2008.06.16 James T. says he saw Caylee alive around Noon #1

[panama]

A few notable things, and some thoughts:

- The Casselberry Walmart is around 3-4mi from Tony L.'s house. Google map

- This document: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2009-08/48524243.pdf , contains maps that LE generated of her cell phone pings. It seems that the Walmart is within the range of the cell towers that are very close to Tony L.'s house. (See page 249, for example. Walmart is located at the lower left corner of the large body of water right under the "Casselberry" label, which is within the radius of the left-hand cell tower.)

- Even so, the records from the 16th don't seem to indicate that those towers (near Tony L) pinged "around lunchtime." They did ping around 6pm though.

- On Sunday June 15th (father's day), she does ping those towers between 9:15AM and 2:40PM.

Perhaps JT is mis-remembering:
Maybe he saw them on Sunday the 15th around lunchtime, and what struck him was that it was father's day, as opposed to the day after. (The new 4pm info might affect this, though.) Or, maybe he did see them on the 16th, but around 6pm.

If either of these is the case, perhaps his thought about how Caylee should be in school actually happened on the 10th when they were in his store, and he incorrectly believes it occurred to him at the Watmart encounter. This would explain how he could have actually seen them on Sunday the 15th or in the evening on the 16th. (It probably would still have been light out at 6pm on the 16th, so a memory of it being light out would not contradict a memory of thinking that Caylee should be in school.)

- re Walmart doors: I know I've absentmindedly gone up to and pushed on automatic doors, only to find that they swing open a little later. It seems possible that Caylee did this as well.

BTW: aside from the PDF, I'm referring to the ping maps from
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73267"]Ping Map for June 15, 2008 - Discuss that day only - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame] (15th) and
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73218"]Ping Map for June 16, 2008 - Discuss that day only. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame] (16th)

 

[Ada]

We're talking about someone with a likely Axis II diagnosis.

Of course she's going to shop at the stores near to her boyfriend's house. Everything she does becomes whatever it is he does. Lurking in his part of town? Makes perfect sense.

Aside from the creepy personality disorder aspect of clinging and copying her paramour, she might also have been over there simply because it is close to his house and she was planning to see him.

 

[Baxter]

A few notable things, and some thoughts:

- The Casselberry Walmart is around 3-4mi from Tony L.'s house. Google map

- This document: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2009-08/48524243.pdf , contains maps that LE generated of her cell phone pings. It seems that the Walmart is within the range of the cell towers that are very close to Tony L.'s house. (See page 249, for example. Walmart is located at the lower left corner of the large body of water right under the "Casselberry" label, which is within the radius of the left-hand cell tower.)

- Even so, the records from the 16th don't seem to indicate that those towers (near Tony L) pinged "around lunchtime." They did ping around 6pm though.

- On Sunday June 15th (father's day), she does ping those towers between 9:15AM and 2:40PM.

Perhaps JT is mis-remembering:
Maybe he saw them on Sunday the 15th around lunchtime, and what struck him was that it was father's day, as opposed to the day after. (The new 4pm info might affect this, though.) Or, maybe he did see them on the 16th, but around 6pm.

If either of these is the case, perhaps his thought about how Caylee should be in school actually happened on the 10th when they were in his store, and he incorrectly believes it occurred to him at the Watmart encounter. This would explain how he could have actually seen them on Sunday the 15th or in the evening on the 16th. (It probably would still have been light out at 6pm on the 16th, so a memory of it being light out would not contradict a memory of thinking that Caylee should be in school.)

- re Walmart doors: I know I've absentmindedly gone up to and pushed on automatic doors, only to find that they swing open a little later. It seems possible that Caylee did this as well.

BTW: aside from the PDF, I'm referring to the ping maps from
Ping Map for June 15, 2008 - Discuss that day only - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (15th) and
Ping Map for June 16, 2008 - Discuss that day only. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (16th)

BBM

This is the exact time Cindy left for Mt. Dora with Caylee and around the same time she returned. So,Casey was not with Caylee during this time period on June 15, 2008.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

And since he's done an interview with WESH we can hardly say that he's withheld his information because he didn't want public/media scrutiny now, can we?

