17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #19

[angelmom]

Trayvon wasn't shot walking down the street - according to police and eyewitnesses, he was shot while getting the best of a man half a foot smaller than him. According to the law in Florida, in a self-defense case, TM would be considered an adult, not a child.

...

Disclaimer: The above is not an effort to make excuses for GZ and I truly am not trying to argue - I just can't "guess" what happened, I have to go by what has been said by LE & witnesses. As far as who confronted who - LE has stated the g/f's phone records are not consistent with what they have.

JMO

Link for both bolded statements above please? I have seen nothing from MSM that confirms either one, and haven't even heard a rumor about the GF's phone records not matching up. ETA: I went looking and found only a post where a blogger and non-MSM site was making a big deal out of whether Trayvon originally called the GF or did she call him. To which I say who cares and why does that even matter?

ABC still has this link up:

Trayvon's phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on the scene.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T4GgY46Q2KP


I cannot find any link where LE has stated that the GF's phone records do not match and would love to see a link if you have one.

 

[LambChop]

BBM..IMHO The question is WHY wasn't a fair and balanced investigation conducted? IIRC an investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter that night.. Seems to me since his decision was overruled LE has been more interested in sweeping Trayvon's death under the rug than holding their cards close to vest...JMHO

We would have to ask the SA that question because it appears he made that decision without even knowing who TM was.

I'm still trying to figure out how SYG applies when GA was not in his car and was not at home and TM was literally yards from his back door. Once you start to track someone I don't think that SYG law should apply. Self defense, maybe, if someone were to jump you. But to use SYG because you are somewhere where you would not have normally been, doing something you would not normally do in order to stop someone from committing a crime when there is no evidence any crime would have ever been committed. That sounds like a license to kill and certainly was not what the law intended. To me GZ actually created his own crime scene. TM was on his way back to the home where he was staying, returning from the store. No evidence proves otherwise. And legally he is still a minor no matter how tall he was. My nephew was 6' at 14, that would not have made him an adult. jmo

 

[Emeralgem]

We would have to ask the SA that question because it appears he made that decision without even knowing who TM was.
I'm still trying to figure out how SYG applies when GA was not in his car and was not at home and TM was literally yards from his back door. Once you start to track someone I don't think that SYG law should apply. Self defense, maybe, if someone were to jump you. But to use SYG because you are somewhere where you would not have normally been, doing something you would not normally do in order to stop someone from committing a crime when there is no evidence any crime would have ever been committed. That sounds like a license to kill and certainly was not what the law intended. To me GZ actually created his own crime scene. TM was on his way back to the home where he was staying, returning from the store. No evidence proves otherwise. And legally he is still a minor no matter how tall he was. My nephew was 6' at 14, that would not have made him an adult. jmo

BBM.. I realize that, however I'm more concerned with knowing IF the SA knew or has connections to GZ's father and mother..JMHO

 

[LambChop]

BBM.. I realize that, however I'm more concerned with knowing IF the SA knew or has connections to GZ's father and mother..JMHO

Well, let's see...what WOULD make an SA get out of bed in the middle of the night when he was not on duty to make that long trip in and ultimately make that quick decision. This was prior to an investigation using the SYG law when the homocide detective is telling SA they need to press charges just on what he have uncovered. The SA had no idea who TM was, so what made the him think that TM jumped GZ without any information as to why TM was at that exact spot and where he was going Did the SA want this case closed out immediately because of the SYG law??? Would that mean that the SA made a rush to judgement when he did not consider who TM was???? jmo

 

[waltzingmatilda]

BBM.. I realize that, however I'm more concerned with knowing IF the SA knew or has connections to GZ's father and mother..JMHO

IDK about GZ but if I were led into the Police station in handcuffs and had one phone call, I would say, "I'll call my dad, he is a retired VA supreme court magistrate". And, GZ felt compelled to point that out in his application to the Citizens Police Academy. (which really had nothing to do with anything wrt the assault on the plain clothes officer)

JMO

wm

OT I hope everyone is having a nice holiday weekend.

