2008.06.16 James T. says he saw Caylee alive around Noon #1

[AZlawyer]

I thought the ME's report said that the duct tape was applied before decomp.

It was a little vague...before ANY SLIGHT amount of decomp or before any SIGNIFICANT decomp? You have to look at the ME's reasoning...IIRC it was because the tape would not have adhered so well if decomp had started. So if there was something done to make it adhere better (wiping off the area with paper towels) maybe that would overcome the decomp problem.

 

[Pink Panther]

It was a little vague...before ANY SLIGHT amount of decomp or before any SIGNIFICANT decomp? You have to look at the ME's reasoning...IIRC it was because the tape would not have adhered so well if decomp had started. So if there was something done to make it adhere better (wiping off the area with paper towels) maybe that would overcome the decomp problem.

Oh bah hummmbag...This woman doesn't have a brain...I think she put the tape on either shortly before or shortly after..No messing around with a corpse or to try to make anything "adhere better". She didn't have a clue about what she was actually doing or how it would present itself under scrutiny. This "woman" is a so utterly stooopid she killed and dumped her daughter's body within 200 meters of her own house (typical of mothers who kill). I am waiting patiently for her conviction...

MOO

 

[RR0004]

IMHO, narcissistic Casey left Caylee to expire in the car (Pontiac or Amy's totalled car) in the parking lot of Sutton Place Apt. that evening when she headed up to Tony's apartment before going to Blockbuster <7:54PM. Caylee survived her first ~2hrs when Casey took a break and drove her to Walmart ~6:44-6:56PM...so Casey figured WTH...and tried it again for the night.

Dunno precisely how long it took for medical death to occur. A few hours. :cry: Scenario would also be consistent w/ the 'coffin flies' (see Jolynna's post in the Evidence thread), the ADD for a 6/19-6/20 bagging/disposal, and the body possibly being in a fetal position in the trunk (a reflex reaction upon exposure to extreme stress/trauma).

Oh, my...thanks BJB...I know how tough this must be to write all this. Did we ever see the missing cell phone records...was it the 17th or the 18th we didn't see at first?

 

[3doglady]

If KC killed Caylee en route from the Walmart to TL's, what happened to Caylee's shoes?

 

[VespaElf]

I cant tell u the amount of chitty parents Ive seen walking fairly fast & far ahead of VERY little ones in busy public places & on the street.They then express annoyance & irritation that the little one cant keep up,is too slow etc When you see that type of callous & cruel behavior it makes you shudder to imagine what goes on behind closed doors........case in point KC.I believe this witness but thats imo(although I didnt need anymore evidence that KC is a crappy excuse for a human!)

 

[Curious Me]

I'm sorry, but I find it incredibly strange that JT waited six months to report seeing Casey and Caylee. The news was just too hard to ignore at that time. He must have been mildly interested because he recognized them, and I would think he knew when Caylee went missing, etc., I don't know if I trust his waiting six months. Was he afraid he'd be a suspect?

 

[Zoe Bogart]

....... Casey left Caylee in the car alive--perhaps with no active intent to kill Caylee but with an absolute lack of concern over whether she lived or died--then went to the house the next day and applied the duct tape (3 very long, overlapping strips) because she saw insect activity and freaked out.

Do you really think KC would have done that with insects and other vile things coming out of the body?

She couldn't even walk deeper into the woods to dispose of her, instead, dumping her rather closely to the roadway.

This is a gal who never went to a lot of trouble for anything but composing lies. I can't see her getting up close and personal with bugs.

 

[static]

I was just wondering about the coffin flies. If there was decomp fluid leaking before the tape was applied, there would have been flies other than coffin flies if I am not mistaken. Jolyanna's post was very helpful in covering that. Another thing, unless she was drugged, she would have been yelling for help...someone surely would have heard that. I could be wrong though.

 

[CBTampa]

Maybe this has already been discussed, but if I remember their was a interview with someone who quoted KC as saying that "they have the timeline wrong". I don't know whether it was Tracey or not. I thought when I heard that it was a odd thing for KC to say. Anyone else remember that?

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Maybe this has already been discussed, but if I remember their was a interview with someone who quoted KC as saying that "they have the timeline wrong". I don't know whether it was Tracey or not. I thought when I heard that it was a odd thing for KC to say. Anyone else remember that?

