17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

[Nova]

maybe indisputable evidence was the wrong phrasing. But she is going to be convinced by the evidence that it was self defense, or she is going to be convinced that it was not....and even if there is not indisputable evidence it will have to go to trial, but I don't believe that it is going to be, well, we just don't know for sure so we aren't going to do anything. I firmly believe that there will be a preponderance of evidence one way or the other. IMO JMHO and stuff.

As I said above, I believe "probable cause" ("preponderance of evidence" is a similar, but civil burden) is enough to charge, but I think the DA has to believe she has proof beyond a reasonable doubt to actually go to trial. Charges get dismissed all the time because DAs can't meet this burden.

 

[Donjeta]

Sorry to snip your excellent post. I hope everyone reads it in its entirety on page 1 of this thread.

But you hint at an interesting question: suppose hypothetically that one believes African-American teens have been committing burglaries in the neighborhood and then getting away because police response times are slow. And further suppose that GZ was fed up and decided that THIS AA teen wasn't getting away, not tonight, enough was enough.

Is that a HATE crime? It has a racial element, certainly, but the animus is directed at a small, CRIMINAL subset of black youths, not necessarily at African-Americans in general. Racism being a complicated impulse, one might well have close AA friends and simultaneously feel a deep resentment at black criminals who were robbing one's neighbors.

Or to put it more briefly, assuming the above, GZ shot TM because GZ believed TM was yet another black youth burglarizing nearby homes, NOT merely because TM was black. Still not self-defense, but is it a hate crime under Florida law?

Well, I don't know Florida law but if you ask me it's a hate crime under those premises, since GZ didn't actually have any evidence that TM was part of a small criminal subset of black youths burglarizing homes, he just knew that TM was black.

 

[Boytwnmom]

we aren't. Not that I can vouch for these particular experts, but there's lots of things that seem one way to an untrained eye or ear or whatever but which experts in that area have a different method for discerning. And, of course, each side can usually find an expert to say almost anything so who knows what will be said next but this was hired by the paper which would likely sell copies regardless of the test results and I assume the experts are neutrals in this matter.

The who concluded it was TM because person screaming was young (in his opinion)? I don't buy that for a second. You can't determine an age by voice alone. For instance, I sound very young and when people call they ask to talk to my parents.

 

[legalmania]

So there has been quite a few robberies in the complex where Zimmerman lives. Wouldn't they be in a car, truck or van? Not to many people rob homes then walk down the street with a T.V. or dvd player.

<modsnip>

 

[songline]

Can anyone breakdown what the person screaming is saying?

When I first listened to this tape I thought I heard someone say "Oh My God Help!

I can not make out any other then the word help. But I can tell there is fear....:yes:

 

[Donjeta]

I don't look like a little child but I must sound like a little child because when I get phone calls and answer people ask me if they can talk to my mommy.
:floorlaugh:

Me too and it's totally annoying but I've never heard a grown man complain of the same.

 

[gxm]

I can agree with this part. Not the same thing, but I was flying one time and I was in the emergency exit aisle, and the flight attendant came up to me and told me I would have to move because you had to be a certain age to sit in that aisle. I was WAY past that age!

But after they made me read the booklet with the intructions on what my job was (letting everyone off the plane before me in an emergency), I asked them to move me because I wasn't going to agree with that. :floorlaugh:


But yes, I don't agree with them being able to say by the voice "It was a young man." I can see if they were taking Zimmerman's voice and comparing it... maybe?

I, too, have been told I sound younger than I am.

IMO, GZ is a young man. He isn't even 30 yet, is he?

Also, IMO, if/when this goes to trial we are going to see the prosecution expert say one thing, and the defense expert say another. The evidence in this case is just too much open to interpretation.

 

[RANCH]

I would think TM's family provided the something with TM's voice on it so testing could be done. Either to the FBI and/or SA. It could be the family already knows it was TM on that tape and OS got wind of it and decided to have their own test done themselves just to break the story. jmo

If they did provide a sample of TM's voice ,it didn't make it to the Orlando Sentinels experts. If the Orlando Sentinel had information regarding FBI testing why wouldn't they use that instead of the "Forensic Experience" guy.

 

[Nova]

I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN....

