2009.10.02 LKB & JB On Today Show

[Kentjbkent]

I can't imagine how any forensics would be found on/around the body/skeleton after total decomposition and 6 months of lying in a bug-infested swampland. So how can the case be anything but circumstantial? Does forensic evidence HAVE to exist in order to prove a murder? Or is this just LKB's way of trying to inject reasonable doubt.

Heck, forensic evidence DID exist with OJ and the defense twisted that away...even though all circumstances pointed to him doing the murders. So, if I guess my point is, is that if more forensic evidence existed in this case, LKB's job, then, would be to refute/taint it and twist it like OJ's lawyers did.

Interesting article in our local paper today of a trial in Brunswick that started this week (Christopher Barrios if any of you are aware of the crime).

SYNOPSIS of Case (clipped from article in link)

David Edenfield, 61, faces the death penalty if convicted of the March 2007 slaying of Christopher Michael Barrios (child), whose body was found in a trash bag dumped near a road. (my note....there is his confession in police interview, as mentioned in full article)

Now for interesting end of article that has me wondering about how the prosecution may present DNA results in Caylee's case...

Barbara Retzer, a forensic biologist with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, testified Thursday that swabs taken from Christopher's body were tested for DNA and compared with blood samples from all three Edenfields. She said all tests came back negative. Tests for semen also were negative.

Retzer noted that heat and humidity can degrade DNA over time. Police believe Christopher's body was left outside for a week.


Full article here: http://www.ajc.com/news/suspect-i-should-be-152550.html


So now I am wondering if the prosecution in Caylee's case may have a similar expert on board who is going to explain the degradation of the DNA in this case to explain the lack of DNA connection. Prosection is NOT commenting publicly on released documents so wonder if maybe WE are worried, but they are not.....????

 

[AZlawyer]

WFTV took their footage and blew up and enhanced some pix.

Stories up now, but not the video. Kathi did a live report that showed some better pix.

http://www.wftv.com/news/21185313/detail.html#

So now we know why they had no duct tape left by the time the police came looking for it...

 

[Muzikman]

So now we know why they had no duct tape left by the time the police came looking for it...

Yup. I'll bet all the other news stations are going to be poring over all of their footage now!

Could this be used in any kind of evidentiary way?

 

[MissJames]

Also. I am not a mother. I have to give some kind of extra lee-way to Casey, young mothers/mothers in general because of not being a mother. Those of you who have been or are young mothers...is there any lee-way that "she was a young mother?" Can the responsibility drive a girl crazy? Can it be too much?
TIA

:cow:[/QUOTE]
SNIPPED

At one time or another every mother has felt overwhelmed with a young child but not enough to kill them. Otherwise there would be a lot of dead children out there.

KC has already admitted to last seeing her daughter on June 16th. This is confirmed by her showing up at Blockbuster with TonE alone. For someone to claim that their child was kidnapped and show no concern whatsoever to the people around her, go with her new boyfriend to rent movies about a child being kidnapped and THEN after viewing it talking the boyfriend into missing his class the next morning so they could "you know" sleep in without the sleep part and have this boyfriend testify to that in court. What will the jurors really think about that. This shows detachment and if she were THAT detached she would be capable of getting rid of the child and not looking back, which it appears she has done.

She still claims to be "not guilty" of the check fraud charges.....look at the evidence there. They have her on video and she stupidly signed her own name to someone else's check. If she still denies these charges what would make anyone feel she is telling the truth about the death of her child.[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Broken quote !mod alert I can't fix it.Sorry


If KC was starting to feel overwhelmed it was because Caylee was almost 3 and TALKING.She could now tell Cindy and George about her day,what she'd been doing,who she was with.
That's one reason why I feel the duct tape and heart sticker were so symbolic.It was to shut Caylee up!
KC was also starting to feel the pressure from stealing from her grandparents.She probably thought her grandmother wouldn't even notice .
Things were starting to crash in KCland.

 

[essies]

GAME OVER-THANK YOU GEORGE!!!!

And THANK YOU KATHI BELICH!!

 

[mountaintime]

A question for the lawyers among us...
Could the judge issue a gag order for this case?

If he can....shouldn't he?