NG audio clip: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/09/ng.01.html

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: The first morning I was there, I woke up to George -- I couldn`t really hear Casey, but I woke up to, Quit your (DELETED) lying. I mean, screaming. They could have heard it across the street. Don`t (DELETED) lie to me. I`m not putting up with your (DELETED). Don`t do that. You know, he`s screaming at her. She`s going, No, no, you have to believe me. Don`t treat me like a cop. This is before Leonard talked to her. You act like my father. Act like you`re my father instead of a cop. I`m not listening to your (DELETED). Quit (DELETED) lying.

She starts talking about the shovel and she says, Well, hello, they didn`t even have the timeline right. And the mom says, No, and she -- no - - the mom -- Casey said, They didn`t have the timeline right. And then her mom said, yes, they didn`t know what you were doing. And she goes, Hello, I was using it to knock the bamboo down. And then she said, And look for the -- or get the ladder out of the pool.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

 

[steadychick]

--then went to the house the next day and applied the duct tape (3 very long, overlapping strips) because she saw insect activity and freaked out.

But how to apply the duct tape if there was a little decomp setting in already? Perhaps wipe off that area with the paper towels from the Tony trash bag that later showed evidence of probably human fatty acid ratios and maggots

KC would have had to worry about Caylee waking up in the trunk and someone possibly hearing her. Nope, I believe that if JT's story is true, the tape was placed on a live, and hopefully sedated little girl. How horribly sad and monstrous.

 

[cecybeans]

It was a little vague...before ANY SLIGHT amount of decomp or before any SIGNIFICANT decomp? You have to look at the ME's reasoning...IIRC it was because the tape would not have adhered so well if decomp had started. So if there was something done to make it adhere better (wiping off the area with paper towels) maybe that would overcome the decomp problem.

If Jolynna's Excellent Post is credible (not her, the source), then the presence of coffin flies would indicate a live body in the trunk that later died. If that's the case, it would seem the duct tape was put on ante-mortem and might even be considered COD in the absence of any other information.

I would think that, if KC threw her in the trunk (because, after the flurry of calls she knew she had no babysitter for Blockbuster Night) perhaps drugged and with duct tape (four pieces seems a little much for a child who was expected to wake up at some point though), then there would still be decomp after 2.6 days, when she could have used the paper towels to sop up some decomp when she bagged her on the 18th and the Anthony home. She may have also returned the duct tape to the house at that point as well. And I think she left the paper towels in the trunk until she threw in the garbage bag from Tony's. Probably took it to the car just to toss them in and forgot all about it later. There are so many things on the timeline that we cannot possibly pin down and may never know. But I'm beginning to think that what we may be curious about is not necessarily critical to getting justice. It seems there is already a lot of indisputable evidence of guilt already on the table.

 

[Valhall]

Do you really think KC would have done that with insects and other vile things coming out of the body?

She couldn't even walk deeper into the woods to dispose of her, instead, dumping her rather closely to the roadway.

This is a gal who never went to a lot of trouble for anything but composing lies. I can't see her getting up close and personal with bugs.

I'm sorry to be a hold out on this, but, yeah, I still think the duct tape was applied post-mortem. I think the same day the shovel was borrowed is the same day she opened that trunk and saw what the horrors of death and a hot trunk in Florida can do to the beautiful face of her daughter. I think she taped over her nose and mouth at that point because little Caylee's tongue was probably swollen and protruding, and her nose and mouth would have been seeping. And then I think she double-bagged her.

 

[Tuffy]

I'm sorry to be a hold out on this, but, yeah, I still think the duct tape was applied post-mortem. I think the same day the shovel was borrowed is the same day she opened that trunk and saw what the horrors of death and a hot trunk in Florida can do to the beautiful face of her daughter. I think she taped over her nose and mouth at that point because little Caylee's tongue was probably swollen and protruding, and her nose and mouth would have been seeping. And then I think she double-bagged her.

But the ME says the tape was applied before decomposition. She was pretty clear on that. I think because the tape does not indicate a protruding tongue or signs of decomp on the face.

 

[magic-cat]

KC would have had to worry about Caylee waking up in the trunk and someone possibly hearing her. Nope, I believe that if JT's story is true, the tape was placed on a live, and hopefully sedated little girl. How horribly sad and monstrous.

I agree that if this fellow is accurate in his dates and times that poor little baby Caylee went into the trunk of that car drugged but alive and with three strips of tape across her baby face to keep her quiet. I do not think that Casey would have wanted to touch Caylee long enough to place the tape around her face and all the way around into her hair the way it had to have been to have held the mandible in place. I am still a hold out for the fact she taped a chloroform rag over that baby's face so she would go to sleep...forever...so Casey would be able to live the beautiful life that did NOT include a "snotnosed" child in the mix...I vote if this man is true and accurate that the tape was the weapon used to end her life.