 

[TakeNote]

BBM

This is the exact time Cindy left for Mt. Dora with Caylee and around the same time she returned. So,Casey was not with Caylee during this time period on June 15, 2008.

sorry if im wrong....but didnt the guy say they came in about a week before fathers day? and then again on the day after 16th?.....cant remember what news i read that from.....i will see if i can find it

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/0929/21146711.pdf

add: he said june 9th came into his store
he said the day after fathers day he seen her at walmart

CA took caylee to see papa on fathers day

 

[BondJamesBond]

If you're willing to entertain explaination/speculation based on a closer look @ the cell pings and call patterns of Casey and Tony...lemme suggest that Casey & Caylee were @ the Casselberry Walmart ~6:44PM-6:56PM, on 6/16, which would have JT seeing them leave ~6:56PM.

Details explained here [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4249618&postcount=350"](link)[/ame] .

 

[RR0004]

If you're willing to entertain explaination/speculation based on a closer look @ the cell pings and call patterns of Casey and Tony...lemme suggest that Casey & Caylee were @ the Casselberry Walmart ~6:44PM-6:56PM, on 6/16, which would have JT seeing them leave ~6:56PM.

Details explained here (link) .

Ok...so how long then did she have to kill Caylee?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Why didn't he state early evening or dinnertime in the police report?

Heck, I have a problem with all the people (GA) in this case who claim they can remember the details going back long periods of times - who can do that?

This guy never gets pretty ladies in his shop? If there's been another one who knows she's been in his shop, please speak up. Then let's quiz him about her - bet he can't remember the day the blond with the hourglass figure, mini skirt and platform heels was in his shop - not when it's a month later that he would have to recall THE DAY that she had been there.

KC never looked that outlandish to me - Florida has hundreds of scantely dressed young women running around.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Ok...so how long then did she have to kill Caylee?

IMHO, narcissistic Casey left Caylee to expire in the car (Pontiac or Amy's totalled car) in the parking lot of Sutton Place Apt. that evening when she headed up to Tony's apartment before going to Blockbuster <7:54PM. Caylee survived her first ~2hrs when Casey took a break and drove her to Walmart ~6:44-6:56PM...so Casey figured WTH...and tried it again for the night.

Dunno precisely how long it took for medical death to occur. A few hours. :cry: Scenario would also be consistent w/ the 'coffin flies' (see Jolynna's post in the Evidence thread), the ADD for a 6/19-6/20 bagging/disposal, and the body possibly being in a fetal position in the trunk (a reflex reaction upon exposure to extreme stress/trauma).

 

[Mystic]

Why didn't he state early evening or dinnertime in the police report?

Heck, I have a problem with all the people (GA) in this case who claim they can remember the details going back long periods of times - who can do that?

This guy never gets pretty ladies in his shop? If there's been another one who knows she's been in his shop, please speak up. Then let's quiz him about her - bet he can't remember the day the blond with the hourglass figure, mini skirt and platform heels was in his shop - not when it's a month later that he would have to recall THE DAY that she had been there.

KC never looked that outlandish to me - Florida has hundreds of scantely dressed young women running around.

I know what your saying, in an earlier post I said he described as to why she stood out. I still would like some more to this... like receipts of his or KC's purchases that day... security video or even that he'd called in a tip earlier on. And SA may have more to substantuate it, so I'll wait and see. I don't want to completely discredit him at this point but I can't see why he wouldn't have called in a tip at the time everyone was searching for Caylee.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Gosh, I want this man to be telling the truth so we can narrow down what really happened to Caylee. It doesn't have to be a knight in shining armour riding a white horse. But it doesn't seem like we should have to make very many alterations and rationalizations to make what he said sound like the truth, either.

