17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #33

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The sources I read, including Hare, say sociopathy = psychopathy but the terms have been conflated in popular media.
Hare says that the terms denote a differing view of "origins and determinants". Paraphrased, sociopaths are more influenced by society, while psychopaths are more influenced by psychobiological conditions or abnormalities.

My source being Hare's book, Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. Page 23.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3026707...d-psychopath-experts-seek-clues/#.T5o7WMRYskI

lol. It doesn't even look like Hare fully believes psychopaths are "born that way".

Why my goodness, aren't you just too clever by half. :)

From the same article, BBM:

Ochberg believes that genetics plays a strong role in the development of psychopathy, and that environmental influences are much less important. “I believe the building blocks of psychopathy are largely inherited,” he says, “and by 5 or 6 you either put together a normal conscience, a superego, or you don’t.”

I would happily continue to argue this point, as apparently one thing we have in common is our love of arguing, but IIRC my original post was admittedly O/T so I don't think we should continue here.

However I will argue by pm if you wish to take it offline.
 
Why my goodness, aren't you just too clever by half. :)

From the same article, BBM:

Ochberg believes that genetics plays a strong role in the development of psychopathy, and that environmental influences are much less important. “I believe the building blocks of psychopathy are largely inherited,” he says, “and by 5 or 6 you either put together a normal conscience, a superego, or you don’t.”

I would happily continue to argue this point, as apparently one thing we have in common is our love of arguing, but IIRC my original post was admittedly O/T so I don't think we should continue here.

<modsnip>
And that is one viewpoint that is addressed. My entire point has been that there are two schools of thought - social influences versus biological influences. Nature versus nurture. This is a debate as old as psychology itself. You have two different terms for seemingly the same condition - sociopathy and psychopathy. One denotes the belief that the individual innately had the disorder, while one denotes the belief that the individual was affected environmentally moreso than anything else. Even Hare mentions this in his book, pointing out the differing schools of thought on the matter.

My initial point stands that it's a contested viewpoint, and there's not a general consensus. Hare even recognizes it himself.

<modsnip>
 
Hare says that the terms denote a differing view of "origins and determinants". Paraphrased, sociopaths are more influenced by society, while psychopaths are more influenced by psychobiological conditions or abnormalities.

My source being Hare's book, Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. Page 23.

And IIRC in a later book--perhaps Snakes in Suits, I read a number of books on the topic at the same time--he says otherwise in an update to this statement.

I may be wrong though, and I may be confusing him with another author of the books I read, but I have yet to come across any author who claims psychopathy/sociopathy can arise without any genetic component.

And again this whole discussion is O/T so I won't continue further here as I fear the Wrath of Mods.
 
So MOM didn't know about the apology not being wanted. We all knew about it from reading the news.

MOM didn't know about the Paypal accounts. We all knew about them from reading the news.

What else is MOM going to claim he was completely in the dark about that we all know?
 
So MOM didn't know about the apology not being wanted. We all knew about it from reading the news.

MOM didn't know about the Paypal accounts. We all knew about them from reading the news.

What else is MOM going to claim he was completely in the dark about that we all know?

bbm

That his client murdered Trayvon in cold blood? JMO MOO IMO
 
Is In Session or any of the local stations carrying the hearing live?

I watched the late night WKMG (clickorlando) tonight and all they said is they would have a live update from the courthouse during the noon broadcast show.
 
And that is one viewpoint that is addressed. My entire point has been that there are two schools of thought - social influences versus biological influences. Nature versus nurture. This is a debate as old as psychology itself. You have two different terms for seemingly the same condition - sociopathy and psychopathy. One denotes the belief that the individual innately had the disorder, while one denotes the belief that the individual was affected environmentally moreso than anything else. Even Hare mentions this in his book, pointing out the differing schools of thought on the matter.

My initial point stands that it's a contested viewpoint, and there's not a general consensus. Hare even recognizes it himself.

If you wish to further address this with me, I'm open to PMing.

BBM--Absolutely my last post on this subject before I get modwhacked for being off topic.

I do apologize if I have not been clear on this point, but I do not think you (the rhetorical you, not you personally) will find any source claiming that psycho/sociopathy arises solely from social/environmental conditions, rather than a combination of social/environmental conditions and biological disposition.

And the sources I have researched, including Hare IIRC, posit that the biological influence is stronger than the social/environmental.

Good night now. :)
 
BBM--Absolutely my last post on this subject before I get modwhacked for being off topic.

