2009.11.06 Forensic Entomology Report Released #2

[semisweet]

Hi all! Been reading for some time, jumping in for the first time. I am sickened by the latest info released.

I truly hope that this bug evidence along with the syringe and gatorade bottle evidence will seal the deal. However, I'm absolutely sure that with the bugs this will be a battle of the experts, as in the David Westerfield trial. Dr. Haskell testified for the defense in that one.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Westerfield"]An exerpt from a wiki article about that case;[/ame]

Entomology

The science of entomology was a major focus during the trial. Three entomologists, consulted by the defense, testified that flies first laid eggs on Van Dam's body sometime in mid-February, long after Westerfield was under police surveillance.[10] On the other hand, one of these entomologist, David Faulkner, conceded under cross-examination that his time estimate was based mostly on the fly larvae, and that his research could not determine a maximum time her body was outside. The other forensic entomologist, Neal Haskell, using a weather chart prepared by forensic artist James Gripp, stated that the warm temperatures made it likely that insects immediately colonized Danielle's corpse. The third entomologist, Dr. Robert Hall, estimated initial insect infestation occurred between February 12 and February 23. However, under cross-examination Hall acknowledged that the insect infestation of the corpse wasn't "typical" because so few maggots were found in the girl's head. Prosecutor Jeff Dusek questioned Hall about why his calculations were compiled through a method less favorable to the prosecution and why he criticized the findings of the prosecution's entomologist, Dr. Madison Lee Goff, and favored the entomologist hired by the defense. Goff testified the infestation may have occurred February 9 to February 14, but stressed that other factors may have delayed insect arrival.[11] He explained that a covering, such as a blanket, might have kept flies at bay initially, but no covering was found, and he later said the longest delay by such a shroud was two and a half days.[12]


We can expect the same in this case, and for sure it's going to get heated once the trial begins.

Thank you to everyone who posts here, I have learned so much.

 

[RR0004]

Hi all! Been reading for some time, jumping in for the first time. I am sickened by the latest info released.

I truly hope that this bug evidence along with the syringe and gatorade bottle evidence will seal the deal. However, I'm absolutely sure that with the bugs this will be a battle of the experts, as in the David Westerfield trial. Dr. Haskell testified for the defense in that one.

An exerpt from a wiki article about that case;

Entomology

The science of entomology was a major focus during the trial. Three entomologists, consulted by the defense, testified that flies first laid eggs on Van Dam's body sometime in mid-February, long after Westerfield was under police surveillance.[10] On the other hand, one of these entomologist, David Faulkner, conceded under cross-examination that his time estimate was based mostly on the fly larvae, and that his research could not determine a maximum time her body was outside. The other forensic entomologist, Neal Haskell, using a weather chart prepared by forensic artist James Gripp, stated that the warm temperatures made it likely that insects immediately colonized Danielle's corpse. The third entomologist, Dr. Robert Hall, estimated initial insect infestation occurred between February 12 and February 23. However, under cross-examination Hall acknowledged that the insect infestation of the corpse wasn't "typical" because so few maggots were found in the girl's head. Prosecutor Jeff Dusek questioned Hall about why his calculations were compiled through a method less favorable to the prosecution and why he criticized the findings of the prosecution's entomologist, Dr. Madison Lee Goff, and favored the entomologist hired by the defense. Goff testified the infestation may have occurred February 9 to February 14, but stressed that other factors may have delayed insect arrival.[11] He explained that a covering, such as a blanket, might have kept flies at bay initially, but no covering was found, and he later said the longest delay by such a shroud was two and a half days.[12]


We can expect the same in this case, and for sure it's going to get heated once the trial begins.

Thank you to everyone who posts here, I have learned so much.

I think the bug guy's testimony along with the plant guy's testimony will conclusively show that Caylee was there from June.

Great first post! Welcome!!

 

[enelram]

I agree with Snow Walker that the freezer in the garage held the body temporarily. In one of the Anthony's depositions (Cindy, I believe) LE asked a couple of ODD questions about the freezer and I suspected at that time that he had a very good reason for the question(s).... something like What was the freezer used for and What type things were stored in the freezer. I had an inkling at the time that they were targeting the freezer as storage of the body for a time.

 

[niaa]

I can't even fathom the creature that could do this to a child.

Poor Caylee

 

[QB.]

what were the dates of the shopping trips, especially the one with the purchase of the big supply of paper towel ?