I do remember that Baez did NOT want a gag order ( now we know why),
but all this spewing forth of inaccurate information from the defense seems outrageous and prejudicial.

Can't Strickland stop this nonsense..??

 

[Brini]

Also. I am not a mother. I have to give some kind of extra lee-way to Casey, young mothers/mothers in general because of not being a mother. Those of you who have been or are young mothers...is there any lee-way that "she was a young mother?" Can the responsibility drive a girl crazy? Can it be too much?
TIA

:cow:

SNIPPED

At one time or another every mother has felt overwhelmed with a young child but not enough to kill them. Otherwise there would be a lot of dead children out there.

KC has already admitted to last seeing her daughter on June 16th. This is confirmed by her showing up at Blockbuster with TonE alone. For someone to claim that their child was kidnapped and show no concern whatsoever to the people around her, go with her new boyfriend to rent movies about a child being kidnapped and THEN after viewing it talking the boyfriend into missing his class the next morning so they could "you know" sleep in without the sleep part and have this boyfriend testify to that in court. What will the jurors really think about that. This shows detachment and if she were THAT detached she would be capable of getting rid of the child and not looking back, which it appears she has done.

She still claims to be "not guilty" of the check fraud charges.....look at the evidence there. They have her on video and she stupidly signed her own name to someone else's check. If she still denies these charges what would make anyone feel she is telling the truth about the death of her child.[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Broken quote !mod alert I can't fix it.Sorry


If KC was starting to feel overwhelmed it was because Caylee was almost 3 and TALKING.She could now tell Cindy and George about her day,what she'd been doing,who she was with.
That's one reason why I feel the duct tape and heart sticker were so symbolic.It was to shut Caylee up!
KC was also starting to feel the pressure from stealing from her grandparents.She probably thought her grandmother wouldn't even notice .
Things were starting to crash in KCland.[/QUOTE]

Yep!

Soon Caylee would be able to say that there was no nanny, and that they were staying with Uncle Whomever.

 

[Mystic]

I can't even bring myself to watch this video yet. Just reading some of the outlines of it annoys me. To me, they are insisting it be tried in the public and this is ridiculous. And Jose saying the 'truth' will come out at Trial... well why doesn't he comply with the SA Motion and give them 'this very documentation'? (have they hit the 15 day mark yet?)

If the jury is a represtation of the general public... 31 days, never reporting her daughter missing, then add no verifiable facts of where Caylee was pretty much sums up her involvement. KC was responsible for this child and showed no concern, remorse or offered any truth. Defense has nothing, absolutely nothing to do but attempt to blow holes in any evidence SA brings to trial. I don't see a Jury sitting and buying this.... anymore then we are now. With everything I've seen, there is no one else but KC who could have done this. And imo when she is convicted of murdering her daughter, I believe that her horrific callous attitude after-the-fact is going to get her the DP. I'm thinking it is not going to be any different then SP's case, they are going to make an exception and an example of her.. and give this young gal the DP. jmo

 

[zambonizam]

LKB said not reporting your daughter kiddnapped and partying while she is gone is just a "stupid thing people do".

Funny how you can twist the truth just a little.

Well I thought the "stupid thing people do" was more like what Davi* Letterma*and his co-workers engaged in!

Seriously, LKB stating that just proves that people do stupid
things.

 

[MissJames]

Yeah I could talk about oj all day. Whether you for the defense or not, you have to admint that Barry Scheck tore apart that evidence. He did not twist it, he showed the truth. Those techs were wiping sweat off thier forehead before they would collect a swatch. It was shameful. The state met thier match on that case. Maybe here too. I wouldn't be selling these defense lawyers down the river, thats exactly the way they want you to think.

But he just couldn't get a break after that could he? He's sitting in jail now .

 

[Tiki]

So now we know why they had no duct tape left by the time the police came looking for it...

That was my very first thought too, when I saw MM's post.
I also have a recollection of a video where GA was ripping duct tape with his teeth - I noticed b/c I have done that myself when I had no handy tool.
Maybe some station will come up with more video.


.

 

[Tiki]

Here's the link to the video I saw - it's still on YouTube.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzxDnIcdbaA"]YouTube - Nancy Grace 4/2/09 Part 4[/ame]

 

[MissJames]

Well I thought the "stupid thing people do" was more like what Davi* Letterma*and his co-workers engaged in!

