and "who he wants people to believe he is" form the underlying core of why Trayvon Martin is dead.

George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing

A volunteer community watch captain who shot an unarmed Florida teenager to death last month had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics, a homeowner said.

Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association.

There had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics in his neighborhood watch captain role.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html

I think Trayvon was viewed by Zimmerman as an insignificant *advertiser censored****g c**n and the ticket for "Captain" George to fulfill his fantasies of becoming "General" George in his pathetic little kingdom.
 
<snipped>

Thank you - I've asked this so many times. I don't believe GZ freaked Trayvon out, he was 17, not 12. Why did he run if he wasn't doing anything wrong, and if he was running for home, why wasn't he there two minutes later instead of on top of GZ? He lived very close to where GZ last saw him.

I'm 60+ and I'd freak if a man (or any person) was eyeballing me and following me when I was minding my own business while walking home from a trip to the store. I'm sure I'd run and try to seek shelter or hide wherever I could from a possible psycho. MOO
 
Bottom link: All Trayvon articles from fox35

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/subindex/news/trayvon_martin


this is the second article about the case, the first that id's TM

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...n-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

this is what his mother said when first interviewed.

He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

Some observations:

The police perp-walked GZ as we see on tape. They were not high-fiving him. There is no evidence that the police gave GZ special treatment. Or that this police dept was acting in accordance with a scenario of bias toward minorities. They had him handcuffed. What more is being asked here?

Any stereotypes about police do not apply if they immediately handcuffed and perp-walked GZ. So how is that racial aspect of the past a fit to what happened?

HOW?

So why has GZ not been charged? Maybe because the attorneys who looked at the LAW and saw the first witness statements, did not believe that the FACTS, presented before the media hysteria did not ALLOW them under the law as it stands...to charge GZ.

Do you want them to NOT follow the. Law?

Is that so impossible a scenario? If GZ did have injuries, if witnesses supported his account...perhaps an arrest was not in accordance with the law AS IT STANDS?

But untruths and hysteria has molded this story.

If there is not an attempt here to MOLD a story..
Why were we shown a picture of a child..A five year old picture..for weeks? WHY?

Why could we not be shown the rEAL face that GZ saw that night..the face that was CHOSEN to be on Twitter by the victim himself? Was it because a child's face would manipulate us more?

Why is the word "stalking" used here constantly. GZ was part of neighbor WATCH. What to they do...they WATCH. Are you "stalking" when you care for a child and watch his every move? GZ was doing what, in other circumstances, we like our neighbors to do.

This was NOT a young who lived in that neighborhood...his face was not recognizable...MAYBE that was more important than his race or his hoodie. We are more WATCHFUL of strangers of any skin hue in our neighborhoods late at night..especially if they do not appear to be walking purposely from one place to the other. There had been burgularies. People of all races in the neighborhood were on guard. Is it so hard to allow that less sinister possibility to temper our judgements?

Everything about this case has been manipulated and hyperbolized...to the point of inciting violence.

NBC is now "investigating" the manipulation of the 9-11 tape..once again..to fit the metanarrative. Don't you care about the quality ofvthe so-called "facts" that are driving this media lynch mob? WHY did a major media outlet have to edit the 911 tape? The same reason we were shown a child's picture. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE TRUTH.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-edited-911-call-george-zimmerman-306574

This is a tragedy. But the lack of charges may just be that the law, as it stands, does not provide that GZ be charged. It just might be that race has no part to play in that decision. The law might need to be changed or scuttled.

But threats and manipulation of the public's emotion to the point that witnesses may now fear to say anything but what the mob wants to hear...and the DA may have to charge IN VIOLATION of the law..that is
Lynch mob mentality.
WHY ARE WE BEING SHOWN A FIVE YEAR OLD PICTURE? WHY are 911 tapes being manipulated? Why are initial witness statements magically changing?

It's a terrible tragedy to lose a son. It is also a nightmare, if innocent, to be the target of a media driven lynch mob...that cares nothing about the truth...only whipping up hysteria. The helplessness in the face of lies and distortion is excruciating. Everything is edited, distorted, to fit a picture.Just pray you never experience EITHER.
 
Good morning all...

That scream for help did sound so young and I do believe too that it was Trayvon screaming for help, not GZ...

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-screams_n_1394224.html

TM's parents must have some voice recording of Trayvon..so this can be done correctly, to prove this was Trayvon who was screaming for help. Poor kid must have been so frightened...

I pray for justice for Trayvon..:please:
 
George Zimmerman’s crumbling story, part 1: the video
By Jonathan Capehart


The killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman — the case where nothing makes sense, nothing — gained greater clarity in the last couple days. The story put forth by the Sanford Police Department and by Zimmerman “friend” Joe Oliver is starting to crumble.

Let’s go to the videotape.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-story-part-1/2012/03/29/gIQArFEUiS_blog.html


Posted at 10:15 AM ET, 03/29/2012 TheWashingtonPost George Zimmerman’s crumbling story, part 2: the mortician
By Jonathan Capehart

The SPD video ABC News aired last night raised serious doubts about Zimmerman’s account of a life-and-death struggle. Then, Richard Kurtz, the funeral director of the mortuary that received Trayvon’s body, stepped forward last night on MSNBC’s “The Last Word” to knock another huge hole in Zimmerman’s story. The unarmed 17-year-old showed no signs of struggle.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...the-mortician/2012/03/29/gIQAaOwsiS_blog.html


Posted at 12:45 PM ET, 03/29/2012 TheWashingtonPost George Zimmerman’s crumbling story, part 3: the detective
By Jonathan Capehart


Serino didn’t believe Zimmerman’s version of events and recommended a manslaughter charge. But he was overruled. And according to a report from Joy-Ann Reid of the Grio yesterday, the decision came from atop the law enforcement food chain: the state attorney.

A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin tells the Grio that it was then Sanford police chief Bill Lee, along with Capt. Robert O’Connor, the investigations supervisor, who made the decision to release George Zimmerman on the night of February 26th, after consulting with State Attorney Norman Wolfinger — in person.
Wolfinger told Serino that he didn’t think there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman. According to ABC News, Serino then filed an affidavit the night of Feb. 26 stating he didn’t believe Zimmerman. And we are now finding out that Serino then set out to bring the neighborhood watch volunteer to justice.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...the-detective/2012/03/29/gIQA3NvAjS_blog.html

I just hope ACory sees this and a Grand Jury sees it..I certainly hope if ACory doesn't bring charges before The Grand Jury convenes, that TGJ will see this for what it is and return a true bill...with a warrant for the arrest of GZ..
 
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