I agree. And now that we are reasonably sure the screaming is coming from Martin, I wonder what people imagine was happening? Were TM and GZ wrestling for the gun? Was TM just standing there pleading for his life?

I realize no one knows for sure. I'm just wondering what people think.

 

[Concerned Papa]

I've already explained this.

What happens if Martin's voice scored just as poorly? There's a reason they didn't unequivocally state that it wasn't Zimmerman, and stressed they had not tested Martin's voice.

BBM

What am I missing here?

A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.

His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...cation-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman.

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

“You can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...cation-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

There are no stated qualifiers subject to conditions or exceptions. Each state their conclusions as absolute with scientific certainty and therefore by definition, unequivocal.

 

[Donjeta]

I have questions as well.

"According to the Miami Herald, Zuazo said that three years earlier, Zimmerman attacked her while the two were driving to a counseling session. Zuazo said she popped her gum in his face and he repeatedly smacked her in the face. In January 2002, she added, Zimmerman became enraged that she had come home late. They wrestled and he threw her on the bed, smacking her, according to the newspaper."
Trymaine Lee - Huffington blog(Originally posted by shadowraiths)

George Zimmerman is 28.
So, they lived together in 2001, when he was 17 or 18, that's awfully young, he was just a child. The incident with the phone was worse than the two slapping incidents? I'm assuming so since she only reported only the one.

Popping her gum in his face in a car while he's driving is atrocious behavior....I'd stop the car and make her get out.

Very suspicious behavior.

She was lucky she didn't get shot.

 

[songline]

So there has been quite a few robberies in the complex where Zimmerman lives. Wouldn't they be in a car, truck or van? Not to many people rob homes then walk down the street with a T.V. or dvd player.

<modsnip>

:floorlaugh: running down the street with a TV.
How about running down the street with Jewelry, Money Credit cards, Cell, I pod, like this small stuff.

 

[Salem]

Do you have to do any kind of mental examination before getting a license to drive a car?

Well, in most places you do have to take a written test and be able to drive the car within the traffic laws.

I don't know of anywhere that tests any safety measures for owning a gun.

Just sayin'

Salem

 

[vlpate]

It makes this even more evil in my opinion. There doesn't seem to be a conscience here.

BEM: Where?

I hear the scream of someone desperate for help, Trayvon was past puberty. It could have been either of them.

 

[jjenny]

I can not make out any other then the word help. But I can tell there is fear....:yes:

I think I hear help in the beginning and no in the end.

 

[legalmania]

:floorlaugh: running down the street with a TV.
How about running down the street with Jewelry, Money Credit cards, small stuff.

It's not impossible but the article said it was a group of black men. That bothers me. Was there proof they were all black?

 

[iluvmua]

I know I am going to have nightmares abt this again tonight. But, now I am wondering if Trayvon really is on top of GZ but because he saw that gun coming out and tried to prevent GZ from getting his hands on it. So it may have been a fight over the gun, but to keep GZ from getting it out. There had to be a very good reason for a fight.

I'm thinking this is a very strong possibility that they were fighting over the gun

and it's also a very strong possibility that if TM was on top of GZ hitting him, banging his head on the sidewalk, GZ was reaching for his gun and then TM tried to prevent GZ from talking out his gun and that is why they might also have been fighting over the gun.

JMO

 

[m00c0w]

BBM

What am I missing here?






There are no stated qualifiers subject to conditions or exceptions. Each state their conclusions as absolute with scientific certainty and therefore by definition, unequivocal.

I was referring to Owen, and that entire paragraph is:

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

It seems like that last part is a pretty big exception to me. He only has half of the puzzle. You cannot determine validity in a certain scenario without a control group. "Reasonable scientific certainty" means just that - he's taken what he has into account and can reasonably make a hypothesis, however, he cannot confirm it was Trayvon's voice.

 

[rotterdam]

I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube

Why would the person firing the shot making such a heartbreaking penetrating scream. Think about it. GZ had a choice.

 

[SuziQ]

I only read something along the lines of "48% Zimmerman" whatever in the world that means.

What samples are the experts using to compare voices? I don't think I've heard either one of their voices - have family submitted samples of them?

You forgot the rest....
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...cation-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

(snip)
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.