Seriously, LKB stating that just proves that people do stupid
things.

I couldn't bear to watch the LKB interview,but she made a huge error in judgement ,IMO. I hope and pray she says that to the jury! It will show LKB for what she really is. Any normal person sitting on that jury will know it's not "just a stupid thing people do". That's an insult to the listener's intelligence and they will not like or TRUST what LKB has to say after that.

 

[faefrost]

I always wondered why LKB's husband went on nancy grace to explain how amazing duct tape was for evidence at a crime scene. IMO at the time, he was going against what LKB and JB would want him to say. After the latest doc. dump, perhaps he was actually helping them in a round about way.

Is it possible the defense knew the outcome months and months ago?

Actually that was before his wife joined the dream team. Remember she was brought on board once the DP was brought back, and even then it took weeks. Dr. B made a ton of statements on the various shows that may come back to haunt him at home later.

 

[MissJames]

That was my very first thought too, when I saw MM's post.
I also have a recollection of a video where GA was ripping duct tape with his teeth - I noticed b/c I have done that myself when I had no handy tool.
Maybe some station will come up with more video.


.

I would be very interested to know if
A) LE asked GA and CA if they had duct tape
B) what the answer was

 

[faefrost]

I would be very interested to know if
A) LE asked GA and CA if they had duct tape
B) what the answer was

Wasn't duct tape something that was specifically being looked for at the home in at least one of the searches?

 

[TheMeaningOfItAll]

I would say that mothers like Cindy and Casey do not have the strength(?)whatever is missing to take that step and be extra self-less enough to know when they have "had enough" and do what is needed to correct that. Is that ignorance or laziness? Do some women have a stronger "motherly" instinct? I think some men have more of a mothering instinct than some women. Maybe some women just did not and do not want their children any more, but society says that is taboo...still no reason/excuse to hurt their children, as far as people like us think. But, I am maybe beginning to understand that they do not think that way?...Obviously they don't?

With Cindy and Casey...was this a momentary thing? No, I think it was and is the whole way they approached being "mothers." I have a lot of deep feelings about this, of course-its part of what you ask yourself about a case like this, part of what I am trying to understand how mothers of all people can hurt their children-and should we continue to call them mothers for the sake of our own sanity? It gets confusing.

Cindy is blown away by Casey and knows she could never kill her child/grandchild in the traditional sense-she likes to slowly drain the life from those she "loves." Casey works quicker than that, plus Cindy draws her energy from those she "loves" and Casey gets her energy from the next "big thing."

:cow:

ETA: To stay ot...this interview today with Casey's lawyers might lead a person to believe or question thinking that Casey was a "bad mom" that what she did was the same "stupid things" "everybody does." And, their spin gives me a spin that I wanted to iron out, their tactics almost kind of work...for a minute. Scary to admit. Sorry to admit.

I believe your statements about Casey and Cindy are dead on re: sucking the life out of people. Regarding your statement about some women's mothering instinct, you are totally correct. I would take it even farther and say some women were just wired to not have ANY mothering instinct. My own mother falling into this category. Some women just didn't sign the "natural mother instinct" clause when they were created. I'm sure there are many reasons why these women choose to have/keep children in spite of the lack of "mothering instinct." IMO, Casey went through the motions of doing the "fun" part of having a baby--the small, snuggly, doll that was Caylee, whom she could dress up and show off. As the baby grew and became able to verbalize her wants and needs, begin potty training, making messes, etc. she probably became disenchanted with the title of Mom. Also, I question how involved Casey really was in raising Caylee. Sounds like Cindy and George did most of it. I wonder if GA and CA were getting tired and stressed out from the responsibility of caring for Caylee and were putting pressure on Casey to be more responsible. Casey, having that missing "wire" somewhere, and not being truly bonded with her own child, saw Caylee as disposable. There are many women in our society like Casey. Most of them, though, don't go as far as murder. Our society really doesn't accept or understand that some women don't bond with their children and could care less about them. We think that just because you are a woman, you are supposed to naturally be nurturing. But, like you said, not being a naturally nurturing person is in no way an excuse for hurting or killing another human being.