 

[MissJames]

OK, I understand that the paper towels would be attractive to the bugs, but is it really possible for a mere paper towel to clean a decomp spill so well that a gnat size bug would not find something attractive where the decomp spill originally was?
It doesn't seem likely to me that that would be the case. I would think there would be insects in the trunk itself had there been a decomp spill. Of course I could be wrong, thats why I am bringing it up. Just doesnt seem like paper towels could really do a good enough job of cleaning up the decomp in my opinion.

The experts will be able to pull it all together for you at trial.The bugs DO find their way to decomp,even when in a coffin 6 feet underground.That's why some of them are called coffin flies. There was decomp on the paper towels .Cindy and George had access to that trunk and likely cleaned up .That's most likey why LE took all of their vacuum cleaners .I just hope it wasn't too late.
IMO it's silly to keep trying to seperate Caylee's decomposing body with the trunk.I think jurors will take offense if JB tries to tell them that decomp was not Caylee. If Caylee had never been found,then maybe.However the child was found dead and the last place she was seen was in that car with her mother.There were no dead pigs,no dead squirrels.The child,an occupant of THAT car,her mother's,was found dead.Decomp in trunk.You just can't get away from that.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

On page 10453, it says coffin fly was recovered from the trunk and from the white trash bag. The entire report is based on this. I looked everywhere in that report and could not find any samples that were submitted from the trunk, only samples from the white trash bag. I don't understand this.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

What my concern is over not finding any samples from the interior of the trunk is this, the white trash bag had been removed from the trunk and placed into a dumpster. Who knows what was in that dumpster. If the insects in and around the dumpster infiltrated the white trash bag, how do we know the lab report is accurate unless we have supporting evidence from samples in the interior of the trunk. Won't the defense simply say the whole report is tainted because the samples used could have come from a dumpster?

 

[lizzysf]

What my concern is over not finding any samples from the interior of the trunk is this, the white trash bag had been removed from the trunk and placed into a dumpster. Who knows what was in that dumpster. If the insects in and around the dumpster infiltrated the white trash bag, how do we know the lab report is accurate unless we have supporting evidence from samples in the interior of the trunk. Won't the defense simply say the whole report is tainted because the samples used could have come from a dumpster?

I forget, how long was the bag in the dumpster before retrieved by LE?

 

[Hot Dogs]

What my concern is over not finding any samples from the interior of the trunk is this, the white trash bag had been removed from the trunk and placed into a dumpster. Who knows what was in that dumpster. If the insects in and around the dumpster infiltrated the white trash bag, how do we know the lab report is accurate unless we have supporting evidence from samples in the interior of the trunk. Won't the defense simply say the whole report is tainted because the samples used could have come from a dumpster?

The analysis of the trunk bugs must be in a different report. With this report, we only get detailed info on the trash bag bugs.

IIRC, the trash bag never made it into the dumpster at the tow yard. It was thrown alongside the dumpster. Regardless, the bug life stages inside could be evaluated for age. Expert might say, "No, these flies did not enter the bag while it was sitting next to the dumpster. These entered the bag long before that."

What intrigues me is that large numbers of these flies (in all life stages) were found inside that trash bag. What exactly were they feeding on in there? Was it strictly the residue on the paper towels, or was there some food in the bag? Those maggots could eat bits of discarded foods until there is nothing left to see, yes?

The species of phorid fly that they found is omnivorous. It does not strictly feed on older dead bodies, and will go for food trash including vegetable matter and fruits, juices, etc.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I forget, how long was the bag in the dumpster before retrieved by LE?

I don't have a link, but I am pretty sure the car was picked up by GA in the afternoon, and the white trash bag was recovered by LE later that evening around 10ish. I could be wrong. I would think any length of time over a few minutes would allow insects in the dumpster prior to the white trash bag being place there would be sufficient for at least some of the insects to infest the white trash bag.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

The analysis of the trunk bugs must be in a different report. With this report, we only get detailed info on the trash bag bugs.

IIRC, the trash bag never made it into the dumpster at the tow yard. It was thrown alongside the dumpster. Regardless, the bug life stages inside could be evaluated for age. Expert might say, "No, these flies did not enter the bag while it was sitting next to the dumpster. These entered the bag long before that."

What intrigues me is that large numbers of these flies (in all life stages) were found inside that trash bag. What exactly were they feeding on in there? Was it strictly the residue on the paper towels, or was there some food in the bag? Those maggots could eat bits of discarded foods until there is nothing left to see, yes?