 

[Inabsentia]

BBM.. I realize that, however I'm more concerned with knowing IF the SA knew or has connections to GZ's father and mother..JMHO

I have become convinced that the SA has connections to GZ's father. Would you call your father in the middle of the night to come to the police station, or would you call your spouse? I can guarantee you that I would call my husband unless calling my Dad would help my situation in some concrete way. My dad is also an authoritarian former military guy and I would rather chew my own foot off than call him from the police station. Course, my choice might be different if MY Dad was a Supreme Court Magistrate who had saved my burning bacon before. Moo

Then, there is Robert Zimmerman choosing a lawyer who normally handles traffic court cases. Makes no sense until you consider that Sonner worked several years for Norm Wolfinger. Mr. Wolfinger has a long and colorful past filled with accusations of favoritism and lackadaisical prosecution of crimes he cannot be bothered with. Moo

 

[Isabelle]

I listened to someone talking about the stress tests the other day. From what I gathered, they are mostly used for LE hiring purposes. I can't imagine they routinely give these tests to suspects who've just shot someone. That would be like giving me one before my coffee in the morning. :jail:

They did say the tests are used sometimes as an interrogation tool, much like the polygraph, I suppose. JMO

LE may have used the voice stress test just to have something to do during the time that they had GZ with them. Voice Stress Tests are not able to detect deceitfulness.

 

[Emeralgem]

I have become convinced that the SA has connections to GZ's father. Would you call your father in the middle of the night to come to the police station, or would you call your spouse? I can guarantee you that I would call my husband unless calling my Dad would help my situation in some concrete way. My dad is also an authoritarian former military guy and I would rather chew my own foot off than call him from the police station. Course, my choice might be different if MY Dad was a Supreme Court Magistrate who had saved my burning bacon before. Moo

Then, there is Robert Zimmerman choosing a lawyer who normally handles traffic court cases. Makes no sense until you consider that Sonner worked several years for Norm Wolfinger. Mr. Wolfinger has a long and colorful past filled with accusations of favoritism and lackadaisical prosecution of crimes he cannot be bothered with. Moo

BBM..DARK RED Thank you.. I did not know that to be the case, however not surprised...
I'm so sick and tired of the GOOD OLE BOY system and the mentality that goes along with it....JMHO

 

[vlpate]

One could also say Trayvon was shot and killed BECAUSE he was walking down a street. For whatever reasons (I have my own ideas), that made him suspicious to Zimmerman so that he felt the need to pursue him. Had he not done that, there wouldn't have been the need for self defense on the part of either party.

That makes <mod snip> point regarding whether he was an adult in the eyes of the law according to ABC rather moot, IMO.

Trayvon Martin was minding his own business while walking down the street. Trayvon Martin was not an adult according the the law.

<mod snip> quote for reference:

MOO

It wasn't ABC's point. I don't know if this website is allowed, it looks like a news site, but it's hard to tell, which is why I didn't use it in the first place. The point was made during an ABC interview by Angela Corey. It's a legal point that I found interesting.

"In an interview with ABC News, expert and veteran state attorney Angela Corey says that although Martin was only 17-years old in life, his stature (6-3, 150 pounds) could qualify him as an adult in the courts."
http://loop21.com/life/stand-your-ground-law-working-for-george-zimmerman

 

[Dr.Fessel]

It wasn't ABC's point. I don't know if this website is allowed, it looks like a news site, but it's hard to tell, which is why I didn't use it in the first place. The point was made during an ABC interview by Angela Corey. It's a legal point that I found interesting.

I have never in my life heard of the height or weight of a person being used in court to determine if they are an adult. Makes no sense to me.

On your link it says Trayvon was 6'3. On the police report it says Trayvon is 6'. Where is the 6'3 coming from? Police had the body, they would have measured it.

 

[LambChop]

Really, there is no pushing to it. It is why the department of justice is there and the FBI. To investigate that angle.

And in order to keep this from happening again I think we ALL need to know if there was an ANGLE and what exactly that ANGLE was. jmo

 

[Concerned Papa]

So Zimmerman indicates it as a cut through street so no wonder I'm confused. There is no cut through street in the complex. There are only 2 streets in the complex - which are Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees. I don't consider Twin Trees as a cut through road. Thanks for answering my question.


~jmo~

There is one more down by where GZ lives that connects to Twin Trees, Long Oak Way. There are a total of three, two as you enter. GZ was on Twin Trees and parked at the cut thru path that leads to the next street, Retreat View Circle. Why didn't he tell them he was on Twin Trees? He's lived there since 2009, how could he not know what street he was on????? jmo

After information furnished last week by Robert Zimmerman, I don't see how there could be ANY confusion as to the location of this "cut through", whose location also defines, for the first time, exactly where GZ's vehicle was parked.

This is what started the question:

911 dispatcher:

Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman:

Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

The following excerpts are from Robert Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity this past week:

HANNITY: Let me ask you, when the dispatcher said to him on that 911 tape, we don't need you to do that, meaning because he said, yes, I'm following Trayvon Martin.

Did he follow him? Did you ask him if he followed him at that point? And what happened from that point forward? Tell us the rest of the story.

ZIMMERMAN: From where George's vehicle was, there's a sidewalk that goes to the next street over.