(making a hasty beeline back to the original topic)
As I was watching the videos today, I just had to chuckle. They need to ask Casey to help them brush up on their acting skills. The whole interview just came accross as desperate. Guess the change of venue is out the window now that they have tainted the entire U.S. jury pool. *doh*

 

[nyvictoria]

I can't imagine how any forensics would be found on/around the body/skeleton after total decomposition and 6 months of lying in a bug-infested swampland. So how can the case be anything but circumstantial? Does forensic evidence HAVE to exist in order to prove a murder? Or is this just LKB's way of trying to inject reasonable doubt.

Heck, forensic evidence DID exist with OJ and the defense twisted that away...even though all circumstances pointed to him doing the murders. So, if I guess my point is, is that if more forensic evidence existed in this case, LKB's job, then, would be to refute/taint it and twist it like OJ's lawyers did.

Yep, it's their job to try to whittle away the State's case. They're doing a lousy job and they're doing it publicly but they're going to continue to try. IMHO, the harder they try the more they make Casey sound guilty as sin. They never should have fought that gag order :shakehead:

Juries do expect strong forensics but I believe the circumstantial evidence in this case will far outweigh any lack of forensic evidence. The jury will understand the weather degraded the body and the crime scene and greatly affected the ability to collect dna, fingerprints, fibers, etc.

IMO, the OJ defense got their not guilty verdict mainly by convincing the jury that LE (Furhman, in particular) were incompetent, vindictive racists who planted and/or manufactured evidence. I was not surprised at the verdict. I was angry and disappointed but not surprised.

By the time this goes to trial, the State will have all their ducks in a row. They will present an excellent circumstantial case, with solid forensics. They may not have item after item of evidence but what the do have will be damning. I believe we have not seen the best of the evidence yet. The defense has already let it be know what and how they intend to challenge the State's case. JB, et al can whine all they want about junk science but we've come a long way from the OJ trial. If the State had just one strand of hair from Caylee's decomposed body from the stinky trunk (and we know they have more), it would suffice because...

31 days!!
partying til her panties melted!!
forging checks to pay for "party materials"!!
Cindy, not Casey, calling 911
Cindy, "What have you done?"
lies!! lies!! lies!!
the stinky car!!
the first call home from jail, not to mention the visitation videos!!

That's just to name a few of Casey's missteps. Juries accept good forensic evidence as fact. The State has the experts to back them up. Juries do not like smug, remorseless defendants and their equally despicable, loud-mouthed attorneys who say idiotic things like, "it was just a stupid thing to do" (paraphrased).

 

[Mystic]

Stupid thing people do???? The only ones that I remember reading about that didn't report their child missing, had something to do with the child's demise.

:furious:

ain't that the truth!

 

[ZsaZsa]

Hello WS
Quote Respect Mendara

Thank you for posting the questions my mind is too confused right now to remember.

Re: "the DNA being explained away as Casey being her mother." Yes! This has been a bee running in my mind but I could not spit it out as a thought. As a juror I would not be convinced either way about Casey's DNA being found on/or near Caylee. The duct tape...yeah. If there had been a clear print on the other side of the tape and it was Casey's-I would be very compelled toward "Casey killed Caylee." I wonder why Casey's fingerprints weren't found on the duct tape?

I have said it before, I would have to hear Casey testify if I were a juror on this case before I would be able to give my vote. So I am hoping with you that Casey does take the stand. If I were innocent I sure would take the stand.

Also. I am not a mother. I have to give some kind of extra lee-way to Casey, young mothers/mothers in general because of not being a mother. Those of you who have been or are young mothers...is there any lee-way that "she was a young mother?" Can the responsibility drive a girl crazy? Can it be too much?

TIA

:cow:

I'm not sure exactly what she would be overwhelmed with- Juggling a job, a home, and child care responsibilities? No, not that.
Having to care for the child unaided? No, her mother gave the child a lot more care than she ever did. Casey's friends relate phone calls from Cindy ( who did have a job and a home to manage) asking her to come home so she could get some sleep. According to her My space page, Cindy fed her,clothed her, provided medical care. What exactly did Casey do for her?
What responsibilities do you think might have been overwhelming for her?