He's now adjusted his timeline to fit into Georgia PI's ping maps (which he referred to in his interview). He's also erased our excuse for being tardy with his reporting because he wanted to remain anonymous as long as possible (by his interview with WESH).

I hoping that there is more substance than what we're seeing here because he is on SA's potential witness list. That's the only thing that's making me question my own first impression of his statement right now. It just doesn't seem like a truth should have to be manipulated so much.

 

[Mystic]

There is somethhing I thought of regarding the lunch vs late afternoon time mentioned. I don't know if it applies at all with a business owner but will throw it out there. My ex was a shift worker and always would refer to lunch, breakfast etc... with the specific order of 'his' day; so for him breakfast could very well be noon time and lunch at dinner or even midnight KWIM? I don't know the hours of operation of JT's business or if he had other employee's covering certain times of the day. Just a thought.

 

[mom2chloe]

But, Bond, doesn't it make you suspicious of him for changing his "lunchtime" to Georgia PI's 4 p.m. timeframe ~ especially if he's showing he's cognizant of what the ping maps show? I can almost swear to you that anyone who has gone to USAFA ("square meals" and all) knows lunchtime is not near 4 p.m. ~ and would also know if he's trying to describe a time of day to anyone (regardless of his own schedule) that 4 p.m. does not equate to lunchtime. Aren't you a little suspicious that he may be tweaking his story to fit the facts now?

FWIW, most people who work retail hours would refer to the lunch period as being around noon only if the work day began in the morning. If their workday begins later than a morning shift, the hours of 4 to 5 pm would most likely be a "lunch" or dinner time. A motivated sales person doesn't want to miss the potential "afterwork" crowd as a significant amount of retail sales are done after the 5pm timeframe.
IMO, a 4 pm "lunch" time works perfectly for this owner/salesperson and I am thrilled to see that this lines up with the pings. :thumb:

 

[The World According]

I know what your saying, in an earlier post I said he described as to why she stood out. I still would like some more to this... like receipts of his or KC's purchases that day... security video or even that he'd called in a tip earlier on. And SA may have more to substantuate it, so I'll wait and see. I don't want to completely discredit him at this point but I can't see why he wouldn't have called in a tip at the time everyone was searching for Caylee.

Do we have any way to search through the tips , like put in a search name? It would be most helpful if he did call in a tip , but I trust that LE pulled all video of ALL STORES AROUND HER HOME AND TONY'S HOME AND THE ALLEGED APARTMENT COMPLEX AND AMY'S PLACE just as SOP.

 

[The World According]

Great post but I disagree in one minor area: I don't think KC put much effort into playing the role of a good mom for her family. CA was seeking help from a therapist and had been advised to seek custody for a reason and it wasn't just that KC didn't have a job. It takes a LOT more than that to get a custody change, especially from a parent to a grandparent and I'd expect most therapists to know that because they are often called in on these kinds of cases.

I was hoping that this could be asked of Cindy under oath, why were you contemplating taking custody over, even discussing it often with co workers?

 

[Spangle]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.10.05 Today's Current News - ***NO DISCUSSIONS HERE PLEASE ***

Hope the above link works.

I just read that the time the witness saw Caylee is around 4 rather then what I thought was previously as noon. Can someone tell me if this is a misprint. All I could think of is OMG that really makes it quite possible that KC put her in that trunk alive. So little time before being with Tony.

Since the family used the tape on the Posters as was used on Caylee, then KC had to have taped her up at the home, before going out.

If the wal-mart thing is true, then KC must have returned home after being seen by JT. Would GA have left for work yet?

IF it's later in the afternoon, then there would have been time for KC to be reminded that a kid wasn't invited to the party later. Stop by wal-mart to get a little 'help' and KC might have been mentally 'disassociating' with Caylee when they were leaving Wal-Mart.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Since the family used the tape on the Posters as was used on Caylee, then KC had to have taped her up at the home, before going out.

If the wal-mart thing is true, then KC must have returned home after being seen by JT. Would GA have left for work yet?