I do apologize if I have not been clear on this point, but I do not think you (the rhetorical you, not you personally) will find any source claiming that psycho/sociopathy arises solely from social/environmental conditions, rather than a combination of social/environmental conditions and biological disposition.

And the sources I have researched, including Hare IIRC, posit that the biological influence is stronger than the social/environmental.

Good night now. :)
I've never claimed anything one way or the other. You said that this researcher believes people were born this way. That's a far stretch from people were born predisposed to a condition and environmental factors compounded the issue (not everyone predisposed to a condition develops the condition). I merely said that there is debate as to whether individuals were born psychopaths, or engineered into being sociopaths. I never said which I believe, nor that one is absolute (I certainly never said only one factor was responsible). You made the reference to individuals with this disorder being "born that way".

Good night.
 
So MOM didn't know about the apology not being wanted. We all knew about it from reading the news.

MOM didn't know about the Paypal accounts. We all knew about them from reading the news.

What else is MOM going to claim he was completely in the dark about that we all know?

Perhaps he has an undiagnosed medical condition which is impairing his ability to remember important pieces of information vital to the case.
 
Okay one last thing just a little rant I need to get out of my system, directed at nobody here at WS.

Our founding fathers were extremely intellligent men who knew what they were doing when they wrote the Constitution. And I agree completely with the concept that every accused deserves a fair trial and a vigorous defense, and all else the Constitution guarantees.

However, my belief is that the founders intended the defense to make sure the accused's Constitutional rights were protected, rather than give leeway to such things as the defense claiming stuff never proved (IE that other Florida case); trashing the victim's family (van Dam case and others ad nauseum); and underhanded stuff such as "accidentally" letting slip the name of a minor witness in a pretrial hearing (as in someone whose initials begin with MOM).

I dunno, where did the line get crossed between protecting the accused's rights and throwing around any noodles, however nasty, to see if they would stick in a jury's mind or any other important place?

I really wish one of our legal experts who has studied US legal history would weigh in on this. I mean the system is better than pillories or public stoning, but this aspect of what is allowed within it is disgraceful IMO.

/rant
 
he's been there, done that, and won't be inclined to make more of it than it is with respect to the culpability of the defendant. He may chew O'mara a new one...or not...idk. But I can see that he is prepared to take one for the team if he has to. jmo

He who and what team?
 
:waitasec:

It's very possible that experts in the realm of the same perspective all share the same opinion. However, an individual that practices from the biological perspective may believe it's something present naturally before birth, while an individual that practices from the psychoanalytic method may believe it stems from childhood experiences.

Psychology is one field where most things are not cut-and-dried, and for most viewpoints (at least revolving around pathology), you will have an equally authoritative but opposite viewpoint. And many people in the middle. I'm not contesting your sources. I'm saying that because one scientist and peers in the same area he researches in say it's one way doesn't necessarily mean that it's accepted in the general field of psychology.

This is a total misrepresentation and misunderstanding of these disciplines. No psychologist, IMO, would make such generalised and misleading statements.
 
Great. Please find a reputable source who stakes his/her claim that psychopaths are made, not born.

I didn't find any in my research, but that doesn't mean you won't.

Psychopaths' brains are shown to be different in the areas dealing with emotion and empathy. It is largely believed that they are born "hardwired" as psychopaths. If they were 'made' they would be amenable to therapy/rehabilitation and they are not. This is also a huge area of study for me as well in the past 12 years. I concur with your statement about hard-wiring, and so does a lot of the literature, which in fact, is pretty paltry on origins, i found. Robert Hare really got the ball rolling after Cleckley's seminal work, The Mask of Sanity.
 
George Zimmerman: Attorney may not use Stand Your Ground defense....

"It's really too early to say until we see the facts, once we see the evidence, and we can come up with an idea as to what defense applies to it. Stand your ground, traditional self defense, We just don't know yet," said Mark O'Mara.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/new...icles/cfn/2012/4/26/george_zimmerman_att.html

I had to go back and find this link...thanks, Adrienne...

So MOM is not even sure what direction he's going to take for the defense at this point...regular self defense or SYG?

And most of GZ's supporters were thinking for sure that SYG would be used and it would be a quick out for GZ....looks like MOM is not so sure about that.
 
How does the psychopath debate tie in with the George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin case?
 
He who and what team?

Kind of a convoluted sentence but I think she is talking about the judge at first and then saying MOM is willing to take his scolding for the team, about the paypal accounts/money not disclosed by GZ.

That's the way I understood it.....
 
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