 

[magic-cat]

I also think this would account for the "fetal position" outline in the trunk...poor baby must have curled into a ball and went forever to sleep.

 

[magic-cat]

Okay, so help me out here guys! The fetal postiion bothers me.

If Caylee was in a fetal postion, in the trunk, with tape over her mouth and around her skull, wouldn't that mean,
A) Caylee was alive and went into the fetal position out of fear? Maybe, frightened by being placed in the dark trunk, and gagged. One would not go into a fetal postion after death.
B) Her mouth was taped prior to death to keep her from screaming and being heard by passerbyers? That's why so many pieces of tape, and wrapped around the skull to keep it from coming off.
C) She could have possibly suffocated from the heat of the trunk, or having her nose and mouth covered by the tape.
D) The only other things that bother me is: 1) Was Caylee's hand bound also? If not did she try to take the tape off her mouth. 2) Did she kick and fight to get out of the trunk? 3) Or, was she drugged prior to being placed in the trunk, 4) I know a parts of a little shirt were with or near the body, but if her pants and shoes were missing, did she have an accident in them and make KC mad? Lee claimed Caylee was not trained on the potty as yet. She was still wearing pull-ups. Did KC lose total control over a potty accident and beat Caylee so badly that she couldn't let anyone see what damages she did to the child?
I know these thoughts are stretching, but so is this entire situation.

Much easier to lift a small child in the fetal position with a shovel into a waiting receptacle, like a laundry hamper for instance.

 

[cecybeans]

I'm sorry to be a hold out on this, but, yeah, I still think the duct tape was applied post-mortem. I think the same day the shovel was borrowed is the same day she opened that trunk and saw what the horrors of death and a hot trunk in Florida can do to the beautiful face of her daughter. I think she taped over her nose and mouth at that point because little Caylee's tongue was probably swollen and protruding, and her nose and mouth would have been seeping. And then I think she double-bagged her.

While that is certainly a possibility, I just cannot imagine Lazy KC doing anything with her daughter's corpse at that point but sliding plastic bags over her like two pillowcases end to end. It would involve the least amount of physical contact, imo. I can't see her wasting time putting several layers of duct tape over her mouth and touching any part of her body unless she absolutely had to. If she was double-bagged, there would really be no reason to cover those two orificies.

Something is telling me that Dr. G would not say homicide if she had any reason to believe the duct tape was post-mortem. I sure hope those coffin flies come through, or another piece of evidence we have not seen yet.

 

[magic-cat]

I'm sorry to be a hold out on this, but, yeah, I still think the duct tape was applied post-mortem. I think the same day the shovel was borrowed is the same day she opened that trunk and saw what the horrors of death and a hot trunk in Florida can do to the beautiful face of her daughter. I think she taped over her nose and mouth at that point because little Caylee's tongue was probably swollen and protruding, and her nose and mouth would have been seeping. And then I think she double-bagged her.

Knowing how lazy Casey is I have trouble with this theory. For one, she could easily have just pulled a bag over Caylee's head and whala-no more horrors to view...in order to place three strips of tape over her face she would have to have way too much interaction with the corpse, and I am sorry, but I just don't see little Miss "I am so cute and hot" spending ANY time with the corpse but that which was necessary. It IS possible, however, that she did pull a bag over Caylee's head and taped it on with the duct tape, and the animals pulled the bag off to get at her and the tape remained perhaps because Caylee's hair was sticking out from under the bag??? I really don't know...but one thing I do know is the creature who was planning what outfits would make her look the hottest on TV would not have dirtied herself taping up a dead decomposing face...she is not wired that way IMO...

 

[magic-cat]

While that is certainly a possibility, I just cannot imagine Lazy KC doing anything with her daughter's corpse at that point but sliding plastic bags over her like two pillowcases end to end. It would involve the least amount of physical contact, imo. I can't see her wasting time putting several layers of duct tape over her mouth and touching any part of her body unless she absolutely had to. If she was double-bagged, there would really be no reason to cover those two orificies.

Something is telling me that Dr. G would not say homicide if she had any reason to believe the duct tape was post-mortem. I sure hope those coffin flies come through, or another piece of evidence we have not seen yet.

Looks like we were having the same thought at the same time...again cecybeans...:waitasec: