2008.06.16 James T. says he saw Caylee alive around Noon #1

[BondJamesBond]

Okay, so help me out here guys! The fetal postiion bothers me.

If Caylee was in a fetal postion, in the trunk, with tape over her mouth and around her skull, wouldn't that mean,
A) Caylee was alive and went into the fetal position out of fear? Maybe, frightened by being placed in the dark trunk, and gagged. One would not go into a fetal postion after death.
B) Her mouth was taped prior to death to keep her from screaming and being heard by passerbyers? That's why so many pieces of tape, and wrapped around the skull to keep it from coming off.
C) She could have possibly suffocated from the heat of the trunk, or having her nose and mouth covered by the tape.
D) The only other things that bother me is: 1) Was Caylee's hand bound also? If not did she try to take the tape off her mouth. 2) Did she kick and fight to get out of the trunk? 3) Or, was she drugged prior to being placed in the trunk, 4) I know a parts of a little shirt were with or near the body, but if her pants and shoes were missing, did she have an accident in them and make KC mad? Lee claimed Caylee was not trained on the potty as yet. She was still wearing pull-ups. Did KC lose total control over a potty accident and beat Caylee so badly that she couldn't let anyone see what damages she did to the child?
I know these thoughts are stretching, but so is this entire situation.

Hey, RevCrim. All good questions/points. Whaddaya say we carry this over to a 'theories' thread to explore these further?

 

[RevCrim]

Fine with me. but I don't know how. If you can do it, great! Thanks !

 

[cecybeans]

Looks like we were having the same thought at the same time...again cecybeans...:waitasec:

Uh-oh, we are sharing a brain again, lol!

 

[steadychick]

I tend to think that KC wouldn't have to purchase OTC when there was probably a pharmacy at home. She could have already been "packing" when she went to WalMart and simply bought a Gatorade. We still haven't heard a peep about the bottle have we?

Re: what looked like a syringe in the bottle -- there are syringe type medicine dispensers made specifically for giving liquid medication to children. They are readily available OTC at any pharmacy, walmart, etc. Just sayin, maybe this is what was in the bottle. Will have to wait and see.

 

[IRule254]

He never made mention of whether she had a bag in her hand. I wonder what she was doing there (if she WAS there). Maybe buying some OTC slepping medicine or something?

..Perhaps she was miffed that she couldn't get the "good stuff" on the shelf anymore...maybe she tried to get some, noticed the signs on the shelf- and then went to the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist/pharmacy tech asked for her id for proof of age or asked her to sign for it....

But see, to me, that screams premeditation..becuase if she didn't want any paper trail for the meds, she must have intended to use it for a purpose other than for what it was "intended"

I know that I had no idea that some stuff had gone behind the pharmamcy counter until several months after it started
(and I have 2 young children, so I usually keep up with these types of things)

 

[BondJamesBond]

Fine with me. but I don't know how. If you can do it, great! Thanks !

Sure. Will do it and bring the link back here to make it easy to follow.

FWIW...to do this you just select the "quote" button on the post you wanna carry somewhere, highlight & copy everything that shows up in the resulting edit window (starts w/ [ QUOTE=username;#### ] & ends w/ [/ QUOTE]), then goto the thread you wanna carry the post to...and paste the contents into the new post box...adding your own comments after the ending quote function (e.g. "Carrying this quote over from the fill-in-the-blank thread for focused discussion blah, blah, blah). I don't think you wanna get in the habit of doin' this too much 'cause it can create confusion w/ the same post showing up in two threads (see TOS). But as long as your posts are clear 'bout what you're doin' and it passes a bulletin board test 'bout why you are doin' it the mods seem to be willing to tolerate it to a certain extent. I only do it when I know there is a thread that clearly fits the topic of a post...and it would make discussion easier to follow/explore in context w/ the thread(s) IYKWIM. I also usually ask the original poster (as I did w/ you) if they agree first. So...HTH.

ETA1: When I went to get your original post RC I'm havin' problems. So...I'll wait a bit. Perhaps a mod is already in the process of doing this...so hang on.

ETA2: See now that you deleted your post and you launched a "Walmart..." thread [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4256721#post4256721"](link)[/ame] . So...I'll standby for now. Leaving the instructions above and I'll punch the post alert asking a mod to delete if they deem it delete-worthy. I don't wanna contribute to TOS problems for anyone.

Re: what looked like a syringe in the bottle -- there are syringe type medicine dispensers made specifically for giving liquid medication to children. They are readily available OTC at any pharmacy, walmart, etc. Just sayin, maybe this is what was in the bottle. Will have to wait and see.

FWIW...maybe I'm connecting faulty memories...but if the "syringe in the bottle" = Gatorade "Cool Blue" bottle w/ unknown liquid substance, possible toilet paper roll, cardboard and unknown item inside roll - then consider http://websleuths.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2449362 some details discussed (including some WS lab experiments w/ toilet paper rolls :clap: )
The link is to the "Unreleased evidence..." thread and Gatorade bottle posts start 3rd post from the top of that search result screen.

So as not to contribute to OT on this thread more than I already have :bang: FWIW, I haven't done a Caylee Forum search on the keyword "syringe", but, that might yield a good thread w/ some details too...FWIW.

 

[cecybeans]

Re: what looked like a syringe in the bottle -- there are syringe type medicine dispensers made specifically for giving liquid medication to children. They are readily available OTC at any pharmacy, walmart, etc. Just sayin, maybe this is what was in the bottle. Will have to wait and see.

True, but I always used to take the Benadryl syringe with me when my daughter was little, just in case. And there was some kind of powdery residue in the bottle, IIRC. I know some kiddie medicines come with the plastic dispenser, so she might have bought something at WalMart that afternoon. The sad thing about that medicine is if you give it in the right dose, it generally makes them sleepy, but if you give a little too much it makes them hyper. Sure hope that baby was out when it all happened. If the Gatorade bottle is inculpatory evidence I am wondering what the toilet paper roll was doing there though.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Oh, my...thanks BJB...I know how tough this must be to write all this. Did we ever see the missing cell phone records...was it the 17th or the 18th we didn't see at first?

I think IKWYM, RR. Mark Furhman and some local news outlets were flashing out very limited information 'bout Casey's cell records when the story/case was first breaking and they coined the phrase "flurry" to describe Casey's 6/16 afternoon calls to Cindy, et.al. I believe they also provided (or alluded to) the activity on 6/17 at about the same time.

So, if THAT is your question, then, the answer is yes (much to my demise) we are awash in cell records now.

 

[Balthazar]

I think IKWYM, RR. Mark Furhman and some local news outlets were flashing out very limited information 'bout Casey's cell records when the story/case was first breaking and they coined the phrase "flurry" to describe Casey's 6/16 afternoon calls to Cindy, et.al. I believe they also provided (or alluded to) the activity on 6/17 at about the same time.

So, if THAT is your question, then, the answer is yes (much to my demise) we are awash in cell records now.

Bond, how does the flurry of calls fit with the 4 - 4:30pm Walmart siting of Casey and Caylee?

 

[Beatrice]

IMO The duct tape was used to make it seem that it was a kidnapping.

 

[AZlawyer]

Bond, how does the flurry of calls fit with the 4 - 4:30pm Walmart siting of Casey and Caylee?

Family communications 6/16/08:

7:45 am home phone calls Casey's cell--goes to voice mail, 0 minutes.
This could be just Casey calling her own phone to find it. No ping information for this call.

3:02 pm George's cell calls the house phone--.28 minutes, just long enough to see if someone would pick up.
This is a strange call given George's testimony that he saw Casey and Caylee leave at 12:50 pm. Cindy was at work. Who did he think would answer the phone?
3:04 pm George's cell calls Casey's cell after trying the house phone first--0 minutes but doesn't go to voice mail.
Casey is in the area of the house at this time.

4:10 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's work--.57 minutes. Probably didn't catch her at her desk and ended up speaking to receptionist, because...
4:11 pm-4:13 pm Casey's cell tries Cindy's cell 4 times--no connection?
4:14 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's work--1.63 minutes.
Casey is in the area of the house at this time, but after the call to Cindy's work immediately starts heading north--toward Tony? Gentiva (Cindy's work)? Walmart?--and texts Tony

4:25 pm Casey's cell tries Cindy's cell--no connection? Casey is near the Amscot area by now.

5:56 pm Cindy's cell calls Casey's cell--leaves 2-minute voice mail. This call shows up on Cindy's records but only shows as "voicemail waiting" on Casey's records--could she have turned her phone off?? Casey is near Tony's apartment by now.


6:31-6:32 pm Casey's cell tries Cindy's cell twice--no connection? It appears that Casey has not yet checked her voice mail.
6:32 pm Casey's cell calls the house phone--.28 minutes again, so probably just long enough to see if someone picked up before the answering machine kicked in.
6:33 pm Casey checks her voice mail, and presumably listens to Cindy's 2-minute message.
Casey is near Tony's apartment at this time.

7:06 pm Casey's cell calls the house phone--1.38 minutes. Cindy should be home by this time. Casey is near Tony's apartment. Is this when Casey supposedly told Cindy she would be staying with Caylee at "Zanny's" place?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bond, how does the flurry of calls fit with the 4 - 4:30pm Walmart siting of Casey and Caylee?

The first "flurry" 6/16 that was the focus of initial media reports occurred as Casey pulled outta G&C's beginning her trip up towards the area of Tony's apartment beginning @ 4:10PM (6 calls in ~5mins). The details in the post linked below pick it up from there...and offer some timeframes of cell inactivity and how each might fit potential trips to Walmart.

Details...if you dare ... here [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4249618&postcount=350"] (link) [/ame] :

 

[BondJamesBond]

4:14 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's work--1.63 minutes.
Casey is in the area of the house at this time, but after the call to Cindy's work immediately starts heading north--toward Tony? Gentiva (Cindy's work)? Walmart?--and texts Tony[/B]

*snipped*

THAT 1.63 min conversation is one I'd sure like to know more about.

Going along w/ "Gentiva" for the sake of discussion

Perhaps the two bookend calls were messages left w/ a receptionist...or vmails to Cindy. "Mom! Call me!" If they were electronic vmails...perhaps there was a snowball's chance of recovering them, eh?

IF Casey connected w/ Cindy @ 4:14PM...was it a refusal to take Caylee until later? At all? :waitasec:

 

[AZlawyer]

*snipped*

THAT 1.63 min conversation is one I'd sure like to know more about.

Going along w/ "Gentiva" for the sake of discussion

Perhaps the two bookend calls were messages left w/ a receptionist...or vmails to Cindy. "Mom! Call me!" If they were electronic vmails...perhaps there was a snowball's chance of recovering them, eh?

IF Casey connected w/ Cindy @ 4:14PM...was it a refusal to take Caylee until later? At all? :waitasec:

There are so many possibilities I've run through regarding these voice mails/conversations.

4:14 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's work--1.63 minutes.
Assuming for the sake of argument the "Caylee was still alive at this time" theory is correct, I'm thinking Casey either left a message or connected with Cindy at this point and thought Cindy would watch Caylee. Casey texts and calls Tony and heads north at this point, which would be consistent with thinking, "OK, I'll drop off Caylee with Mom and then go to Tony's."

[A question that occurs to me at this point: Would Casey really have been wearing a "hot" outfit for this purpose, as described by JT for the Walmart sighting? Wouldn't she want Cindy to think she was going to work? Did she change TWICE?? (work outfit to hot outfit to casual outfit seen on Blockbuster tape at 8 pm)]

4:25 pm Casey's cell tries Cindy's cell--no connection? Casey is near the Amscot area by now. Is she ready to drop off Caylee, but Cindy isn't answering? If so, maybe the first call (above) really was just a voice mail--otherwise, wouldn't Casey just have gone into the Gentiva office and found Cindy?

[And another doubt crops up: Even if she'd only left a voice mail before, and Cindy didn't answer her cell, wouldn't Casey STILL have walked into the Gentiva office with Caylee to see if Cindy could take her?]

5:56 pm Cindy's cell calls Casey's cell--leaves 2-minute voice mail. Casey is near Tony's apartment. Maybe the voice mail said "sorry I missed you, sweetie, I guess you've had to make other arrangements by now"...but there are lots of other possibilities, including something that made Casey so pi**ed that she killed Caylee after she finally listened to this message at 6:33 pm.

7:06 pm Casey's cell calls the house phone--1.38 minutes. My best guess is that this is when Casey supposedly told Cindy she would be staying with Caylee at "Zanny's" place.

 

[BondJamesBond]

There are so many possibilities I've run through regarding these voice mails/conversations.

4:14 pm Casey's cell calls Cindy's work--1.63 minutes.
Assuming for the sake of argument the "Caylee was still alive at this time" theory is correct, I'm thinking Casey either left a message or connected with Cindy at this point and thought Cindy would watch Caylee. Casey texts and calls Tony and heads north at this point, which would be consistent with thinking, "OK, I'll drop off Caylee with Mom and then go to Tony's."

[A question that occurs to me at this point: Would Casey really have been wearing a "hot" outfit for this purpose, as described by JT for the Walmart sighting? Wouldn't she want Cindy to think she was going to work? Did she change TWICE?? (work outfit to hot outfit to casual outfit seen on Blockbuster tape at 8 pm)]

4:25 pm Casey's cell tries Cindy's cell--no connection? Casey is near the Amscot area by now. Is she ready to drop off Caylee, but Cindy isn't answering? If so, maybe the first call (above) really was just a voice mail--otherwise, wouldn't Casey just have gone into the Gentiva office and found Cindy?

[And another doubt crops up: Even if she'd only left a voice mail before, and Cindy didn't answer her cell, wouldn't Casey STILL have walked into the Gentiva office with Caylee to see if Cindy could take her?]

5:56 pm Cindy's cell calls Casey's cell--leaves 2-minute voice mail. Casey is near Tony's apartment. Maybe the voice mail said "sorry I missed you, sweetie, I guess you've had to make other arrangements by now"...but there are lots of other possibilities, including something that made Casey so pi**ed that she killed Caylee after she finally listened to this message at 6:33 pm.

7:06 pm Casey's cell calls the house phone--1.38 minutes. My best guess is that this is when Casey supposedly told Cindy she would be staying with Caylee at "Zanny's" place.

AZ...I'm torn. I'll pass myself a compliment :blushing: and say that you & I seem to come @ these little mysteries in very much the same way. You possess an exceptional ability to remain open-minded to my ridiculous rantings and you stay grounded in the data to keep pushing things forward in a productive way. I thoroughly enjoy exploring them w/ you. :blowkiss:

I don't know if I have the gas in my sleuthin' tank so-to-speak - or if you or others have the interest - but, so as not to destroy JT's thread whaddya think about a "Gentiva drop-offs" thread? I recall that you, JWG, et.al. did an outstanding analysis of 6/13 pings to strongly support that it was a drop-off date ("...Accountability of Caylee" IIRC :waitasec. Or...alternatively...should we dive into this aspect of 6/16 on the daily ping thread?

I see the connection/tie to JT...so no bones 'bout it...it belongs here in that respect. I'm just lookin' down the pike and thinking we could reel off a few pages on minutia 'bout how the 6/16 event drop-off pattern compared to other days...play out some of the options you desribe above, etc.

I dunno. Whaddya think? :waitasec:

 

[trixi491]

Does JT's description of KC's outfit on the 16th match up with what she was seen wearing at Blockbuster?

 

[AZlawyer]

AZ...I'm torn. I'll pass myself a compliment :blushing: and say that you & I seem to come @ these little mysteries in very much the same way. You possess an exceptional ability to remain open-minded to my ridiculous rantings and you stay grounded in the data to keep pushing things forward in a productive way. I thoroughly enjoy exploring them w/ you. :blowkiss:

I don't know if I have the gas in my sleuthin' tank so-to-speak - or if you or others have the interest - but, so as not to destroy JT's thread whaddya think about a "Gentiva drop-offs" thread? I recall that you, JWG, et.al. did an outstanding analysis of 6/13 pings to strongly support that it was a drop-off date ("...Accountability of Caylee" IIRC :waitasec. Or...alternatively...should we dive into this aspect of 6/16 on the daily ping thread?

I see the connection/tie to JT...so no bones 'bout it...it belongs here in that respect. I'm just lookin' down the pike and thinking we could reel off a few pages on minutia 'bout how the 6/16 event drop-off pattern compared to other days...play out some of the options you desribe above, etc.

I dunno. Whaddya think? :waitasec:

I'd be happy to go over to the 6/16 thread. Just didn't want anyone who doesn't usually "hang out" there to be deprived of a timeline for the period into which JT's testimony would fit.

 

[essies]

Does JT's description of KC's outfit on the 16th match up with what she was seen wearing at Blockbuster?

Doesn't JT say she was wearing "hot" shorts? Maybe he meant "hot Pants" (dating myself:crazy as in short shorts. Here's the slideshow from Blockbuster:
http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/17841181/detail.html
Top isn't showing any cleavage that I can see-but,who knows, maybe they have already had a "quickie" before they went to rent a movie?:waitasec:

 

[Pink Panther]

It is beyond the pale to think that KC ( could have killed Caylee later than 6:56. I mean really, think about it - How could she have left Wallmart at that time, killed Caylee and met up with Tony less than an hour later at Blockbusters? So then, why the flurry of calls around 4 pm? And what about the complete calm less than an hour after she supposedly did what she did? Is it really all possible? I suppose perhaps it is (given the depravity of it all) but WoAH...It would certainly give one (and a jury member) time for pause!

MOO

 

[countzero]

*snipped*

THAT 1.63 min conversation is one I'd sure like to know more about.

Going along w/ "Gentiva" for the sake of discussion

Perhaps the two bookend calls were messages left w/ a receptionist...or vmails to Cindy. "Mom! Call me!" If they were electronic vmails...perhaps there was a snowball's chance of recovering them, eh?

IF Casey connected w/ Cindy @ 4:14PM...was it a refusal to take Caylee until later? At all? :waitasec:

Me too that 1.63 min.

What if your IF ..... had KC connected w/CA @ 4:14pm and CA couldn't take Caylee until later. KC would have done her usual stall routine and waited an hour or so for CA back at the A compound. Or KC would have shot up to Gentiva to drop Caylee off. Naw that wouldn't have worked, dropping Caylee off because of what KC was wearing and the timeframe to change wasn't there. Or was it? KC could have lied again saying she got off of laugh work early hence her clothing attire.

I have faith you will work it out and let us know.