HANNITY: OK.

ZIMMERMAN: Off of that sidewalk there's another sidewalk that goes between two rows of townhomes. It's my understanding that Trayvon went between the two rows of townhomes, and George was walking down the main sidewalk to see if he could see where Trayvon was going.

He continued walking down that sidewalk to the next street. He wanted an address. All he could see was the back of the townhomes and he could not see an address.

As he was walking back to his vehicle, there was a sidewalk that goes to his left and Trayvon came from that area where the sidewalks meet.

http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/05/zimmermans-father-speaks-out-hannity

Now, particularly notice these three snips from the above:

Robert Zimmerman:

(a) From where George's vehicle was, there's a sidewalk that goes to the next street over.

(b) Off of that sidewalk there's another sidewalk that goes between two rows of townhomes.

(c) he was walking back to his vehicle, there was a sidewalk that goes to his left and Trayvon came from that area where the sidewalks meet.

Notice the first 5 words of (a) FROM where George's vehicle was?

Look over the image attached below and you will find that there is one place, and one place only, in this development that George's vehicle could be parked and meet the qualifying requirements of a sidewalk that goes to the next street over WITH another sidewalk intersecting it to run between 2 rows of townhomes.

When Robert Zimmerman described in such precise detail his son's path of movement for his address hunting excursion, he story removed all doubt as to where the cut through mentioned by GZ was located.

 

[songline]

You are correct. However, I do believe that shooting someone to death makes a killer.

IMO there is a big difference in employers wanting their employees to dress in an appropriate way when they're representing the firm and stalking someone on the street because they're dressed wrong (in someone's subjective opinion).

Point being we all judge and it is not the makings of a killer.
Sadly Trayvon is dead not because GZ judged his cloths or color.
Sadly Trayvon is dead and there are still pieces of the puzzle missing.
LIKE - what happened during those 2 minutes? Who challenged whom and how?
Nobody has that information. How can they make any decisions on what happened???
:moo:

 

[octobermoon]

I have never in my life heard of the height or weight of a person being used in court to determine if they are an adult. Makes no sense to me.

On your link it says Trayvon was 6'3. On the police report it says Trayvon is 6'. Where is the 6'3 coming from? Police had the body, they would have measured it.

If my son, who was 6'2, 200lbs at that age had said to me "but mom I am big enough to be an adult, why can't I have a kegger this weekend?" His 5'5 125lb mother would have laid down the law! LOL

 

[songline]

I have never in my life heard of the height or weight of a person being used in court to determine if they are an adult. Makes no sense to me.

On your link it says Trayvon was 6'3. On the police report it says Trayvon is 6'. Where is the 6'3 coming from? Police had the body, they would have measured it.

Some articles have said early on that he was 6'3" but even if he was 6 feet he is A HEAD larger then George. the concept of a kid with regard to a physical confrontation is not applicable at all.
The way I see it, TM was an athlete, and no child when it comes to muscling George in a confront.

 

[LambChop]

LE may have used the voice stress test just to have something to do during the time that they had GZ with them. Voice Stress Tests are not able to detect deceitfulness.

I think GZ did pass. I believe from looking at his arrival at SPD less than an hour after he shot someone he appeared to be perfectly composed, asking the officer to tuck in his shirt. So, yes, I believe he passed showing no signs of stress whatsoever. jmo

 

[songline]

Don't have a problem believing he saw the helicopter, but possibly you could explain how, when he "ran out to the street", he was able to not only count the cars but read the agency names on the doors as well? Surely he didn't run down there from almost three football fields away and risk losing that intimate, "in the know" neighbor image he's been trying to project from the beginning?
:what::what::what:

JMO, JHMO, MOO, etc.

Sorry Papa, It is not 3 foot ball fields away at all, it is at bet 1/10th of a mile, surly he can walk that in 3 minuts.

:moo::moo:

 

[vlpate]

I have become convinced that the SA has connections to GZ's father. Would you call your father in the middle of the night to come to the police station, or would you call your spouse? I can guarantee you that I would call my husband unless calling my Dad would help my situation in some concrete way. My dad is also an authoritarian former military guy and I would rather chew my own foot off than call him from the police station. Course, my choice might be different if MY Dad was a Supreme Court Magistrate who had saved my burning bacon before. Moo

Then, there is Robert Zimmerman choosing a lawyer who normally handles traffic court cases. Makes no sense until you consider that Sonner worked several years for Norm Wolfinger. Mr. Wolfinger has a long and colorful past filled with accusations of favoritism and lackadaisical prosecution of crimes he cannot be bothered with. Moo

I would call the person who knows the law if I were at the police station, possibly facing murder charges. IMO, anyone would. It is what happened after that call that is important, IMO.

