17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #19

[Emeralgem]

Could be they thought TM came in from Miami to burglarize around there..GZ being a serial 911 caller, they might have thought, well this time GZ got his thief...:what:

I think LE didn't know until Tracey Martin wanted to make a missing persons report...that's when they found out who TM was and where he was living...but at first glance they truly might have thought, this time GZ got his man...:maddening:

My understanding is TM's name was on the report, before TM's father contacted LE so they knew who he was...However there was a homicide investigator that felt GZ should have been charged with manslaughter due to the fact his story did not coincide with the findings at the scene.. Apparently his decision was overruled by the SA and the chief of police..JMHO

 

[songline]

Is that even physically possible? To shoot someone while they are lying flat on top of you while using both hands (which you would have to with someone who has no hair) to bang your head and then be able to get your gun out and shoot that person without risking shooting yourself??? There is a spot in the middle of a male's body that could render him helpless in seconds but GZ risked going for his gun????? My "feeling" is TM was trying to get away and GZ pulled the gun out and they both panicked. jmo

This is only an assumption:
what if George is on the bottm and Trayvon is banging his head,
why cant George remove his gun and shoot while TM is on top of him?
If that is the Scenario then George would have had to inch out from under.

 

[Emeralgem]

I don't think he was shot because of a "feeling". He was shot to prevent Zimmerman's head from being further pounded, IMHO.

IMHO.. I don't believe that for a second.. Seems the homicide investigator didn't believe that to be the case either...JMHO..

 

[jjenny]

It seems to me that Corey has been pretty clear she won't be using the GJ process, but will arrive at whatever decision herself.

She claimed that originally but grand jury is about to start and still no arrest.

 

[LambChop]

If they had found the jewelry's rightful owner, and this was all a misunderstanding, I'm SURE that would have been mentioned by Trayvon's supporters. The article I read said it hadn't been resolved.

He wasn't arrested because no one knows whose the jewelry is - whoever owns it was never found.

r

We do not know that and I don't think the school would have taken TM's word that the jewelry did not belong to his family without consulting them. The school has no authority to release anything other than what they have commented on. If they know who the jewelry belongs to they cannot reveal that information, they have no right to. They mentioned the incident because it's public record. If there was a crime, TM would have been arrested for receiving stolen items. He was not. The issue was resolved and we are not permitted to take in any further than that because it involves another minor. All we have left to consider is that TM was never charged with any crime and was not suspended because he had the jewelry in his possession. It's not a crime and apparently there is no evidence of a crime by TM. jmo

 

[Allusonz]

Brought over from the previous thread. When you state "cut through", are you thinking sidewalk cut through? This is not where Zimmerman was when he didn't know the address - he was on the cut through street. He was trying to describe it during the call. He was telling them to take a left..no not a left..."it's the cut through, I don't know the address". If you look at the map, it is the street that curves around to the left and straightens out again. That is my understanding.

The police never actually walked Tracy Martin through the crime scene, by his own admission. He stated this during an interview on MSNBC.

JMO

Not sure if this will help vlplate but on this map from the NY times there are 7 white arrows which are indicating cut throughs.

It is the 6th picture which shows them. I have an educated guess which one I believe it to be but it is just that an educated guess. HTH

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...on-martin.html?scp=2&sq=trayvon martin&st=cse

 

[mercuriod]

NO not to walk... lol


As people are looking into George's background, they have also looked into Trayvons background.
But they seem to make George look like a monster for things that happened over 10 years ago when he was about Trayvons age.
YET as they look at Trayvons history they seem to call it all "nothing".

I DO NOT....
I do not see squeaky clean on either side. I feel both should be taken into account rather than vilifying one and saintifying another.

I feel all should be part of a thourough investigation.

Why does TM need to be investigated? For walking down a public street?

jmo, imo and all that jazz

 

[LinasK]

You are correct. However, I do believe that shooting someone to death makes a killer.

IMO there is a big difference in employers wanting their employees to dress in an appropriate way when they're representing the firm and stalking someone on the street because they're dressed wrong (in someone's subjective opinion).

Exactly! Whether it was spur of the moment cop wannabe, or whether he was a racist vigilante, either way George Zimmerman played judge, jury, and executioner to Trayvon, which he had NO right to do! The only things TM was doing was being a black male, walking down a street, wearing a hoodie, carrying Iced Tea and candy, and maybe looking- not casing- at houses while he talked on the phone with his girlfriend. None of that is illegal activity!

 

[songline]

Yes, you say something. Period. You do not take it further than that. You say something to LE, the ones who are paid to take care of it. You call them and step aside. Period.

Songline, I know that you made several posts earlier criticizing the media, so I want to say something briefly about that: I'm glad the media brought this case to my attention, and I'm glad that Trayvon's family accomplished that by demanding answers. If not for them and the media, we would not have known about this case. It raises many important questions that must be talked about. That's the only way we can learn and progress.

All IMO.

Martha,
I really hate that new law, I really hate the way the police handled this case, and I really want Tyavon’s parents
to get answers. ABSOLUTLY.

< mod snip >
Was he overzealous. yes - not a crime.
did he carry a gun - I hate that too - in Florida it is not a crime.
Did something snowball out of control YES but we don&#8217;t have all the details.
AS FOR the media - there are many ways to skin a cat.
they can report information or slant information.
TO report they too have to investigate parts of what they say on TV. They just ran with a story that sells.
They mad a tabloid money Machine, and while the economy needs money, that is one hell of a horrific way to create it.
My Strong Opinion.

 

[csziggy]

After looking at the distance between these two residences and the curve in the street preventing a line of sight between the two points, I’ve got a problem believing in Frank Taaffe’s ability to accurately tell us anything pertinent regarding whatever happened in this “prank” emergency response by SPD.

If I can’t believe what he says about this:



How am I supposed to believe any of this?

Ol' FT is probably still patrolling the neighborhood.

IMO, JMO, etc.

 

[songline]

Why does TM need to be investigated? For walking down a public street?

jmo, imo and all that jazz

I answerd that in post 239

 

[LambChop]

We don't know what he was doing, is one of the huge points here. We know that at some point, (between 6 and 6:30) he had been in the 7-11 and had bought the snacks. We don't know what else he was doing, or what his behaviors were that made GZ believe he was suspicious.

We do know because GZ told LE and we all heard it and nothing indicates TM was doing anything wrong. GZ was suspicious because of other people's behavior in the past and that had nothing to do with TM. TM went to the store and was on his way back only yards from his back porch before he was shot. Was there a suspicion that he was planning on breaking into a home right next to where he was staying?????

GZ was constantly on guard for any reason to suspect certain people. <mod snip> GZ was looking for someone who fit "his" profile of a suspicious person. TM just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That does not make TM suspicious, that made GZ suspicious of TM because of the behavior of others, not TM's behavior. The rest is history. jmo

 

[songline]

If you have jewelry stolen you report it to the police. They ask for a description. Kids don't just steal what they know is good, they tend to take it all so you would know it was missing and what the good stuff is. Even if you only remembered two or three items it would be enough for them to call you and check if any of the jewelry was yours. Whenever you lose that jewelry you claim it on your insurance if it's of any value.

If they had a website with pictures anyone could claim it was their jewelry. LE usually will ask..."Was there also a necklace that is missing and can you describe it?" They don't let you see it unless you can describe it in detail. jmo

good point that anyone can claim..
would not they need a photo with themselvs or their family wearing that piece? LIKE PROOF.

 

[MarthaM]

Martha,
I really hate that new law, I really hate the way the police handled this case, and I really want Tyavon&#8217;s parents
to get answers. ABSOLUTLY.

<mod snip>
Was he overzealous. yes - not a crime.
did he carry a gun - I hate that too - in Florida it is not a crime.
Did something snowball out of control YES but we don&#8217;t have all the details.
AS FOR the media - there are many ways to skin a cat.
they can report information or slat information.
TO report they too have to investigate parts of what they say on TV. They just ran with a story that sells.
They mad a tabloid money Machine, and while the economy needs money, that is one hell of a horrific way to create it.
My Strong Opinion.

This story needs no embellishment. It is horrific enough on its own.

 

[octobermoon]

Why does TM need to be investigated? For walking down a public street?

jmo, imo and all that jazz

Walking in the rain looking up to no good. :maddening:

This from a guy who had called police 46 times. I am 20 years older than the man and have called twice. Once when a car crashed into the bottom window of the apartment complex. (Thank the Lord all survived.) And once when I was robbed at knife point. He must of seen crime all around him all the time. :what:
And correct me if I am wrong, but not one person was arrested (or all the a^&^^%s got away). :banghead:

 

[Chris_Texas]

But if you look at history of both NEITHER is squeaky clean.

No one is. Therefore we make subjective judgements based on the "flaws" we know of. For example, does evidence that Trayvon might have once smoked pot make him more likely to attack people, or more likely to crave Cheetohs? And how does this compare, when we are talking about a history of violent assault, to Zimmerman with multiple priors for assault, including assault on a police officer?

Neither is an angel, but that doesn't make both (or either) the devil.

Minutes prior cant indicate who jumped whom, which changes things?

You are not alone in misunderstanding this critical point -- likely because quite a few pundits are deliberately confusing the issue. This case is about homicide, not assault. It is completely irrelevant who attacked who. The ONLY thing relevant is what took place at the moment Zimmerman decided to pull the trigger. Trayvon could have rode up to Zimmerman on a unicycle, hit him in the face with a pie, bonked him with a rubber mallet, pantsed him, and they backflipped his way down the sidewalk, and it has no bearing on the legality of Zimmerman KILLING him. Homicide is only justified if the killer can convince a jury that he had a reasonable fear for his (or someone else's) life and that no other option was available -- he had to be stopped immediately.

But we do not know what we would do if someone was threatening to us.

Actually I do, having experienced both the threat, and the attempt, many times. However, my experience is not yours or Zimmermans. I will give you this: no one knows how they will react, and all the training in the world doesn't change this. Whether or not someone's reaction was appropriate is subjective, we can and do debate it. The standard for most things like this is "reasonable." What would Joe Blow do in a similar situation. That's why we have juries -- and for a jury to convict ALL TWELVE have to agree that the suspect did not act in a reasonable manner. It's tough to get twelve people to agree what toppings to put on a pizza, so if you can get twelve to agree a shoot was bad it was probably bad.

I once used this as an analogy in a class:
You see a father spanking his young one - you think OMG I would love to spank that man myself, how dare he spank this little boy.

What you do not see is that child was running out into the street where the cars are, he was told not to do that, it is dangerous. Daddy had to pick up baby so he lets go of the boys hand and the boy runs out into the street again, he is reprimanded again. Baby falls asleep in daddy’s arms and daddy put baby in carriage. Again the boy runs into the street, where daddy told him twice not to go, this time Daddy spanked him...and that is the only part you have seen.

Is the daddy still bad? NOT in My Opinion.

So in this case --- what we do not know, we do not know.

Nice lesson. I agree. What we do not know we do not know. Where we differ is this:

Because millions of reasonable people believe that the police have failed to do their job here (either due to incompetence, corruption, or outright racism), and given that this department apparently has a history of just this, and given that the police in this case have had plenty of time and have used that time to conceal rather than reveal information, it is reasonable to demand that information.

In other words, we NEED to know what we currently do not know. If the police conduct has been correct, then we need to know this so we can put this mess behind us. If it has not been correct, we need to know this as well so we can remove the cancer and begin healing. What we cannot do is allow this wound to fester, Trayvon and all the future Trayvon's demand better, and we all should as well.

The time for obstruction and games is over. We need these answers today.

 

[LambChop]

Exactly! Whether it was spur of the moment cop wannabe, or whether he was a racist vigilante, either way George Zimmerman played judge, jury, and executioner to Trayvon, which he had NO right to do! The only things TM was doing was being a black male, walking down a street, wearing a hoodie, carrying Iced Tea and candy, and maybe looking- not casing- at houses while he talked on the phone with his girlfriend. None of that is illegal activity!

BBM: That comment just struck me. Looking down at the map..what would TM be looking at other than the houses. They were to the left, right and in front of him. What else was he suppose to look at? And when you are on the phone who thinks about what they are looking at. You are focused on the conversation and TM was obviously interested in what she had to say because their conversations lasted most of the day. jmo

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

Wonder how long he's been trying to get mileage out of this?

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d...ation-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008

Notice how he said the officer assaulted him first? It's always someone else who started it, isn't it? Same with the drunk, belligerent woman. He had to pick her up & throw her because she started it. He really makes me sick.

 

[songline]

Who knew a "grill" and a school suspension made someone deserving of being stalked and murdered? i guess the fact that he came from a good family, his dad lived in a good neighborhood and was willing to take TM when he was on suspension, was active in his church, participated in football for YEARS which takes tons of hard work and discipline and had alot of people around that truly loved him Does NOT matter in the least bit...
Very sad that people in the world I share my life with (as does my own son) still feel this way...

BBM
Who said that? Where is that analogy coming from?
I have not seen one person who said that TM deserved death for any reason.


This is what I mean when I say people seem to translate things in whatever way.
Sadly in my view we can not come to any conclusions yet.

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

< mod snip > You say that you judge which is certainly your right but believe it or not, there are people out there (myself included) who don't. I have never judged someone based on the clothes they wear or the number of tattoos they have on their skin. The true qualities of an individual lie on the inside, not in the clothes they wear and not because they have tattoos.


~jmo~

Great post!