IF it's later in the afternoon, then there would have been time for KC to be reminded that a kid wasn't invited to the party later. Stop by wal-mart to get a little 'help' and KC might have been mentally 'disassociating' with Caylee when they were leaving Wal-Mart.

Here you go, Spangle. See "Candidate 4b" in the post linked in the following quote. Starting @/near Tony's with the travel time required to make the roundtrip to/from G&C's, the 4:53-5:57PM slot (a.k.a. "4b") would be the only timeframe in the pings that would permit a return trip home. To answer your question directly, yes, George would've left for work <3PM. IIRC, Cindy prolly got home ~6:30PM. I believe in an earlier ramble I suggested that Casey would've attempted a call to the Hopespring house phone before driving all the way back there 4:53-5:57PM. So, FWIW, the absence of a call suggests to me she didn't go back. If she did go back she could've been there 5:16-5:34PM when we allow for travel time between the pings near Tony's.

HTH.

If you're willing to entertain explaination/speculation based on a closer look @ the cell pings and call patterns of Casey and Tony...lemme suggest that Casey & Caylee were @ the Casselberry Walmart ~6:44PM-6:56PM, on 6/16, which would have JT seeing them leave ~6:56PM.

Details explained here (link) .

 

[steadychick]

Here's another scenario -- KC was planning to leave Caylee in the trunk while she spent time with Tony, so she took the duct tape with her when she left the A's and took it back another day. Or, as mentioned in another thread, maybe the tape was bought in a package of more than one, so there was still a roll left for George to hang posters. The stop in Walmart could have been for medication to make her sleep. Bond -- wasn't there a time period prior to KC's arrival at Tony's that is unaccounted for, where there were no pings and it was speculated she may have bound Caylee during this time?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bond -- wasn't there a time period prior to KC's arrival at Tony's that is unaccounted for, where there were no pings and it was speculated she may have bound Caylee during this time?

*snipped*

See the link in the 2nd quoted post in #657 above, steadychick.

I gave each of the unaccounted timeslots a name (e.g. Candidate 4a-4d) and suggested how much time each of them would allow for a trip to Walmart when the travel time was accounted for...as well as one option, 4b, that would permit a trip back to G&C's (unlikely, IMHO). Take your pick for any of these providing time/opportunity to apply duct tape if you wanna go w/ peri-mortem application. I kinda noodled w/ 4b trip home being a duct-tape application trip...which would require 4a to be the JT sighting. Although it seems Casey would've more likely driven over to Gentiva and waited it out for Cindy vs. driving all the way back to G&C's. Woulda put duct taping really, really close to when Cindy could've been arriving home too...so...pretty risky IYKWIM.

I've always kinda wanted to think Caylee had the benefit of some OTC's to 'soften' her ordeal. After seeing how much stuff was still in the car & recovered @ the disposal site...it seems there would've been a decent chance of finding an empty OTC container. IIRC, there were a few items from the disposal sight that could've been used or associated w/ giving an OTC...but no 'smoking gun'. No comments from JT about Casey or Caylee carrying anything outta Walmart. Surveillance video, receipts, etc. would be extremely valuable. If Casey did buy anything with cash and they couldn't find a receipt or a sureillance video...at least the timeframe for candidate 4a visit is so short that LE could've done an inventory of all sales @ the Casselberry Walmart for that brief few mins., eliminated the ones that could be attributed to other individuals, and then looked for any OTC purchases that might've fit the bill. That wouldn't hold up in court...I know...I'm just daydreamin' :bang:

 

[steadychick]

Bond -- maybe it wouldn't hold up in court, but if any of this is true, it's gotta be putting a great deal of pressure on the defense. They would have known about the JT story before the State released it -- could explain the sudden publicity tour. I can't help but believe there is a reason for the timing of releasing JT's statement. And now suddenly Baez is talking about a plea? Just too much of a coincidence if you ask me, but then maybe I'm just daydreamin too.