The species of phorid fly that they found is omnivorous. It does not strictly feed on older dead bodies, and will go for food trash including vegetable matter and fruits, juices, etc.

Thank you very much for your quick response. So, I can most likely expect future entomology reports with samples from the interior of the trunk in a future doc dump.
That being the case, I will now retreat back into my shell. lol

 

[lizzysf]

I don't have a link, but I am pretty sure the car was picked up by GA in the afternoon, and the white trash bag was recovered by LE later that evening around 10ish. I could be wrong. I would think any length of time over a few minutes would allow insects in the dumpster prior to the white trash bag being place there would be sufficient for at least some of the insects to infest the white trash bag.

I wonder if there was any forethought on that causing LE to survey everything else in that dumpster and we just haven't heard? Was there any other mention of the dumpster details in any of the docs?

 

[lizzysf]

The analysis of the trunk bugs must be in a different report. With this report, we only get detailed info on the trash bag bugs.

IIRC, the trash bag never made it into the dumpster at the tow yard. It was thrown alongside the dumpster. Regardless, the bug life stages inside could be evaluated for age. Expert might say, "No, these flies did not enter the bag while it was sitting next to the dumpster. These entered the bag long before that."

What intrigues me is that large numbers of these flies (in all life stages) were found inside that trash bag. What exactly were they feeding on in there? Was it strictly the residue on the paper towels, or was there some food in the bag? Those maggots could eat bits of discarded foods until there is nothing left to see, yes?

The species of phorid fly that they found is omnivorous. It does not strictly feed on older dead bodies, and will go for food trash including vegetable matter and fruits, juices, etc.

I think it actually went into the dumpster IIRC... i'll have to look for the doc..

 

[Bforster]

OMG I hope CA has to read this.

Oh I believe that the A's have already poor over these docs when they were released... Maybe thats why the boat trip... Make no mistake about it they do want to know what evidence is stacking up agaisnt thier darling KC, and what "half truths" they can all agree upon to say "on the record" to make it seem that SODDI theroy is the other half of the "half truth" They really are more worried I think about themselfs and what people must be thinking about them and thier famliy. thier mission to save KC is really a misson for CA to save face... IMHO

 

[Hot Dogs]

The whole narrative story of the dumpster is in old doc dumps. LE understood the situation, talked to the tow yard staff, and determined that there was no reason to get anything other than the discarded white trash bag that was originally in the trunk.

What else would there have been to take from the tow yard?

 

[steadychick]

With the large numbers of insects found at different stages of development in the white trash bag, wouldn't you expect to see quite a few in the trunk itself, especially on the decomp spot? IIRC, at least a few maggots were found there by LE. Don't remember where I saw this. If so few were found in the trunk, wouldn't this be just further proof that the trunk was thoroughly cleaned and vacuumed. It's infuriating how the A's have covered for KC and what they have gotten away with so far.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I have a question. TIA for anyone who can answer it for me. All the samples sent to the bug guy were samples from the trash bag in the trunk, at least all the samples I could find. Were there any samples sent to the bug guy that were actually from the trunk itself? If so, does anyone have the page number on the report? The reason I am asking is that I find it odd that all the samples were from the white trash bag.

If you read Dr Haskell's report - on Page 7 it mentions the presence of a great many pupae and flies in the trunk, apart from those in the trash bag.
Pupae and adult flies were also seen in the trunk on initial entry on July 16th 08, leading to additional searches for insect evidence. They were everywhere, but if you read the comments regarding the purging of body fluids and the dates where Caylee was most likely to have been removed from the trunk, you will see why the majority were found in the trash bag.

 

[Hot Dogs]

I think it actually went into the dumpster IIRC... i'll have to look for the doc..

My recollection is that the bag was tossed over a fence towards a dumpster but didn't actually make it into the dumpster. When recovered by LE, it was still sitting near the dumpster.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Oh I believe that the A's have already poor over these docs when they were released... Maybe thats why the boat trip... Make no mistake about it they do want to know what evidence is stacking up agaisnt thier darling KC, and what "half truths" they can all agree upon to say "on the record" to make it seem that SODDI theroy is the other half of the "half truth" They really are more worried I think about themselfs and what people must be thinking about them and thier famliy. thier mission to save KC is really a misson for CA to save face... IMHO

So far their entire strategy has been to blame someone 'out there' . Far too much evidence has been recovered that directly connects to Casey, to convince a Jury otherwise though, and they know it. Just another despicable ploy. I can see them happily standing by while some innocent person is blamed for this- vis all the references to Jesse ...