BEM: I looked for this interesting association to no avail. Would you mind telling me where this info comes from? TIA

 

[raeann]

Some articles have said early on that he was 6'3" but even if he was 6 feet he is A HEAD larger then George. the concept of a kid with regard to a physical confrontation is not applicable at all.
The way I see it, TM was an athlete, and no child when it comes to muscling George in a confront.

6 ' is only 3 inches taller than 5'9" ....... I am assuming here that neither one of their heads was 3 inches high as opposed to the average size of an adult male head which is just over 9" high.

GZ was comparable in height to ALL of the officers walking with him on the jail video, he was NOT shorter than 5'9" unless ALL of the officers were also VERY short by some coincidence.

jmo

 

[mercuriod]

It seems that Sanford PD has had problems for a long time and not just racial issues - time some "house cleaning" is in order?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...inal-justice-standards-officers-criminal-case

misuse of an officer's public position as in the case of Sanford police Officer Christopher McClendon.

FDLE found McClendon helped a Sanford auto-sales company acquire repossessions in exchange for having his car loan forgiven.

http://www.newsmanateearchive.com/2010-02-06-local.asp

Officer Messages 'Embarrass'
Sanford Police Department

SANFORD, Florida [NMT/WKMG] -- Orlando television station WKMG reported the Sanford Police Department said it is embarrassed by the conduct of a recently terminated police officer who typed racist and sexual messages into the inter-agency computer system.

Some of the comments in the internal investigation document are too profane to print or air, but all were typed on the inter-agency computer system inside patrol cars, which is public record.

Bowen wasn't the only officer in hot water due to inappropriate comments. Officer Ned Golden, Jr., was suspended without pay for two weeks.

Golden is accused of making sexual comments about young girls and typing messages like, "It relaxes me when I'm pulling over speeders."

"That subsequent message is, 'No, I'm looking for young females under the age of 13,'" the investigator read before explaining that the comment was interpreted to mean Golden was looking for young girls to be involved in a sex act.

Unlike Bowen, however, Golden will keep his job with the department. Sanford officials said the differing punishments came because Bowen never admitted what he said was wrong, while officer Golden did.

Golden is also the son of the police union president, but the SPD said that played no role in him being able to keep his job, WKMG said.


http://www.wftv.com/news/news/suspended-cop-part-of-influential-family/nJw8W/

SANFORD, Fla. —
Two Sanford police officers were in trouble for sending racial and sexual computer messages. Officer Ned Golden Jr. was suspended and Officer Jason Bowen was fired.

Eyewitness News learned that Officer Golden is a part of an influential family in the police department. Ned Golden's father is head of the police union and documents show his family is not new to troubling allegations

Golden’s father is president of Sanford's influential Police Union, and has had similar problems in the past.

In 2004, a black officer accused Golden Sr. of racial intimidation after he allegedly said, "People like you disgust me."


http://www.wftv.com/news/news/police-dept-calls-officers-actions-unsafe/nFDBG/

SANFORD, Fla. —
Police say a grainy video shows a Sanford police officer threatening a car full of people with a gun, but then he charged the driver with attempted murder. Now, police admit the officer blew the case out of proportion.

But, the officer is not being fired; he's being re-trained.

In the grainy video, Officer Ned Golden Jr. approached a car of people pumping gas with his gun drawn. He then grabbed the car door as they drove off and then charged the driver with attempted murder on an officer.


http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...deo-released-in-sanford-police-officer-firing

An officer in Sanford has been relieved of his duties after a complaint from a man arrested for attempted murder, and a video surveillance tape that did not match the police report. Officer Ned Golden Junior was fired on Monday after an investigation from the Department. Sergeant Dave Morgenstern with Sanford Police says what was on the tape was not what was in the report.


http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-03/...chief-brian-tooley-florida-police?_s=PM:CRIME

The police chief in Sanford, Florida, was ousted Monday following questions about how investigators handled accusations that a police lieutenant's son punched a homeless man in December.

The news came just hours after Justin Collison, 21, surrendered to authorities on an arrest warrant issued December 28. Collison, a police lieutenant's son, was wanted in connection with an incident caught on video December 4. He has not been formally charged.

A video aired by CNN affiliate WFTV shows one man punching another man in the back of the head. The victim was described by witnesses as a homeless man who was trying to break up an unrelated fight outside a bar.

The tape then shows the attacker walking a short distance and pushing a second man, throwing him to the ground as others shout for "Justin" to stop. The man who was punched in the back of the head appeared to be unconscious for several minutes.

Police took statements from witnesses and the victim after the fight, but did not arrest Collison.